Thanks alot for developping and explaning the HP Mass program.
As I’m a beginner, I wonder if this training method won’t be too much volume for a beginner (16 y/o).
Currently following my own variation of WSB4SB (upper body/lower body-split).
Would love to hear your opinion on this![/quote]
Just because this question got ignored…
It’s important for me to know, as I’m only in the “business” for about 1 year.[/quote]
well give it as crack, even if it is then you only lose 3 weeks and if you overtain you’ll bounce back bigger and stronger after a lay off anyway…you can still use the principles of the program (activation, the 3 training zones, ramping etc) and apply it to almost any program
[/quote]
I agree. I’m not CT, but I don’t think it’s too much volume for you PROVIDED you do 2 things—
work into the frequency gradually (since you haven’t been squatting more than 1-2x a week in WS4SB). Moving straight into high frequency the 1st week may or may not give you problems adjusting
Never, ever, ever grind out any reps. This goes hand in hand with #1. The problem with this program isn’t the program–it’s people not doing what they’re supposed to on the program. Thibs himself said that even Alex, Kevin, and Daryl would get off track and start grinding reps out and piling weight on if he left them on their own for a couple weeks. In my experience–and that of almost every veteran I know–that’s the biggest problem with new lifters–they don’t know when to “save it” for the next session/week/month.
That’s not to say you don’t try to add weight when you retest, or that you go super light. It’s supposed to be challenging. It’s just not supposed to be all-out effort…because that’s not sustainable for 4x a week squatting or what have you.
The whole idea behind this program is explosive power and NOT GRINDING reps. If you get away from those two concepts–even if you’re advanced–you run a risk of overtraining yourself because of the extra nervous system fatigue.[/quote]
I might add in .02 as well - idea of program is increasing mechanical loading without exceeding ones capacity to recover. I have made SLIGHT adjustments to my own program while still pretty much following CT’s blueprint. The program is my favorite I have trained under in 20 yrs.
If shoulders are healthy for overhead pressing, which movement is better for growth, the push press or seated behind neck press?
While my shoulders are healthy for overhead pressing, they do not like the flat BB press. Since starting off with overhead pressing, my bench press is better. Before I could not high incline or flat bench without shoulder pain unless I used a real wide grip. I am now able to high incline and low incline press without pain.
However, even though it is better than before, I still cannot flat bench unless I use a wide grip (index finger on outside rings). I feel like this is opening me up to injury though. It’s funny, I can guillotine press totally pain free and they shred my chest - I am using a wide grip though.
I have been doing push press, low incline press, flat press. I really think I would be better off dropping the flat press. What are your thoughts on replacing it with the guillotine press?
CT: All the fast turnarounds on pressing movements are causing me “squashed” biscep/brachais strains. I have had to cut short the last few HP upper body workouts.
Suggestions (i’ve skipped the biscep training during this problem)? Press off pins is obviously an option but i have always got best chest development from heavy weighted dips, which unfortunately is the worst for this. Do elbow wraps help?
1st born is due this coming wed so time will be severely limited so what i am trying to do is to break up the program into shorter sessions and more frequently
so i added up all the max training zone sets and hope to split them up more from mon - fri like this
train mon, tue, wed, thu and fri (sat lat/bi day - ecc-less stuff to go somewhere too)
week 1 - upper press 8 sets each day / lower press 4 sets each day
week 2 - 13 / 6
week 3 - 20 / 8
1st born is due this coming wed so time will be severely limited so what i am trying to do is to break up the program into shorter sessions and more frequently
so i added up all the max training zone sets and hope to split them up more from mon - fri like this
train mon, tue, wed, thu and fri (sat lat/bi day - ecc-less stuff to go somewhere too)
week 1 - upper press 8 sets each day / lower press 4 sets each day
week 2 - 13 / 6
week 3 - 20 / 8
doable or not?[/quote]
Week 3 might get a big long for your needs, but otherwise you should be able to handle it if you stay in the proper training zone.
If shoulders are healthy for overhead pressing, which movement is better for growth, the push press or seated behind neck press?
