CT gets 10,000 friend requests on facebook…
You have to look big on your profile pic to be accepted 
Hey Thibs, what are your thoughts on trying to train for raw powerlifting and olympic lifting at the same time? I kind of love doing both lifting styles. Do they carry over into each other well? And I’m curious as to where to look with regards to info on training for both of them (I don’t mind am/pm splits and what not).
do you think one could train the big three and the olympic stuff simultaneously, or would you do cycles of one style then the other? I’m thinking I could tackle both at the same time, I’m just curious as to your take on it.
[quote]Battle Pope wrote:
Hey Thibs, what are your thoughts on trying to train for raw powerlifting and olympic lifting at the same time? I kind of love doing both lifting styles. Do they carry over into each other well? And I’m curious as to where to look with regards to info on training for both of them (I don’t mind am/pm splits and what not).
do you think one could train the big three and the olympic stuff simultaneously, or would you do cycles of one style then the other? I’m thinking I could tackle both at the same time, I’m just curious as to your take on it.[/quote]
You can’t really peak for both, I’ve tried.
First of all the bench press can hurt snatch and jerk performance because of mobility issues.
Then you have the squat and deadlift. TECHNICALLY a powerlifting squat and powerlifting deadlift are different than when they are used as assistance exercises on the OL. In powerlifting you normally use a wider foot stance in the squat and start with the hips higher in the deadlift.
You COULD use the same form on squats and deads as you do when using them as assistance exercises for the OL but you might not be able to lift as much.
BUT there is the issue of neural stress. Training 5 movements for peak performance will take its toll on the nervous system. Heck, some powerlifters can’t even deadlift every week because it messes up their nervous system.
You can do both and be adequate in both. But you can’t do both and reach optimal performance. It depends on what you are looking for I guess.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
CT gets 10,000 friend requests on facebook…
:)[/quote]
Not really… the 10 000 number was just a figure of speech to show how many emails I’m getting already.
CT,
You previously mentioned a lower back spec consisting of 3 days of intensive lower back work (lots of deadlifting, good mornings, extensions, etc).
If one wanted to still squat during this spec, what is the best way to incorporate it while not being overkill on the lower back and legs?
I was thinking maybe one day of Max Force sets, simply on the squat, no other leg work on that day, because that is being take care of on the 3 days of the lower back spec.
[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
CT,
You previously mentioned a lower back spec consisting of 3 days of intensive lower back work (lots of deadlifting, good mornings, extensions, etc).
If one wanted to still squat during this spec, what is the best way to incorporate it while not being overkill on the lower back and legs?
I was thinking maybe one day of Max Force sets, simply on the squat, no other leg work on that day, because that is being take care of on the 3 days of the lower back spec.[/quote]
Yeah, start the first weekly session with the back squat. You might even add front squats on the third spec day.
just wanted to say thank you for the lower back spec program. I started it last week and so far I’m loving it. Deadlift is going up very nicely (it’s been stalled for quite some time), my back in general is feeling better, and I leave the gym with what I can only describe as feeling like I couldn’t really manage much more in the gym yet still have plenty of energy left for the rest of the days activities.
I added in a few grip trainers at the end (plate pinches and stuff) attempting to bring that up too, and one day to hit the rest of the muscles directly (basically took one of the I,BODYBUILDER days).
I highly recommend it to anyone who has problems deadlifting, or has just been stuck…
Thanks again Coach…
why stop to post the random thought of the day?you are too busy?
[quote]Dont Want None wrote:
just wanted to say thank you for the lower back spec program. I started it last week and so far I’m loving it. Deadlift is going up very nicely (it’s been stalled for quite some time), my back in general is feeling better, and I leave the gym with what I can only describe as feeling like I couldn’t really manage much more in the gym yet still have plenty of energy left for the rest of the days activities.
I added in a few grip trainers at the end (plate pinches and stuff) attempting to bring that up too, and one day to hit the rest of the muscles directly (basically took one of the I,BODYBUILDER days).
I highly recommend it to anyone who has problems deadlifting, or has just been stuck…
Thanks again Coach…[/quote]
Glad to help
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
CT,
You previously mentioned a lower back spec consisting of 3 days of intensive lower back work (lots of deadlifting, good mornings, extensions, etc).
If one wanted to still squat during this spec, what is the best way to incorporate it while not being overkill on the lower back and legs?
I was thinking maybe one day of Max Force sets, simply on the squat, no other leg work on that day, because that is being take care of on the 3 days of the lower back spec.[/quote]
Yeah, start the first weekly session with the back squat. You might even add front squats on the third spec day.[/quote]
OK, thanks for the quick reply.
FEBRUARY 18TH
HIGH REPS HTH
The whole basis of HTH is to focus on trying to accelerate the load as much as possible on each repetition. This way every single rep has a maximal training effect because, regardless of the load and your fatigue state, you always produce as much force as you can at that point (force = mass x acceleration). In other words, the acceleration can compensate for the lower weight or lower fatigue level.
