Hi Coach,
thank you for your previous post.
In the approach above,
how much protein should be taken per pound of body weight, from solid food and powder (in Mass & Fat Loss phase)?
What about the role of the other macronutrients?
thank you again.
Coach,
Are there any potential drawbacks to consuming that much of a casein protein on a regular basis? I notice casein is often implicated as a common source of food intolerances. Would the easy digestibility of casein hydrolysate prevent that from being a potential issue?
Also, what would you say to those out there who claim that all of these guidelines simply promote reliance on supplements and obsessive compulsive eating that is regimented to the extreme?
I realize that optimal rarely means easy and never run-of-the-mill, but many world-class physiques were built long before such strategies, so I am curious if the real-world difference in results will be that significant over the long haul. i.e. will the ultimate ceiling be the same and just achieved more quickly with these strategies or are these so powerful as to likely raise a person’s natural ceiling for muscular gains
I hope my questions did not come across as a backhanded swipe at you, because they were not intended as such. My respect for you is of the highest magnitude, and these questions were meant in the spirit of sincerity.
Hi Christian,
Change of subject…
I am planning to start your HSS-100 program next week. My priorities are hams, shoulders and chest. Would it be OK to arrange the split something like this?
Sun: hams
Mon: chest
Tue: off
Wed: shoulders
Thu: quads
Fri: back
Sat: off
And should I do the full 16 week program (accumulation, intensification, high volume, max strength) before attempting a shoulder or chest specialization? Also, did you ever release a hamstring specialization?
Thanks in advance,
C
Thibs,
I’ve heard that leucine causes a huge spike in insulin, would taking leucine before meals lead to too much fat gain? or is this insulin spike part of the reason why it is so anabolic?
Hey Coach,
I have a friend of mine competing in strongman. He would train 2 times per week in the gym and then one “total body” strongman workout at the end of the week.
What would be a rational split for his workouts? Please feel free to ignore my request if the question is troll.
Thanks
Me
Thib, what would you reccomend to someone that plays hockey at midnight to keep cortisol at normal levels?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Italiano wrote:
DH wrote:
Get 5 meals.
7am meal
9am AA
11am meal
1pm AA
3pm meal
5pm AA
7pm meal
9pm meal (casein)
During the AA times, are you suggesting 8-10g bcaa’s + an additional 4-5g leucine? Is there any benefits to adding in a serving of casein hydrolysate or whey hydrolysate or even whey isolate along with the AA?
Thanks, interesting stuff!
BTW, although the approach above is ‘‘okay’’, and it is the one I used a few years back, it is not optimal.
It looks good on paper, but it suffers from two problems:
- Protein blackout… solide protein sources normally take more than 2 hours to fully digest. Actually some meat are not fully digested until 6-8 hours later.
This creates a constant trickle of amino acid into the bloodstream, the amplitude of which is very low. In other words you always have some aminos entering the blood but never a level high enough to stimulate hyperaminocidemia.
The problem is that, contrary to what is generally believed, to maximize growth WE DO NOT WANT A CONSTANT TRICKLE OF AMINO ACIDS. This actually lead to protein oxydation and a DECREASE in protein synthesis! YES, you breakdown less muscle tissue, BUT you elevate the enzymes responsible for oxydizing (wasting) amino acids. So although you are breaking down less tissuem you are also building less tissue.
In some situations you WANT that to happen (before bedtime to avoid catabolism during the night’s fast) but if you want to build as much muscle as possible you actually want periods where there is roughly no amino acids in the blood followed by quick surges in amino acids. For maximum results both need to happen. And the more often you go from super low to super high, the more muscle you’ll build.
If you have too many solid protein, especially of the kind that is slowly digested and absorbed, you will reduce you potential muscle growth.
HOWEVER solid protein sources have the upper hand when dieting down because it will prevent muscle breakdown/loss. As a reminder, constant blood aminos = less muscle being built and less muscle being broken down… amino acid peaks and valleys = more muscle being built and potentially more muscle being broken down (this is why we also need periods where solid food is ingested).
