This is Pretty Sick...

[vroom]

[quote]Sepukku wrote:
Palestinians are the real victims of this conflict.[/quote]

Yes, I would agree, they are. However, Hezbollah shouldn’t have declared war on Israel. The people of Lebanon should not have tacitly allowed Hezbollah to conduct military activities there. That was rather stupid and risky.

Israel have one of the most elite armed forces and intelligence operations in the world, yet they pretend as though a puppet government who just recently suffered an assasination can really do anything about terrorists in their country?

See, I disagree a bit here. A government has an obligation to govern. If it can’t govern, and portions of it’s own country are engaging in acts of war, which it can’t control, there will be trouble.

Israel has consistently adopted an overkill policy which uses collateral damage of innocent people to instil maximal fear in anyone in proximity of dangerous ideals that threaten Israel. This way they hope to scare innocent and guilty people alike away from adopting said ideals. This is called terrorism. It has been just another facet of war, until the Bush Administration changed the meaning of the word so that they could use it to rally support. Terrorist this Terorrist that: War is Terrorism.

War is hell. I think terrorists and others like that need to realize that they will not gain through terrorism. I don’t hear you complaining about ongoing rocket launches from Hezbollah into Israel?

[vroom]

[quote]Sepukku wrote:
God, I’m sorry, I’m still not over how idiotic the statement is. It sounds like some moron’s attempt on CNN to save face during an interview.[/quote]

It’s not stupid at all. While of course it is good to understand the past, at some point we have to actually let go of the past to move forward towards a peaceful solution.

Pointing fingers from side to side will simply allow everyone to justify everything from today to eternity. If you can’t see that or don’t understand that I don’t care.

For example, does the US still hate Germany? Does the US still hate Japan? No. The people of the US have basically left the past behind and developed friendship with previous enemies. They focused on the road ahead instead of the road behind…

Sorry you don’t see it that way, but again, your lack of understanding doesn’t make it stupid.

[vroom]

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Ooh, but you’re right. We should continue to widen their recruiting pool considerable. We should give them the propaganda opportunities to convince the moderates. We shouldn’t skip on any opportunity to do this.

Also, we should excuse any Israeli kidnapping Palestinian civilians, buldozing their homes, bombing entire city blocks actions.
Only this way can we win this war.
Thanks for opening my eyes.
[/quote]

Wreckless, regardless of the fact that over time both sides have been screwing up big time it is important for the world that terrorism no longer be an effective means of influencing world policy.

This will also mean that people need to negotiate and be considerate of other peoples concerns, to avoid creation a state of desperation leading to terrorism.

However, since most terrorist seems to be based on religion instead of specific greviances, I don’t think terrorism would be very prevalent without such a religious influence.

[Sepukku]

[quote]vroom wrote:
War is hell. I think terrorists and others like that need to realize that they will not gain through terrorism. I don’t hear you complaining about ongoing rocket launches from Hezbollah into Israel?[/quote]

Straw man?

[Sepukku]

[quote]vroom wrote:

It’s not stupid at all. While of course it is good to understand the past, at some point we have to actually let go of the past to move forward towards a peaceful solution.
[/quote]

Sure. People have to move on. What a revolutionary novelty. You?re a genius. We can fix the problems of the world with this simple solution!

I?ve already said that I have no intentions of providing a solution, and was merely trying to show that the use of Israeli force is no better than that of Hezbollah.

For example, does the US still hate Germany? Does the US still hate Japan? No. The people of the US have basically left the past behind and developed friendship with previous enemies. They focused on the road ahead instead of the road behind…

So why doesn?t the Western World leave the past behind with Al Qaeda and make friends, focus on the road ahead, instead of the road behind and make the world a better place?

Sure, that would be best, but is it going to happen? Should it? How can it?

[vroom]

[quote]Sepukku wrote:
So why doesn?t the Western World leave the past behind with Al Qaeda and make friends, focus on the road ahead, instead of the road behind and make the world a better place?[/quote]

See, this is a good question, sort of. The problem is, that Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization that cannot be satisfied. Would you suggest the US just ignore Al Qaeda while it strikes from time to time?

The nature of the problem is that you don’t get to make the choice to stop the conflict, because the other side is not willing to stop.

Sure, that would be best, but is it going to happen? Should it? How can it?

I think it is important for people to realize that the result of terrorism is war. That terrorism results in suffering by the populace whom the terrorists hide within.

People, worldwide, need to understand that their goals cannot be achieved through terrorism. They need to understand that only harm, to themselves, will come from harboring or becoming terrorists.

Then, possibly, people will eventually reject terrorism as a non-productive way to make their demands known to legitimate governments around the world.