Another basic principle is to avoid grinding reps as they tend to really put a burden on the CNS and hinder recovery more than they contribute to added growth.
So this somewhat tends to remove higher rep sets out of the equation as fatigue accumulated from rep to rep will either cause a grinding type of contraction after 6-7 reps OR force you to use a very light load to avoid grinding, but that load might be too light for you to be able to produce maximum force.
Still, there is a benefit to performing higher reps when it comes to building muscle mass. Volume does contribute to increasing the size of muscle fibers.
So what is one to do if he wants to include higher reps stuff (outside of the occasional max reps set at the end of a low reps ramp)?
The solution is a form of cluster training where you perform a series of “mini-sets” of 2-3 reps spaced out by 10 seconds rest intervals. This way you can perform sets of 8-12 reps with a relatively heavy weight without grinding.
A god starting point is roughly 65-70% of your maximum (the 65-75% zone is ideal) and you perform micro, or mini sets of 2-3 reps with 10 seconds of rest between them.
How many reps do you do per mini-set? 2 or 3… Ideally you shoot for 3, but if after the second rep you know that the third one will be a grind, only do two (this will probably happen after 2-3 mini-sets).
How many mini-sets do you do? As many as you can without taking more than 10 seconds of rest and without grinding. For example, if you complete 2 mini-sets of 3 reps and 2 mini-sets of 2 reps but on the fifth mini-set the first rep is the most you can do without grinding, you stop your set there.
The above example would look like this:
3 reps (no grinding)
10 sec. rest
3 reps (all reps are still solid)
10 sec. rest
2 reps (second rep was hard, 3rd would likely have been a grind)
10 sec. rest
2 reps (both reps were hard, 2nd rep was borderline)
10 sec. rest
1 rep (the second rep would have been a grind for sure_
STOP THERE BECAUSE YOU CAN’T DO AT LEAST 2 REPS WITHOUT GRINDING
So that set would be for a total of 11 reps.
There is no need to ramp up. You keep the same weigh for all the sets and you stop the exercise when you can’t perform at least 8 total reps with the selected load. I still recommend 2-3 ramping sets of 3 reps to activate the nervous system before starting our high rep sets.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
FEBRUARY 18TH
HIGH REPS HTH
The whole basis of HTH is to focus on trying to accelerate the load as much as possible on each repetition. This way every single rep has a maximal training effect because, regardless of the load and your fatigue state, you always produce as much force as you can at that point (force = mass x acceleration). In other words, the acceleration can compensate for the lower weight or lower fatigue level.
Another basic principle is to avoid grinding reps as they tend to really put a burden on the CNS and hinder recovery more than they contribute to added growth.
So this somewhat tends to remove higher rep sets out of the equation as fatigue accumulated from rep to rep will either cause a grinding type of contraction after 6-7 reps OR force you to use a very light load to avoid grinding, but that load might be too light for you to be able to produce maximum force.
Still, there is a benefit to performing higher reps when it comes to building muscle mass. Volume does contribute to increasing the size of muscle fibers.
So what is one to do if he wants to include higher reps stuff (outside of the occasional max reps set at the end of a low reps ramp)?
The solution is a form of cluster training where you perform a series of “mini-sets” of 2-3 reps spaced out by 10 seconds rest intervals. This way you can perform sets of 8-12 reps with a relatively heavy weight without grinding.
A god starting point is roughly 65-70% of your maximum (the 65-75% zone is ideal) and you perform micro, or mini sets of 2-3 reps with 10 seconds of rest between them.
How many reps do you do per mini-set? 2 or 3… Ideally you shoot for 3, but if after the second rep you know that the third one will be a grind, only do two (this will probably happen after 2-3 mini-sets).
How many mini-sets do you do? As many as you can without taking more than 10 seconds of rest and without grinding. For example, if you complete 2 mini-sets of 3 reps and 2 mini-sets of 2 reps but on the fifth mini-set the first rep is the most you can do without grinding, you stop your set there.
The above example would look like this:
3 reps (no grinding)
10 sec. rest
3 reps (all reps are still solid)
10 sec. rest
2 reps (second rep was hard, 3rd would likely have been a grind)
10 sec. rest
2 reps (both reps were hard, 2nd rep was borderline)
10 sec. rest
1 rep (the second rep would have been a grind for sure_
STOP THERE BECAUSE YOU CAN’T DO AT LEAST 2 REPS WITHOUT GRINDING
So that set would be for a total of 11 reps.
There is no need to ramp up. You keep the same weigh for all the sets and you stop the exercise when you can’t perform at least 8 total reps with the selected load. I still recommend 2-3 ramping sets of 3 reps to activate the nervous system before starting our high rep sets.[/quote]
How many of these mini-set series would you do? Just one per exercise? So close grip bench for example, once you complete the above example - 11 reps in the mini-sets, would you rest 2-3 mins and then go at it again?