The approach I recommend is:
-
PARA-WORKOUT (this is KEY): we want a peak right before and right after training. So super fast absorbed protein like casein or whey hydrolysate is needed. If you are not dieting down, some fast-absorbed carbs will enhance the effect by stimulating the release of insulin.
-
1 hour after your workout: you want a second amino peak/surge to maximize the anabolic response to training. So again, casein or whey hydrolysate.
-
Immediately upon waking up: you want an amino peak/surge to quickly reverse the body’s state from catabolism to anabolism. You should actually take you casein or whey hydrolysate alone (no solid food) when you wake up, or with some carbs (if you are not dieting down). If you are on a low-carbs diet, wait 20-30minutes after your shake to have your breakfast.
These are your main pulse/surge times. Depending on when you train you might have time for another surge during the day.
-
Before bed you want solid protein that is slowly absorbed to have a constant trickle of aminos during the night. YES casein MICELLAR might be slow enough, but solid food is the number one choice here.
-
You can have another solid protein meal for lunch PROVIDED THAT YOUR TRAINING SESSION IS AT LEAST 3-4 HOURS AWAY.
NOTE that solid meals being constituted of rapidly absorbed protein sources like pork tenderloins and egg whites will have a lesser negative impact; they are not as likely to cause protein oxydation.[/quote]
Coach, thanks for sharing. I think I am starting to grasp the concept above. A couple of questions please:
- HCL still with solid food/meals only, yes?
- If someone is using Receptormax, would this also be before solid food/meals only?
- On the low protein day, would you recommend target net carbs to stay in the ranges you set based on weight according to the clients BF%? I think 1 gram for 10% or less, .75 grams for 10-15% and .5 grams for 15% or higher?
- Biotest’s Grow! Whey has no hydrosylate, correct?
Thanks for your time and thank you for sharing the “newest” research as well as ideas on how to integrate in to our lives.
Christian Thibaudeau,
I’ve the neccassary resources to test-drive this type of diet during Mechanical Drop Set Program. I can follow it exactly.
This scheme is different to what you suggest in your book and you mentioned before that you are not so much into counting calories. I’m not that type of guy who puts in mass easily and I just had to calculate how much I will get from the plan suggested by you and that is not much, so my concern is of course if wether I should or should not add anything else. (I’m also < 10% BF and 170 pounds)
Should I start with the exact what you suggested and if I have not gained any weight during first week, bump up calories?
Also, you suggest 1 cup rice and 1 potatoe?
1 cup uncooked rice is like enough for 3 persons and 1 potatoe is only 30g of carbs? Different recommendations don’t add up, what is some kind of typo? Or you meant cooked rice?
Thanks for the new information, I’ll be sure to report back with the results from the program and this new kind of diet.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
daffyduck wrote:
Wow, this is really interesting. I’ve been eating at least 1.5 grams of protein for at least 4 yrs. What would a sample day of this look like if one weighed 170lbs. And how long should one do this and how often should one do this strategy.
*** I know that you are at less than 10% body fat (since I measured you myself) and that you want to gain size… so:
PRE-BREAKFAST
20g of casein hydrolysate
5g leucine
BREAKFAST (20-30 minutes later)
8-10 egg whites
200g berries
SNACK (3 hours after breakfast)
20g of casein hydrolysate OR 30g of whey hydrolysate
5g leucine
LUNCH (90-120 minutes after snack)
200g pork tenderloin or 10 egg whites
1 cup rice or 1 potatoe
SNACK (3 hours after snack)
20g of casein hydrolysate OR 30g of whey hydrolysate
5g leucine
DINNER
OPTION 1 (if dinner is at least 2 hours after your workout)
300g red meat
Big salad with olive oil
OPTION 2 (if dinner is prior to your workout… but in that case it has to be at least 2 hours prior)
200g pork tenderloin or 10 egg whites
1 cup rice or 1 potatoe
EVENING SNACK
2 whole eggs
100g cottage cheese or 1 scoop low-carbs Metabolic Drive
Green veggies
To that you tack on the para-workout strategy explained in my prior post.
