CT, so what’s your opinion on constantly doing the four main 5/3/1 lifts, month after month?
[quote]forbes wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
All your body knows is IF WHAT IT IS DOING TODAY IS CHALLENGING COMPARED TO WHAT IT CAN DO. If it is a challenge, then it is an overload. If it is not, then there is no overload.
How do you know when you have fatigued a muscle optimally? [/quote]
lol Go back and read through his posts. I believe he covered this many times.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Needmassquick wrote:
Hey Coach, two questions. How important is exercise consistency in your opinion? It seems like these principles are great but it’s of course important to make sure you’re progressing/getting stronger which is probably much less likely if someone chooses to do a different exercise each time they work a muscle group, so would you generally stick with the same exercises?
Also, you mentioned a lot of low rep work. Do you typically like to stay under 6 reps and feel this works to build muscle just as well or even better than 7-12 or so?
I personally stick with much of the same exercises. For example, the bench press, back squat, overhead press, barbell row and pull-up is in all the programs I do myself, or most of them.
While I do agree that change is important, changing too often will actually limit your gains. The first 2-3 weeks you do an exercise, the strength gains are mostly from neural adaptation. Since the body really doesn’t want to add muscle unless it’s forced too, then it will rarely build a lot of mass until those initial neural adaptations are tapped out.
If you change your exercises too often, then you never give an exercise the chance to stimulate muscle growth, most of the gains will be neural. Which is fine if you want to increase strength without too much size, but not ideal for maximum growth IMHO.
You must be neurally efficient in an exercise for it to stimulate growth. This means that beginners should not change movements often, but that the most advanced lifters can change often and still stimulate max growth (because they are neurally efficient on almost all exercises).
BTW, the key to growth is not so much adding weight from week to week, but rather to challenge the body on a day-to-day basis… read my previous post above.
This was in Supertraining by Siff:
“Increase in intermuscular coordination - first 2-3 wks training.
Increase in intramuscular coordination - 4-6 wks training.
Increase in muscle hypertrophy - 6-12 wks training.
Then possible stagnation.” You’ve milked her for all she was worth.
Kind of pissed me off, when ppl new to training are changing things every 2-4 wks, b/c thats how “max effort/westside works”. Those guys have already put many consecutive wks on the exercises that they perform. Switching too often too soon in your training lifetime is detrimental in the long run.[/quote]
Bingo!
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
CT, so what’s your opinion on constantly doing the four main 5/3/1 lifts, month after month?[/quote]
Why not. As long as you are getting gains from them, why change? Change the assistance work, but if your training is progressing well on the basic movements, stick with them.
Thibs I already knew all this stuff, what should I do?
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Surprisingly I didn’t get as good of results with 5/3/1 as I would have hoped and have gotten better results since switching to a higher volume routine (BBB). Maybe just something I screwed up with it
How long did you stick with it? 5/3/1 should theoretically work for anyone because you can tailor it to your own needs, I don’t even follow the e-book recommendations anymore for accessory work. I’m more along the lines of CC’s BB template that he used.[/quote]
I stayed with it through 3 cycles. Front squat and DL were good and then one week they were just shot. Some progress on MP but not much on bench and in general there wasn’t a lot of progression. I followed more along the lines of CC’s BB template as well
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
In that second case, even though there was an actual decrease in performance, there WAS an overload BECAUSE THE WORK YOU DID WAS CHALLENGING FOR YOUR BODY ON THAT DAY. It’s not the number that counts, it’s how close that number is to what you can do on that day.
[/quote]
I understand the general point but if this were just the case then what about people who go in lifting the same thing all the time? For instance with a sticking point…some benchers might be stuck at 300lb. for months and every time they try it’s as hard as they can go on that day. Overload? Then why no muscle gain? (Assuming diet is in place)
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Thibs I already knew all this stuff, what should I do?
[/quote]
Stand up and bow in front of the crowd.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
PB Andy wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Surprisingly I didn’t get as good of results with 5/3/1 as I would have hoped and have gotten better results since switching to a higher volume routine (BBB). Maybe just something I screwed up with it
How long did you stick with it? 5/3/1 should theoretically work for anyone because you can tailor it to your own needs, I don’t even follow the e-book recommendations anymore for accessory work. I’m more along the lines of CC’s BB template that he used.