If on the other hand we legitimize terrorism, thereby making it effective, we will never see an end to it. It doesn’t matter what organizational name you put on it (Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, etc), there will always be another wiling to let the ends justify the means and bomb civilians somewhere for a political cause.

While I don’t like war, I find it more approrpiate and easier to deal with in terms of international affairs and political issues. Having any single person able to commit suicide, letting their whacko agenda drive entire nations, is not appropriate.

It’s the difference between the rule of law, the rule of government and anarchy.

[The_Rabbi]

Is there any kind of investigation on why grade schoolers are allowed anywhere near a military position ?

My dad was allowed to live on the base when Gramps was still active. Plus, that ordnance is likely miles away from the shit.

And what kind of PSYOP is this? It’s called MORALE. If your people aren’t behind you and hoping you succeed, you won’t. That’s not propaganda.

[doogie]

They all do military service.

Each of those kids will be fighting these same assholes someday if it isn’t handled now. That’s what’s sick.

[k_elkouhen]

[quote]The_Rabbi wrote:

Is there any kind of investigation on why grade schoolers are allowed anywhere near a military position ?

My dad was allowed to live on the base when Gramps was still active. Plus, that ordnance is likely miles away from the shit.

And what kind of PSYOP is this? It’s called MORALE. If your people aren’t behind you and hoping you succeed, you won’t. That’s not propaganda.[/quote]

If it was a soldier doing that, I’d have absolutely no problem with it.

If it was an adult civilian I’d agree with you and that it’d be for morale. Again no problem.

However, being that these are grade schoolers, that this operation was obviously authorised by the IDF and that Hezbollah is not distinctly cited as the target, if I was Lebanese, I would read the following message :

“We hate you, we are raising our children to hate you AND don’t you ever expect to live in peace.”

[blck3jack]

I’m sick and tired of the bullshit about civillians. THIS IS WAR. CIVILLIANS GET KILLED. THEY GET KILLED BECAUSE ALL PEOPLE IN THE ARMY WERE ONCE CIVLLIANS. THE ONLY WAY TO WIN A WAR IS TO BREAK THE ENEMY"S MORALE OR KILL SO MANY CIVILLIANS THAT THEY MUST SURRENDER. THIS IS HOW EVERY WAR WAS WON UP UNTILL VIETNAM. WE WON WWI, WWII, and OUR OWN CIVIL WAR BY KILLING CIVLIANS AND WAGING WHAT"S CALLED TOTAL WAR.

The use of disproportionate force, kiss my ass. IF you want to mess with a modern military then their gonna use everything in their power to KILL you. WAR isn’t NICE. ITS WAR. WERE NOT IN COLONIAL TIMES. We don’t line up on an open field and shoot at each other face to face. This is what your saying: we need a code of WAR. WAR IS WAR, if you’re going to play the game, then you’re playing hardball.

[vroom]

[quote]blck1jack wrote:
Rant, rant, rant.
[/quote]

Targeting civilians, on purpose, is akin to terrorism.

There have always been codes of conduct in war and there are now. There always will be.

However, I agree, there is no such thing as a disproportionate response. It’s war. The scale is overwhelming force to minimize casualties and speed victory.

[The_Rabbi]

Israel has really gone out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. They warned all Lebanese civilians to get the fuck out of Dodge days in advance of the upcoming big assualt.

Can we say the same about the groups whose modus operandi is to send a man(or in same cases, a woman or child) strapped with explosives into a market, a pizza parlor, a bus, or a bat mitzvah hall? I doubt it.

This war is ugly on both sides, but the moral high ground undoubtably belongs to Israel.

[The_Rabbi]

[quote]k.elkouhen wrote:

However, being that these are grade schoolers, that this operation was obviously authorised by the IDF and that Hezbollah is not distinctly cited as the target, if I was Lebanese, I would read the following message :

“We hate you, we are raising our children to hate you AND don’t you ever expect to live in peace.”[/quote]

Can you read what they’re writing on those bombs?

Maybe that’s how you’d see it, but maybe it’s not how Lebanese are. Nonetheless, I don’t think Israel cares either way.

But perhaps a Lebanese would view it as their saving grace, the savior from outside coming to wipe out the violent fascist militia that has infiltrated their country and their government, and created a state within a state? Unless of course, said Lebanese supports Hezbollah, in which case they can go pound sand.

How can the Lebanese ever possibly expect to live in peace if they permit a group whose goal is the destruction of Israel to be massed right on the Israeli border? Either they want Hezbollah there, in which case they deserve whatever they get, or they don’t want Hezbollah there, in which case this Israeli effort to wipe them out should be a welcome favor. Either they let them stay and deserve it, or they can’t get rid of them and need Israel’s help to do so.

Either way, I don’t think you’re looking at this very clearly.

