I’ve been doing the “Push-pull-legs (requires 6 workouts per 8 days”; good to see I’m doing something right, and the results are showing.
[quote]Charles3264 wrote:
What do you think about choosing an exercice(lift) and doing(or trying the perfect rep,3 quarter eccentric, last quarter faster to strecth pos and fast concentric)… 1 rep for 9 reps… about60 seconds between reps 3rm?
and what do you think about this kind of wave 1, 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4-5 reps using 5rm?
[/quote]
That’s a ladder, right?
[quote]Brian Smith wrote:
Charles3264 wrote:
What do you think about choosing an exercice(lift) and doing(or trying the perfect rep,3 quarter eccentric, last quarter faster to strecth pos and fast concentric)… 1 rep for 9 reps… about60 seconds between reps 3rm?
and what do you think about this kind of wave 1, 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4-5 reps using 5rm?
That’s a ladder, right?[/quote]
yes, that’s how i trained for single arm overhead press. very effective for progression when you don’t have the availability for incrementally adding weight.
Its a very good workout…my training day(lifts) doing this wave …
-snatch rack pulls
-1 arm incline db press
-front squats
- chins
Good stuff. So basically, like with 5/3/1. You start the program calculating 90% of your max, and then do all your percentages based off that 90%. So in the last wave, you get to 75% for 5, 85% for 3, and 95% for 1 or more. This is actually only 95% of 90% of your real max. So by concentrating on accelerating the bar as fast as possible, with good turnaround, you are technically doing “max force” training?
I don’t know if this is posted in your training thread, couldn’t find using the search and there’s like 30 some pages to read through there. But I find that turnaround on rows and squats seems to be the most difficult to get. Any suggestions on how to leran it?
Good read…
Any program I have, I use as a guide… If it says 6 sets of 5/3/1/5/3/1, then it might take me a few sets to find my the set that I max out of the 5th rep…
The other day my program called for 9 sets of back squats at 3/2/1/3/2/1/3/2/1… Normally I’d be dead afterwards, but I felt I had more gas in the tank, so I banged out 4 sets of front squats as I felt I wanted more direct stimulation of my quads…
The week before I was doing 6 sets of push presses at 3/2/1/3/2/1 and I felt the weight I used on my first 3 rep I had crappy form and looked like a bobblehead shaking around, so I dropped the weight accordinly (even though it was less weight than the weeks previous), but I ended up having a great workout because of it… Just have to listen to your body and how it’s responding…
I think it’s safe to say any program works, providing you have the diet/nutrition and rest/recovery nailed down…
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
- Regardless of the number of reps you plan on doing, start at 50% of your maximum and gradually increase the poundage you are using while still trying to push the bar as fast or hard as you can. Only do the selected number of reps on each set (even the sets with 50%) and stop when you reach peak performance for that number (the top of the mountain for that exercise on that day).
[/quote]
Hey CT, really great article!
About the above point…why would you necessarily stick to the rep range? For instance lets say you bench 8x300 and you feel like you could have gotten a 9th rep or maybe 8x310. Well you could go for that 9th rep right there but if you try to do 8x310 the next set the previous set of 8x300 will still have been very hard and will likely tax you to a degree where you can’t get 8x310 anymore. Could you explain?
Thanks a lot
Edit: To be clear, once you work up to you’re max performance set you end with that exercise? Or continue until you really feel fatigued if you felt it was strong? Maybe a quick example with hypothetical weights for all sets would be easier to explain it but whatever works for you
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
- Regardless of the number of reps you plan on doing, start at 50% of your maximum and gradually increase the poundage you are using while still trying to push the bar as fast or hard as you can. Only do the selected number of reps on each set (even the sets with 50%) and stop when you reach peak performance for that number (the top of the mountain for that exercise on that day).
Hey CT, really great article!
About the above point…why would you necessarily stick to the rep range? For instance lets say you bench 8x300 and you feel like you could have gotten a 9th rep or maybe 8x310. Well you could go for that 9th rep right there but if you try to do 8x310 the next set the previous set of 8x300 will still have been very hard and will likely tax you to a degree where you can’t get 8x310 anymore. Could you explain?