I stayed with it through 3 cycles. Front squat and DL were good and then one week they were just shot. Some progress on MP but not much on bench and in general there wasn’t a lot of progression. I followed more along the lines of CC’s BB template as well
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
In that second case, even though there was an actual decrease in performance, there WAS an overload BECAUSE THE WORK YOU DID WAS CHALLENGING FOR YOUR BODY ON THAT DAY. It’s not the number that counts, it’s how close that number is to what you can do on that day.
I understand the general point but if this were just the case then what about people who go in lifting the same thing all the time? For instance with a sticking point…some benchers might be stuck at 300lb. for months and every time they try it’s as hard as they can go on that day. Overload? Then why no muscle gain? (Assuming diet is in place)
[/quote]
Maybe they have tapped out their growth potential… maybe their diet is no longer adequate to further improve their body… maybe their lifestyle is not conductive to maximum growth. Hitting a wall is something that really is an individual thing and needs to be evaluated as such.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
PB Andy wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Surprisingly I didn’t get as good of results with 5/3/1 as I would have hoped and have gotten better results since switching to a higher volume routine (BBB). Maybe just something I screwed up with it
How long did you stick with it? 5/3/1 should theoretically work for anyone because you can tailor it to your own needs, I don’t even follow the e-book recommendations anymore for accessory work. I’m more along the lines of CC’s BB template that he used.
I stayed with it through 3 cycles. Front squat and DL were good and then one week they were just shot. Some progress on MP but not much on bench and in general there wasn’t a lot of progression. I followed more along the lines of CC’s BB template as well
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
In that second case, even though there was an actual decrease in performance, there WAS an overload BECAUSE THE WORK YOU DID WAS CHALLENGING FOR YOUR BODY ON THAT DAY. It’s not the number that counts, it’s how close that number is to what you can do on that day.
I understand the general point but if this were just the case then what about people who go in lifting the same thing all the time? For instance with a sticking point…some benchers might be stuck at 300lb. for months and every time they try it’s as hard as they can go on that day. Overload? Then why no muscle gain? (Assuming diet is in place)
Maybe they have tapped out their growth potential… maybe their diet is no longer adequate to further improve their body… maybe their lifestyle is not conductive to maximum growth. Hitting a wall is something that really is an individual thing and needs to be evaluated as such.[/quote]
With all the information on this website has no one learned the ability to ‘fish*’ yet?
*the teach a man to fish proverb.
Being able to think for yourself and not have someone hold your hand all the time seems to be whats missing from everyones training, not exercise selection, frequency, splits or what have you. Its your body, if you’re not progressing, its because you’re lacking somewhere, if you’re already going to the gym working hard AND smart, then it shouldn’t be your training, what’s lacking is somewhere else, like Christian said.
Once in awhile just pretend you’re the ‘coach’ being asked the question and THINK about what your answer would be, and if you actually take your training as serious as you think you do, go read and find the answer then you’ll develop your own resources that you can draw from.
I really don’t feal any difference from day to day… I might feel more energetic, but if I give it my all my performance dosent change much from day to day, so I see no reason why ‘auto-regulation’ should be that important…
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
PB Andy wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Surprisingly I didn’t get as good of results with 5/3/1 as I would have hoped and have gotten better results since switching to a higher volume routine (BBB). Maybe just something I screwed up with it
How long did you stick with it? 5/3/1 should theoretically work for anyone because you can tailor it to your own needs, I don’t even follow the e-book recommendations anymore for accessory work. I’m more along the lines of CC’s BB template that he used.
I stayed with it through 3 cycles. Front squat and DL were good and then one week they were just shot. Some progress on MP but not much on bench and in general there wasn’t a lot of progression. I followed more along the lines of CC’s BB template as well
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
In that second case, even though there was an actual decrease in performance, there WAS an overload BECAUSE THE WORK YOU DID WAS CHALLENGING FOR YOUR BODY ON THAT DAY. It’s not the number that counts, it’s how close that number is to what you can do on that day.
I understand the general point but if this were just the case then what about people who go in lifting the same thing all the time? For instance with a sticking point…some benchers might be stuck at 300lb. for months and every time they try it’s as hard as they can go on that day. Overload? Then why no muscle gain? (Assuming diet is in place)
Maybe they have tapped out their growth potential… maybe their diet is no longer adequate to further improve their body… maybe their lifestyle is not conductive to maximum growth. Hitting a wall is something that really is an individual thing and needs to be evaluated as such.[/quote]
I don’t know, I mean what about proper training variables and variation? People who get stuck with a lift may not change their diet at all but then they switch routines and their lifts go up again due to a change in loading parameters and other factors. Even though they were “pushing” just as hard before (thus apparantly causing an equal amount of “overload” on the muscle for those days) as now they are now gaining strength and muscle whereas before they weren’t.