*NOTE: someone who is LEAN (under 10%), is in a mass-gaining phase, and can’t afford or find casein hydrolysate, can use 1 scoop of SURGE RECOVERY instead of the casein hydrolysate (since SR is whey hydrolysate and some BCAAs plus some carbs).
*NOTE 2: I recommend one low-protein day per week (non-training day) where you only protein (in a signficant amount) during the last two meals of the day (solid food).
[/quote]
Coach,
With all the discussions about para-workout nutrition and the pulsing described above, how would you adjust the Get Jacked Diet? Have your nutrient guidelines for fat loss changed? If so, could you describe the changes?
Thanks!
coach,
I work out at 5 am in the morning… I wake up and have two scoops of Metabolic Drive at 430 with some Flameout and during my workout i drink ICE bcaa drink followed by Surge Recovery… I wanted to start using Surge Workout Fuel and wanted to know how how you think i should use it if I work out at 5am… should i just wake up and have the Surge Workout Fuel and hit the gym?.. any help with what I should have when i wake up and prior to my workout would be much appreciated
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
daffyduck wrote:
Wow, this is really interesting. I’ve been eating at least 1.5 grams of protein for at least 4 yrs. What would a sample day of this look like if one weighed 170lbs. And how long should one do this and how often should one do this strategy.
*** I know that you are at less than 10% body fat (since I measured you myself) and that you want to gain size… so:
PRE-BREAKFAST
20g of casein hydrolysate
5g leucine
BREAKFAST (20-30 minutes later)
8-10 egg whites
200g berries
SNACK (3 hours after breakfast)
20g of casein hydrolysate OR 30g of whey hydrolysate
5g leucine
LUNCH (90-120 minutes after snack)
200g pork tenderloin or 10 egg whites
1 cup rice or 1 potatoe
SNACK (3 hours after snack)
20g of casein hydrolysate OR 30g of whey hydrolysate
5g leucine
DINNER
OPTION 1 (if dinner is at least 2 hours after your workout)
300g red meat
Big salad with olive oil
OPTION 2 (if dinner is prior to your workout… but in that case it has to be at least 2 hours prior)
200g pork tenderloin or 10 egg whites
1 cup rice or 1 potatoe
EVENING SNACK
2 whole eggs
100g cottage cheese or 1 scoop low-carbs Metabolic Drive
Green veggies
To that you tack on the para-workout strategy explained in my prior post.
*NOTE: someone who is LEAN (under 10%), is in a mass-gaining phase, and can’t afford or find casein hydrolysate, can use 1 scoop of SURGE RECOVERY instead of the casein hydrolysate (since SR is whey hydrolysate and some BCAAs plus some carbs).
*NOTE 2: I recommend one low-protein day per week (non-training day) where you only protein (in a signficant amount) during the last two meals of the day (solid food).
[/quote]
Any idea how many calories that is roughly? lol it’s weird to see you recommending a higher carb diet (I know this is a good plan and carbs are best for optimum growth, I only mean that I generally see you as a low carb guy).
Hey Thib,
Great discussion! Your approach is very similar to Dave Barrâ??s (10 myths article and Anabolic Index)
General Statement: I am not attempting to banter with Thib or create any friction. This is a great discussion and I want all the members, especially newbs, to understand the difference between discussion and belligerent contention.
Thib (and all interested), I will try to address some of your concerns below:
Issue 1: Just what level of blood aminos are needed before we can trigger Protein Synthesis again?
1: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E761-7. Epub 2004 Nov 30
Exogenous amino acids stimulate human muscle anabolism without interfering with the response to
mixed meal ingestion
Paddon-Jones D, et al.