Thanks a lot
Edit: To be clear, once you work up to you’re max performance set you end with that exercise? Or continue until you really feel fatigued if you felt it was strong? Maybe a quick example with hypothetical weights for all sets would be easier to explain it but whatever works for you
[/quote]
I sometimes do that. For example work up to a 5RM, and do one or two sets of 3 at the end. The problem is that the whole purpose of ramping is to prevent overtraining. And the way this system does this is to stop when you can’t do more work at a selected rep number. When you can’t add more weight at a rep number does it mean that you have done all that is possible of doing? No! But it ensures that you properly stimulated the muscle through that exercise without possibly exceeding your capacities to recover.
Anyway, you have more exercises left afterwards (most of the time), and if you don’t you can always do ONE back off set with 85% of the top you reached and go for max reps.
You can add sets at a lower rep number and continue to ramp up, but you really gotta now your body to do this and look for signs of neural drain of physiological fatigue otherwise you’ll simply exceed what you can recovery from… if 5% more stimulation leads to 20% more fatigue, you will progress at a slower, not faster, rate.
[quote]ironshaolin wrote:
Good stuff. So basically, like with 5/3/1. You start the program calculating 90% of your max, and then do all your percentages based off that 90%. So in the last wave, you get to 75% for 5, 85% for 3, and 95% for 1 or more. This is actually only 95% of 90% of your real max. So by concentrating on accelerating the bar as fast as possible, with good turnaround, you are technically doing “max force” training?
[/quote]
You don’t quite get it. I DO NOT start the program by calculating 90% of my max. And I DO NOT select weights based on a percentage (the 50-60% starting point is just to give you a broad idea). Why? Because what is 90% of your max today might be 100% (if you are really tired) tomorrow or it could be 80% (if you are in great shape).
So in my mind using fixed percentage is not always adequate.
I prefer to start at a low weight (the 50-60% example) and gradually work up by 10-30lbs increments until I reach the maximum amount of weight I can lift solidly for the number of reps I selected. Then stop. So the amount of weight lifted and the number of sets will be determined by the amount of energy and strength you have on that day.
Look up my post on ramping in my forum.
for strenght i use this kind of wave…9 x 1 rep…take the rest you need between reps
waves % of max 1rm
75&-80%-85%
80%-85%-90%
85%-90%-95%
i choose compound exercie like deads, push press, bench, squats…
it includes the perfect rep, and ramping…
What do you think coach?
Hey Coach, two questions. How important is exercise consistency in your opinion? It seems like these principles are great but it’s of course important to make sure you’re progressing/getting stronger which is probably much less likely if someone chooses to do a different exercise each time they work a muscle group, so would you generally stick with the same exercises?
Also, you mentioned a lot of low rep work. Do you typically like to stay under 6 reps and feel this works to build muscle just as well or even better than 7-12 or so?
I completely agree with your 5/3/1 comment Thib. It’s something I’ve been thinking about lately as I am on cycle 3 of 5/3/1 so I’m deep into it, but also I have been following your readings on the “perfect rep”, and auto-regulation. So I’ve been finding just really solid connections between your thoughts but also with how I train with 5/3/1.
- If I’m feeling like crap, I don’t rep out on the last set of the main lift.
- The percentages don’t really matter in 5/3/1. They do in terms of slowly progressing month-after-month and setting a baseline, but they are all based off of 90% of your 1RM instead of 100%. So you don’t really need to worry about how your performance will be on a certain day with a particular percentage.
- Ramping is pretty much built in. My sets start at the bar, then 40% of the lift, and move all the way up to 80%-95%, depending on the week. I’ve found that it is much better with 5/3/1 to ramp 10% up instead of 5%. The last set is really the one that matters, that top-off set, regardless if you rep out or not. For me, I feel way more productive in that last set if my nervous system has not been drained from previous sets, it has actually been primed with large weight jumps.