[quote]fredarn wrote:
I really don’t feal any difference from day to day… I might feel more energetic, but if I give it my all my performance dosent change much from day to day, so I see no reason why ‘auto-regulation’ should be that important…[/quote]
Whatever works for you. If your performance doesn’t change it is likely that:
- Your days are always alike
- There is no variation in your stress levels from day to day
- You are not really giving it all you’ve got in the gym
- You have hit a plateau and can’t improve
- You might not be in-touch with your body enough to notice the difference
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
PB Andy wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Surprisingly I didn’t get as good of results with 5/3/1 as I would have hoped and have gotten better results since switching to a higher volume routine (BBB). Maybe just something I screwed up with it
How long did you stick with it? 5/3/1 should theoretically work for anyone because you can tailor it to your own needs, I don’t even follow the e-book recommendations anymore for accessory work. I’m more along the lines of CC’s BB template that he used.
I stayed with it through 3 cycles. Front squat and DL were good and then one week they were just shot. Some progress on MP but not much on bench and in general there wasn’t a lot of progression. I followed more along the lines of CC’s BB template as well
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
In that second case, even though there was an actual decrease in performance, there WAS an overload BECAUSE THE WORK YOU DID WAS CHALLENGING FOR YOUR BODY ON THAT DAY. It’s not the number that counts, it’s how close that number is to what you can do on that day.
I understand the general point but if this were just the case then what about people who go in lifting the same thing all the time? For instance with a sticking point…some benchers might be stuck at 300lb. for months and every time they try it’s as hard as they can go on that day. Overload? Then why no muscle gain? (Assuming diet is in place)
Maybe they have tapped out their growth potential… maybe their diet is no longer adequate to further improve their body… maybe their lifestyle is not conductive to maximum growth. Hitting a wall is something that really is an individual thing and needs to be evaluated as such.
I don’t know, I mean what about proper training variables and variation? People who get stuck with a lift may not change their diet at all but then they switch routines and their lifts go up again due to a change in loading parameters and other factors. Even though they were “pushing” just as hard before (thus apparantly causing an equal amount of “overload” on the muscle for those days) as now they are now gaining strength and muscle whereas before they weren’t. [/quote]
I’m not saying not to change your program. I often change myself. But everytime you hit the wall you must evaluate the reason why you have stopped progressing and select the proper solution for your own problem.
Hey CT,
Great article thanks alot.
ive got a question though, when you say that on some sessions you can even regress progress, how much is okay to decrease by because ive been using your method of ramping but with abit higher reps (6-10) and last workout, last week i did
Flat bench 60kgx10 as my top set.
This week i barely got 60x6 and I’m abit worried because it seems like too much of a decrease.
By the way, I’ve progressed for the last 2 sessions and just got stuck today, if that helps.
Thanks!
[quote]kaoticz wrote:
Hey CT,
Great article thanks alot.
ive got a question though, when you say that on some sessions you can even regress progress, how much is okay to decrease by because ive been using your method of ramping but with abit higher reps (6-10) and last workout, last week i did
Flat bench 60kgx10 as my top set.
This week i barely got 60x6 and I’m abit worried because it seems like too much of a decrease.
By the way, I’ve progressed for the last 2 sessions and just got stuck today, if that helps.
Thanks! [/quote]
I personally don’t like ramping with high reps, it just doesn’t work as well. Understand that by ‘ramping’ I do not mean ramping up the weight… you ARE ramping up the weight, but it is not the main goal. Ramping refers to ramping up the nervous system from set to set. As the CNS is ramped up, your strength potential increases.
However there is another thing that counterbalance this activation of the CNS: fatigue. Each set produces both: fatigue and activation.
If a set produces more activation than fatigue, your strength increases from set to set. If the set causes more fatigue than activation then your strength decreases from set to set.
Sets of more than 8 reps have a much lesser effect on the CNS (less activation) and create more fatigue. As a result it is hard to get the “ramping” benefits from sets of high reps.
Bumping this thread. I think more people need to read CTs original post before posting questions…
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