This is probably the crux of our difference of opinion:
We don’t need blood concentrations of aminos to go to baseline to experience the anabolic effects of hyperaminoacidemia. This study by Paddon-Jones ,Wolfe et al. used a feeding pattern of consumption every 2.5 hours. A solid meal then an amino cocktail 2.5 hours later, then another solid meal 2.5 hours later. These were LARGE mixed meals that were 850 calories each. Now considering that this study shows that it is unnecessary to hit rock bottom but rather we only need to peak and then begin to drop back toward baseline, I think my approach gives more opportunities to benefit from more pulses. In this study each meal contained at least 30-40g of protein and a boatload of CHO and fat, and we see that even though it takes many hours to digest this food, This did not blunt the EAA cocktail from boosting PS. Importantly, the subjects DID NOT return to baseline before ingesting the aminos which shows us that is is NOT necessary to drop all the way to baseline. This is a good thing. We ONLY need to have a drop occur, which happens after two hours or so.
It’s the increase in extracellular amino acid levels triggers protein synthesis, while a decrease lowers protein synthesis, despite absolute concentrations. So if your amino acid levels rise 200 %, and then fall to 100 % above resting levels, protein synthesis will most start to lower to basal levels again. However, if you again raise amino acid levels at that point, you will get another increase in protein synthesis. An even bigger rise because this time you started above baseline.
The methodology used by Dave and your yourself also employs this idea when you piggy back two post-workout shakes just 1 hour apart so as to achieve a double increase and compound the anabolic effects. This is what Mauro (Dr DiPasquale) calls a “square wave effect”. Likewise, the Paddon-Jones study shows that this is possible to do by cycling solid meals and amino drinks. The solid meals do not interfere with the anabolic response to the supplements and vice versa.
“The machinery which increases protein synthesis goes refractory when amino acids are raised and held at a constant rate for an extended period of time. For example, in studies in which authors increase blood amino acid levels through intravenous infusion, and maintain those levels at say 200 % above resting, after 2 hours protein synthesis will start returning to resting levels. The system may act on some form of negative feedback.
In response to this, a number of scientists have suggested that continually consuming slow digesting proteins can mimic intravenous infusion, and though amino acid levels are risen for hours on end, cause the system to lower protein synthesis. However, a fast digesting protein source, like whey, or essential amino acids will rapidly rise, and possibly fall within 1-2 hours.” J. Wilson
Issue 2: Is regular old whey able to get the job done vs AA or CH or WYH?
While I agree that AAs and hydrolyzed proteins may offer some benefit I believe that even standard old whey can get the job done just fine here too if finances demand it. To me, the biggest benefit to using EAA and/or BCAA is the fact that you get the job done with fewer calories which helps with fat loss while still maximizing anabolism. I feel whey is likely acceptable because of the following info:
Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2009 Apr;34(2):151-61
Stimulation of muscle anabolism by exercise and ingestion of leucine plus protein
Tipton, K et al.
This study showed that whey and a few grams of add leucine hit a peak between 60-120 minutes after ingestion and then dropped. And since we only need the drop rather than a full return to baseline we can then trigger a second peak soon after. Thus showing that whey will get the job done. Taking whey and then eating a solid meal two hours later will allow for enough of a drop in AA levels to register the normal anabolic response to a meal. Then two hours later we will piggy back off of this new (higher than baseline) blood amino concentration to piggy back upward for a strong stimulus to PS. Again referring back to the study by Paddon-Jones et al.
Issue 3: Does CH, being a complete protein, work better than EAAs or BCAA’s?
Again considering that the solid meal will be trickling out aminos for hours just as you stated in your post, we will have any assisting NEAA (non essential amino acids) in the bloodstream to be just fine if we have any needs. But really,a complete protein is unnecessary.
Once again the Paddon-Jones study showed no problems with triggering large increases in protein synthesis by only taking an incomplete (EAA) mixture. There is plenty of substrate in the event it is needed, but studies show that NEAA add no benefit to PS stimulation.
Here are two great studies showing that the NEAAs are completely unnecessary in this instance:
J Nutr Biochem. 1999 Feb;10(2):89-95
Nonessential amino acids are not necessary to stimulate net muscle protein synthesis in healthyolunteers.