- Like you said, you can fit the accessory work to your own needs. You can throw it out completely if you want on a certain day, as long as you understand your body enough to know what you are doing.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
ironshaolin wrote:
Good stuff. So basically, like with 5/3/1. You start the program calculating 90% of your max, and then do all your percentages based off that 90%. So in the last wave, you get to 75% for 5, 85% for 3, and 95% for 1 or more. This is actually only 95% of 90% of your real max. So by concentrating on accelerating the bar as fast as possible, with good turnaround, you are technically doing “max force” training?
You don’t quite get it. I DO NOT start the program by calculating 90% of my max. And I DO NOT select weights based on a percentage (the 50-60% starting point is just to give you a broad idea). Why? Because what is 90% of your max today might be 100% (if you are really tired) tomorrow or it could be 80% (if you are in great shape).
So in my mind using fixed percentage is not always adequate.
I prefer to start at a low weight (the 50-60% example) and gradually work up by 10-30lbs increments until I reach the maximum amount of weight I can lift solidly for the number of reps I selected. Then stop. So the amount of weight lifted and the number of sets will be determined by the amount of energy and strength you have on that day.
Look up my post on ramping in my forum.[/quote]
Coach,
I wasn’t saying thats how you do it, thats how the 5/3/1 program works, calculating 90% and basing percentages from there. I’ve been at that system for about 4 months now, and my lifts are just now getting back to where they were before I started. Thats because of how the progression works.
In regards to how you do things, if your goal is to get stronger, how do you build in a plan of progression, or do you just do it until you get there? It seems like, you start an excersise at 50-60% of your max, pick what reps you’re doing, then keep doing those reps, adding 10-30lbs per set until you hit a spot when you get tired. For someone less experienced, do you think they might end up working to the same number time after time? Or would it just happen naturally, that they would build up to heavier numbers. In the I, Bodybuilder report, there were claims of people doing things like putting 100lbs on their front squat. Did that work because from workout to workout, they just felt really, really good so they were able to keep adding?
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I completely agree with your 5/3/1 comment Thib. It’s something I’ve been thinking about lately as I am on cycle 3 of 5/3/1 so I’m deep into it, but also I have been following your readings on the “perfect rep”, and auto-regulation. So I’ve been finding just really solid connections between your thoughts but also with how I train with 5/3/1.
-
If I’m feeling like crap, I don’t rep out on the last set of the main lift.
-
The percentages don’t really matter in 5/3/1. They do in terms of slowly progressing month-after-month and setting a baseline, but they are all based off of 90% of your 1RM instead of 100%. So you don’t really need to worry about how your performance will be on a certain day with a particular percentage.
-
Ramping is pretty much built in. My sets start at the bar, then 40% of the lift, and move all the way up to 80%-95%, depending on the week. I’ve found that it is much better with 5/3/1 to ramp 10% up instead of 5%. The last set is really the one that matters, that top-off set, regardless if you rep out or not. For me, I feel way more productive in that last set if my nervous system has not been drained from previous sets, it has actually been primed with large weight jumps.
-
Like you said, you can fit the accessory work to your own needs. You can throw it out completely if you want on a certain day, as long as you understand your body enough to know what you are doing.[/quote]
Surprisingly I didn’t get as good of results with 5/3/1 as I would have hoped and have gotten better results since switching to a higher volume routine (BBB). Maybe just something I screwed up with it
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
PB Andy wrote:
I completely agree with your 5/3/1 comment Thib. It’s something I’ve been thinking about lately as I am on cycle 3 of 5/3/1 so I’m deep into it, but also I have been following your readings on the “perfect rep”, and auto-regulation. So I’ve been finding just really solid connections between your thoughts but also with how I train with 5/3/1.
-
If I’m feeling like crap, I don’t rep out on the last set of the main lift.
-
The percentages don’t really matter in 5/3/1. They do in terms of slowly progressing month-after-month and setting a baseline, but they are all based off of 90% of your 1RM instead of 100%. So you don’t really need to worry about how your performance will be on a certain day with a particular percentage.