[quote]Mutsanah wrote:
How many of these mini-set series would you do? Just one per exercise? So close grip bench for example, once you complete the above example - 11 reps in the mini-sets, would you rest 2-3 mins and then go at it again?
[/quote]
From the original post:
You keep the same weigh for all the sets and you stop the exercise when you can’t perform at least 8 total reps with the selected load.
So it might look like this:
Set 1: 12 total reps
Set 2: 12 total reps
Set 3: 10 total reps
Set 4: 8 total reps
Set 5: 7 total reps (stop the exercise)
What is the reason that this is not incorporated for the “max reps set” in the I, BB routines?
Before I ask my questions I would like to say that my personal experience confirms what you say here. Still, one thing bothers me about the concept of CNS fatigue. I can’t find any scientific research at all on the subject. It’s like CNS fatigue only exists for members of T-Nation. I’ve seen some studies on short term CNS fatigue during training activities, but nothing on long term or chronic states of nervous fatigue.
Can you point to any references on this phenomenon?
A while back I ran into a guy who used to teach where I got my PT education. I asked him about it, and in his opinion it was virtually impossible to overload the CNS for longer periods of time. I’m not sure I believe him at all though. What you say seems more reasonable, and corresponds better with real world experience.
[quote]David1991 wrote:
What is the reason that this is not incorporated for the “max reps set” in the I, BB routines?[/quote]
The IBB program is only a level 1 program. There are many more techniques that we use. The IBB is basically to teach you how to accelerate and autoregulate.
Plus, I developed this method 6-8 weeks ago and just finished experimenting with it. The IBB program was written about 10 months ago.
[quote]captaincalvert wrote:
Before I ask my questions I would like to say that my personal experience confirms what you say here. Still, one thing bothers me about the concept of CNS fatigue. I can’t find any scientific research at all on the subject. It’s like CNS fatigue only exists for members of T-Nation.
[/quote]
PUBMED has references on CNS fatigue dating to the late 90s at least. There are many from different sources and not just on PUBMED–gotta’ dig 'em up. I hear you re: evidence but often science lags the approaches trainers use and the methodologies are applied for different ends. But empirically, what THIBS says has been suspected by some and known by others for quite some time. Vince Gironda, whom I knew, always spoke about getting “systemically” fried like that, therefore his sessions were just 30 minutes or so (3 days on and one off split), used fast reps, A, B, and C sets, etc… He hadn’t developed it fully, especially the strength aspects, but was on the right track and knew the problems.
Mainly though, I trained in HIT style (2 days per week, few sets, intentionally slower reps, near failure or full failure–literally seeing stars). Grinding was THE way of life. Fried myself doing it for days after each session and it wasn’t muscular fatigue as the workload per bodypart was actually small. Thought that was the way I was supposed to feel–no pain no gain and all that. Some of that must have been CNS burnout.
Many other “HITers” I know have reported the same for years (mostly in private communications)–an “uh-oh” moment that questions the “faith”. Non-hitters grind away too, just less so. This is not “evidence” but in 1 month doing just the Perfect Rep approach and Autoregulation (and a sensible split), I now know I was making a huge error before in my prior training and lost many years to it. I’m shocked how much better I feel now and I’ve doubled my weekly work days and greatly increased sessional volume, yet feel energized post-workout and following day, plus already an improved physique even at my age, which surprised me. Coupled with improved eating, the last month has been a godsend. And I’m still improving in my basics with the PR–improving acceleration (which was glacially slow and now a bit better) and a better sense of autoregulation (was non-existent). Wish I could get the last few decades back, but hey…
Roy
[quote]captaincalvert wrote:
Before I ask my questions I would like to say that my personal experience confirms what you say here. Still, one thing bothers me about the concept of CNS fatigue. I can’t find any scientific research at all on the subject. It’s like CNS fatigue only exists for members of T-Nation. I’ve seen some studies on short term CNS fatigue during training activities, but nothing on long term or chronic states of nervous fatigue.
Can you point to any references on this phenomenon?
A while back I ran into a guy who used to teach where I got my PT education. I asked him about it, and in his opinion it was virtually impossible to overload the CNS for longer periods of time. I’m not sure I believe him at all though. What you say seems more reasonable, and corresponds better with real world experience.
[/quote]
The guy above me is right. As far as I’m aware there might not be any direct research into the area but there are numerous studies which produce subjects suffering from fatigue that have lead the researchers to believe that CNS fatigue is the only explanation.
Besides if you know it occurs you don’t need studies for it unless you’re writing a literature review on the area, which I doubt.
Sorry, perhaps this has been answered but i can’t find a definitive one. For CT, this I,BB program that is presently on the site, is this “Stage 1” of a more comprehensive program? Will you be posting further stages or are we expected to use our own knowledge gained from this stage to set up further programming?
I say this based on seeing your log and use of such techniques as weight-releasing,etc. Will future stages(assuming there are any) incorporate more of these “advanced” methods to the I,BB protocol?
edit: just noticed we both joined this forum at the same time, hehe…been a long time!