Tipton, et al
Can J Appl Physiol. 2001;26 Suppl:S220-7.
Effects of amino acid intake on anabolic processes
Wolfe RR
Both state point-blank that NEAA add no benefit to anabolism.
Issue 4: Getting an insulin rise. Aminos vs CH or even WYH.
We both agree that ingesting CHO is NOT needed to stimulate insulin. Yes CH doses a good job of boosting insulin and thatâ??s a good thing. But BCAA (really leucine) also stimulates insulin to a lesser but sufficient degree.
Biotest BCAA ad: “BCAA taken during training have been shown to increase both growth hormone and insulin, thus increasing anabolism and anti-catabolism”
Dr. Eric Serrano: “Also, BCAA’s increase insulin sufficiently so that you end up getting bigger and leaner. Yes, BCCA can help you lose fat but not like you are thinking. BCAA’s are essential amino acids that can provide your body with fuel like sugar but without actual sugar. Leucine elevates your insulin levels but because the body hasn’t consumed sugar the only thing that can go into the muscle is amino acids which will build muscle and at the same time increases metabolic rate to increase fat loss.”
Christian Thibaudeau: “BCAAs, in particular leucine, will stimulate insulin to a modest degree allowing anabolic potential independent of CHO.”
Extra info that I know Thib is aware of but thought others may find interesting:
One pathway through which protein synthesis can be increased is the phosphatodyl-inositol-3-kinase pathway (PI3K). PI3K regulates glucose uptake through GLUT4 translocation and also increases amino acid uptake. Insulin, the body’s “storage” hormone, works by activating the PI3K pathway.
Interestingly, leucine ingestion causes insulin secretion, but leucine can also directly activate PI3K in the absence insulin (Nishitani et al. 2002), suggesting leucine to have a synergistic role with insulin as a PI3K activator (Layman, 2002). So not only can leucine increase glucose uptake, it can also increase it’s own and other amino acids’ uptake into cells. These facts suggest that taking additional BCAA with carbohydrates around ones workout will lead to a synergistic increase in glucose and amino acid uptake into skeletal muscle. Leucine can stimulate protein synthesis through insulin secretion and the activation of the PI3K pathway, but can also stimulate protein synthesis through other pathways.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
REGARDING ALL THE POSTS ABOUT AMINO ACID PULSING
The approach that DH talked about is pretty effective. Yn fact it’s something I presented a few years ago when I talked about the strategy of consuming 5-10g of BCAAs 5 times a day between meals.
However from the current research it is not the optimal approach.
YES pulsing essential amino acids or BCAAs (heck, you could pulse only leucine and it would work) is effective at initiating the protein synthesis mechanism.
HOWEVER since the EAA or BCAAs are not complete protein, protein synthesis (the actual act of building muscle) will be sub-optimal because you will not have a large amount of all the amino acids present in the blood when the protein synthesis mechanism is activated.
YES there is likely a small amount of each of the amino acids still present in the blood from the previous solid meal (which can actually be problematic… for maximum results you want to go from almost no amino acids in the blood to a ton of it real quickly) but not at levels high enough to maximize anabolism.
But the real problem is a lack of insulin release. You can stimulate the protein synthesis processes as much as you want, if you cannot transport the amino acids into the muscle, you will not be able to optimally build muscle tissue.
A better approach is to pulse a complete protein. But one that is fast-absorbed enough to cause a state of hyperaminoacidemia AND release insulin. CASEIN HYDROLYSATE is the fastest absorbed protein, because it is broken into peptides, di-peptides and tri-peptides. Some info even suggest that CH is absorbed faster than free-form amino acids.
Furthermore, CH is insulinogenic, meaning that it stimulates the release of insulin. Because of these two reasons, pulsing with CH would be much more anabolic than using EAA.