-
Ramping is pretty much built in. My sets start at the bar, then 40% of the lift, and move all the way up to 80%-95%, depending on the week. I’ve found that it is much better with 5/3/1 to ramp 10% up instead of 5%. The last set is really the one that matters, that top-off set, regardless if you rep out or not. For me, I feel way more productive in that last set if my nervous system has not been drained from previous sets, it has actually been primed with large weight jumps.
-
Like you said, you can fit the accessory work to your own needs. You can throw it out completely if you want on a certain day, as long as you understand your body enough to know what you are doing.
Surprisingly I didn’t get as good of results with 5/3/1 as I would have hoped and have gotten better results since switching to a higher volume routine (BBB). Maybe just something I screwed up with it
[/quote]
How long did you stick with it? 5/3/1 should theoretically work for anyone because you can tailor it to your own needs, I don’t even follow the e-book recommendations anymore for accessory work. I’m more along the lines of CC’s BB template that he used.
[quote]ironshaolin wrote:
In regards to how you do things, if your goal is to get stronger, how do you build in a plan of progression, or do you just do it until you get there? It seems like, you start an excersise at 50-60% of your max, pick what reps you’re doing, then keep doing those reps, adding 10-30lbs per set until you hit a spot when you get tired.
For someone less experienced, do you think they might end up working to the same number time after time? Or would it just happen naturally, that they would build up to heavier numbers.
In the I, Bodybuilder report, there were claims of people doing things like putting 100lbs on their front squat. Did that work because from workout to workout, they just felt really, really good so they were able to keep adding? [/quote]
-
It’s impossible to know exactly how fast you will progress strength-wise, so I do not believe that you can pre-plan a certain weekly or monthly strength increase or progression.
-
The actual amount of weight you lift is not as important as how you lift it. If you go from lifting 100lbs x 5 slowly to being able to lift the same 100lbs x 5 explosively, you have gotten much stronger even though the load has not changed.
-
The progressive overload (gradually adding weight or reps overtime, progressing from one session to the next) is correct in theory and flawed in application. YES you need to gradually chanllenge your body everytime you are in the gym to progress optimally. But you can’t judge progressing on a workout-to-workout basis.
YOUR MUSCLES DON’T REMEMBER WHAT THEY LIFTED LAST WEEK. It’s not like you lifted 200lbs last week, then put on 205lbs and the body thinks ‘‘hey, this is 5lbs more than last week, let’s build more muscle!’’. IT DOESN’T WORK LIKE THAT.
All your body knows is IF WHAT IT IS DOING TODAY IS CHALLENGING COMPARED TO WHAT IT CAN DO. If it is a challenge, then it is an overload. If it is not, then there is no overload.
For example, let’s say that last week you were not in top form and only managed to lift 200lbs for your sets of 5. This week you feel much better and decide to use 205lbs for your sets… you do them, but they actually feel easy because for you on that day 205lbs is way below what you could have done. Then, even though you did progress compared to last week, chances are that you didn’t create much of an overload and didn’t stimulate much growth or progress.
On the other hand, last week you might have been in fantastic shape, one of these magical days, and hit 220lbs for your sets of 5. This week, you’re pretty much back to normal and can’t repeat that 220lbs… you do however work up to the max performance that your body will allow you to do on that day, let’s say 210lbs for your sets.
In that second case, even though there was an actual decrease in performance, there WAS an overload BECAUSE THE WORK YOU DID WAS CHALLENGING FOR YOUR BODY ON THAT DAY. It’s not the number that counts, it’s how close that number is to what you can do on that day.
I’m not saying that you should not strive to increase the amount of weight lifted, but rather that because your body’s capacity fluctuates from day to day, it is impossible to establish a specific pattern of progression. The best thing you can do is learn how to make the most out of each workout, so that they are a challenge to the body and thus represent a true overload.
[quote]Needmassquick wrote:
Hey Coach, two questions. How important is exercise consistency in your opinion? It seems like these principles are great but it’s of course important to make sure you’re progressing/getting stronger which is probably much less likely if someone chooses to do a different exercise each time they work a muscle group, so would you generally stick with the same exercises?