[Wreckless]

[quote]The_Rabbi wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:

However, being that these are grade schoolers, that this operation was obviously authorised by the IDF and that Hezbollah is not distinctly cited as the target, if I was Lebanese, I would read the following message :

“We hate you, we are raising our children to hate you AND don’t you ever expect to live in peace.”

Can you read what they’re writing on those bombs?

Maybe that’s how you’d see it, but maybe it’s not how Lebanese are. Nonetheless, I don’t think Israel cares either way.

But perhaps a Lebanese would view it as their saving grace, the savior from outside coming to wipe out the violent fascist militia that has infiltrated their country and their government, and created a state within a state? Unless of course, said Lebanese supports Hezbollah, in which case they can go pound sand.

How can the Lebanese ever possibly expect to live in peace if they permit a group whose goal is the destruction of Israel to be massed right on the Israeli border? Either they want Hezbollah there, in which case they deserve whatever they get, or they don’t want Hezbollah there, in which case this Israeli effort to wipe them out should be a welcome favor. Either they let them stay and deserve it, or they can’t get rid of them and need Israel’s help to do so.

Either way, I don’t think you’re looking at this very clearly.[/quote]

You realla ARE a self-rigtheous bastard aren’t you?

[Wreckless]

[quote]vroom wrote:
blck1jack wrote:
Rant, rant, rant.

Targeting civilians, on purpose, is akin to terrorism.

There have always been codes of conduct in war and there are now. There always will be.

However, I agree, there is no such thing as a disproportionate response. It’s war. The scale is overwhelming force to minimize casualties and speed victory.[/quote]

Well, I wish the Israeli’s good luck with their speedy victory. But somehow it always manages to escape them. It has escaped them for about 50 years now. But they believe firmly that they will finally make it tomorrow. Or the day after at least.

[k_elkouhen]

[quote]The_Rabbi wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:

However, being that these are grade schoolers, that this operation was obviously authorised by the IDF and that Hezbollah is not distinctly cited as the target, if I was Lebanese, I would read the following message :

“We hate you, we are raising our children to hate you AND don’t you ever expect to live in peace.”

Can you read what they’re writing on those bombs?
[/quote]
No.

Maybe that’s how you’d see it, but maybe it’s not how Lebanese are. Nonetheless, I don’t think Israel cares either way.

They don’t and that’s the problem.

But perhaps a Lebanese would view it as their saving grace, the savior from outside coming to wipe out the violent fascist militia that has infiltrated their country and their government, and created a state within a state?

I would be very interested in hearing how you understood that from those pictures.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]Sepukku wrote:
vroom wrote:
War is hell. I think terrorists and others like that need to realize that they will not gain through terrorism. I don’t hear you complaining about ongoing rocket launches from Hezbollah into Israel?

Straw man?[/quote]

No. This is exactly on point.

War is hell. Both sides do bad things.

The Allies killed more civilians than the Axis in WW2. The Allies (less the USSR) were stil the good guys.

The bottom line is the terrorists want to exterminate Israel. Israel does not want to be exterminated.

[Sepukku]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sepukku wrote:
vroom wrote:
War is hell. I think terrorists and others like that need to realize that they will not gain through terrorism. I don’t hear you complaining about ongoing rocket launches from Hezbollah into Israel?

Straw man?

No. This is exactly on point.

War is hell. Both sides do bad things.

The Allies killed more civilians than the Axis in WW2. The Allies (less the USSR) were stil the good guys.

The bottom line is the terrorists want to exterminate Israel. Israel does not want to be exterminated.
[/quote]

I was referring to this part of the arguement:

I don’t hear you complaining about ongoing rocket launches from Hezbollah into Israel?

[vroom]

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Well, I wish the Israeli’s good luck with their speedy victory. But somehow it always manages to escape them. It has escaped them for about 50 years now. But they believe firmly that they will finally make it tomorrow. Or the day after at least.
[/quote]

I wouldn’t characterize them like that. They are in a situation where they don’t have a lot of choice. There is a huge terrorist group living on their border conducting routine acts of war.

They can either sit there and allow their citizens to suffer, or they can do what they should do, and realize they are in fact at war and do something about it.

I’m waiting for the day that the people living in the region realize that ongoing war is less suitable than finding a way to make peace. Will it happen soon? Who knows. The region is consumed with hatred and fanaticism, so views won’t change quickly.

However, I have been pleasantly surprised to hear that there are in fact questions of this nature being asked in Lebanon.

[vroom]

[quote]Sepukku wrote:
I was referring to this part of the arguement:

I don’t hear you complaining about ongoing rocket launches from Hezbollah into Israel?[/quote]

If you look closely you’ll see a question mark on that.