Whey hydrolysate can also do the job as it is fast enough to cause a state of hyperaminoacidemia, but the faster the better… so CH will be superior to basically anything you can find.[/quote]
[quote]crod266 wrote:
Thib, what would you reccomend to someone that plays hockey at midnight to keep cortisol at normal levels?[/quote]
It will actually be almost impossible to do. Come midnight, cortisol levels, when following their natural circadian rythms will be at their lowest point in the day. Obviously the hockey game will screw the circadian rythms up.
What you are asking is kinda like asking how to avoid a bullet when being shot at point blank!
The best you can do is really try to drive down cortisol as soon as the game is over. A pretty high dose of glycine (0.1g per pound), phosphatidylserine (800mg) as well as perfect post-workout nutrition will decrease cortisol levels by around 50%… not perfect, but still useful.
Then you absolutely must go into deep sleep as fast as possible. Z-12 can be of good use if you have a hard time falling asleep.
[quote]shoelessjones wrote:
- HCL still with solid food/meals only, yes?
[/quote]
Correct
[quote]shoelessjones wrote:
2. If someone is using Receptormax, would this also be before solid food/meals only?[/quote]
If you add carbs to your shakes, it can be used there too.
[quote]shoelessjones wrote:
3. On the low protein day, would you recommend target net carbs to stay in the ranges you set based on weight according to the clients BF%? I think 1 gram for 10% or less, .75 grams for 10-15% and .5 grams for 15% or higher? [/quote]
Although it might be overdoing things in most cases, if you REALLY want to be precise, yeah, that’s a good starting point.
[quote]shoelessjones wrote:
4. Biotest’s Grow! Whey has no hydrosylate, correct?[/quote]
Correct
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Any idea how many calories that is roughly?[/quote]
No, I rarely function with calories anymore. Only quantities of food and nutrients.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
lol it’s weird to see you recommending a higher carb diet (I know this is a good plan and carbs are best for optimum growth, I only mean that I generally see you as a low carb guy). [/quote]
-
I’m not a low-carbs guy… I’m not a high-carbs guy… I’m not a carbs cycling guy. I’m a guy that adjust the nutritional strategy used to the individual’s needs and particularities.
-
The guy who I responded to is lean (less than 10%), not very heavy for his height (170 on 5’10’') and wants to add mass. These individuals tolerate carbs well.
-
The sample diet provided is actually not that high in carbs. I would call it a moderate carbs diet.
Great Q & A Christian. Do you modify the workout window dietary advice for gear assisted clients? Particularly for those using class II’s?
[quote]NZ RABBIT wrote:
Great Q & A Christian. Do you modify the workout window dietary advice for gear assisted clients? Particularly for those using class II’s?[/quote]
This is one subject I do not discuss.
coach i believe in the new para workout dring you recommended 2 scoops Surge if in a max muscle phase post workout. i was wondering if you may have meant 2 servings since the Surge label says 1 serving is equal to 3 scoops(46g carbs/25g pro). the reason i ask is currently im having 2 servings(92g carbs 50g pro) post workout and dont seem to be gaining any fat but didnt know if I should lower it to the 2 scoops. thanks
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
shoelessjones wrote:
- HCL still with solid food/meals only, yes?
Correct
shoelessjones wrote:
2. If someone is using Receptormax, would this also be before solid food/meals only?
If you add carbs to your shakes, it can be used there too.
shoelessjones wrote:
3. On the low protein day, would you recommend target net carbs to stay in the ranges you set based on weight according to the clients BF%? I think 1 gram for 10% or less, .75 grams for 10-15% and .5 grams for 15% or higher?
Although it might be overdoing things in most cases, if you REALLY want to be precise, yeah, that’s a good starting point.
shoelessjones wrote:
4. Biotest’s Grow! Whey has no hydrosylate, correct?
Correct
[/quote]
Thanks Coach. I don’t need to be that precise and I think I understand that this (nutrition, pulsing, etc) is not a black and white concept… however, I was just trying to get a feel for what it might look like and you helped me a great deal with your answers. Thank you!
coach, 1 more question. on my non workout days i have 50g carbs so if one of these days if going to be the low protein day should i increase carbs or fats since reducing protein will create a deficit in nutrients for that day thanks.