Also, you mentioned a lot of low rep work. Do you typically like to stay under 6 reps and feel this works to build muscle just as well or even better than 7-12 or so?[/quote]
I personally stick with much of the same exercises. For example, the bench press, back squat, overhead press, barbell row and pull-up is in all the programs I do myself, or most of them.
While I do agree that change is important, changing too often will actually limit your gains. The first 2-3 weeks you do an exercise, the strength gains are mostly from neural adaptation. Since the body really doesn’t want to add muscle unless it’s forced too, then it will rarely build a lot of mass until those initial neural adaptations are tapped out.
If you change your exercises too often, then you never give an exercise the chance to stimulate muscle growth, most of the gains will be neural. Which is fine if you want to increase strength without too much size, but not ideal for maximum growth IMHO.
You must be neurally efficient in an exercise for it to stimulate growth. This means that beginners should not change movements often, but that the most advanced lifters can change often and still stimulate max growth (because they are neurally efficient on almost all exercises).
BTW, the key to growth is not so much adding weight from week to week, but rather to challenge the body on a day-to-day basis… read my previous post above.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
- The actual amount of weight you lift is not as important as how you lift it. If you go from lifting 100lbs x 5 slowly to being able to lift the same 100lbs x 5 explosively, you have gotten much stronger even though the load has not changed.
[/quote]
Lifting according to the F = MA curve is extremely difficult for me for simple reason that it’s so tempting to load up the max. Regardless, I’ve found that my 1MR actually goes up more during periods in which I back away from my max and just accelerate faster.
Also, with the application of the SSC theory I’ve rarely felt that slight soreness in the tendons when I’ve been close to my max, but that may be simply because I’m unable to perform the fast descent coupled with the turn-around with that much weight.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
All your body knows is IF WHAT IT IS DOING TODAY IS CHALLENGING COMPARED TO WHAT IT CAN DO. If it is a challenge, then it is an overload. If it is not, then there is no overload.
[/quote]
How do you know when you have fatigued a muscle optimally?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Needmassquick wrote:
Hey Coach, two questions. How important is exercise consistency in your opinion? It seems like these principles are great but it’s of course important to make sure you’re progressing/getting stronger which is probably much less likely if someone chooses to do a different exercise each time they work a muscle group, so would you generally stick with the same exercises?
Also, you mentioned a lot of low rep work. Do you typically like to stay under 6 reps and feel this works to build muscle just as well or even better than 7-12 or so?
I personally stick with much of the same exercises. For example, the bench press, back squat, overhead press, barbell row and pull-up is in all the programs I do myself, or most of them.
While I do agree that change is important, changing too often will actually limit your gains. The first 2-3 weeks you do an exercise, the strength gains are mostly from neural adaptation. Since the body really doesn’t want to add muscle unless it’s forced too, then it will rarely build a lot of mass until those initial neural adaptations are tapped out.
If you change your exercises too often, then you never give an exercise the chance to stimulate muscle growth, most of the gains will be neural. Which is fine if you want to increase strength without too much size, but not ideal for maximum growth IMHO.
You must be neurally efficient in an exercise for it to stimulate growth. This means that beginners should not change movements often, but that the most advanced lifters can change often and still stimulate max growth (because they are neurally efficient on almost all exercises).
BTW, the key to growth is not so much adding weight from week to week, but rather to challenge the body on a day-to-day basis… read my previous post above.[/quote]
This was in Supertraining by Siff:
“Increase in intermuscular coordination - first 2-3 wks training.
Increase in intramuscular coordination - 4-6 wks training.
Increase in muscle hypertrophy - 6-12 wks training.
Then possible stagnation.” You’ve milked her for all she was worth.
Kind of pissed me off, when ppl new to training are changing things every 2-4 wks, b/c thats how “max effort/westside works”. Those guys have already put many consecutive wks on the exercises that they perform. Switching too often too soon in your training lifetime is detrimental in the long run.