While my shoulders are healthy for overhead pressing, they do not like the flat BB press. Since starting off with overhead pressing, my bench press is better. Before I could not high incline or flat bench without shoulder pain unless I used a real wide grip. I am now able to high incline and low incline press without pain.
However, even though it is better than before, I still cannot flat bench unless I use a wide grip (index finger on outside rings). I feel like this is opening me up to injury though. It’s funny, I can guillotine press totally pain free and they shred my chest - I am using a wide grip though.
I have been doing push press, low incline press, flat press. I really think I would be better off dropping the flat press. What are your thoughts on replacing it with the guillotine press?[/quote]
For shoulders I would avoid the behind the neck press right now. I would stick to the push press and a variation of the military press (I like to do 2/3 of my military press with a regular grip and 1/3 with a wide grip).
NORMALLY the guillotine press is hard on the shoulders. Even though you are fine with it for now, I would avoid it.
If shoulders are healthy for overhead pressing, which movement is better for growth, the push press or seated behind neck press?
While my shoulders are healthy for overhead pressing, they do not like the flat BB press. Since starting off with overhead pressing, my bench press is better. Before I could not high incline or flat bench without shoulder pain unless I used a real wide grip. I am now able to high incline and low incline press without pain.
However, even though it is better than before, I still cannot flat bench unless I use a wide grip (index finger on outside rings). I feel like this is opening me up to injury though. It’s funny, I can guillotine press totally pain free and they shred my chest - I am using a wide grip though.
I have been doing push press, low incline press, flat press. I really think I would be better off dropping the flat press. What are your thoughts on replacing it with the guillotine press?[/quote]
For shoulders I would avoid the behind the neck press right now. I would stick to the push press and a variation of the military press (I like to do 2/3 of my military press with a regular grip and 1/3 with a wide grip).
NORMALLY the guillotine press is hard on the shoulders. Even though you are fine with it for now, I would avoid it. [/quote]
CT what’s your opinon on push presses and military presses with reverse(supinated grip)? better or worse then regular? how is the triceps/ shoulder activation compared to regular
NORMALLY the guillotine press is hard on the shoulders. Even though you are fine with it for now, I would avoid it. [/quote]
Is this just in his case because of his previous shoulder issues or for everyone? I’ve heard a lot of people say good things about guillotine press for the upper chest, including from you I think.
I tried this for the first time today and love it, esp the lat work (low position straight arm pulls esp). Can this be done more than once per week (i.e., does it cause neural fatigue and neural shutdown like lat work generally - my bis are shit house but part of this is simply how boring i find working them out…enjoyed bi sled work)
CT, in the pulse-fast livespill you posted the following…
Christian Thibaudeau: @ Morphing Matt: Here is what I do… Monday: fast/upper body performance (focused on pressing), Tuesday: All-out eating/lats and biceps lots of volume, Wednesday: Maintenance eating/Upper body performance (pressing) and 1-2 basic leg movements, Thursday: Fast/neural charge, Friday: All-out eating/Lats and biceps, Saturday: maintenance/upper body performance, Sunday: high caloric intake but good food/legs
If following the HPMass principles, is it possible to have 3 upper body performance days with a squat or deadlift to each day similar to what you outlined above?
I would probably make Friday a leg day but I’m curious just how much would be possible if as I said we follow the principles of working with our MTW.
Just want to make sure I get your recommendations for workout nutrition and sled work right.
When doing sled work by itself you said to load up on as much MAG-10 as possible. Are we talking 2-3 scoops or something around 5 or so? And is all the MAG-10 to be consumed immediately before sled work?
What about doing sled work immediately after an hp mass workout? Would you just drink the last 3rd of the protocol right after you finish lifting and then use the sled or would you add some more MAG-10 after you finish the protocol and before using the sled?
Could sled work be done every day as long as you only hit every body part 5 times a week? So something like - 2 day all legs, 2 days all upper and 2-3 days whole body?
1 more question - Since lats are the muscle group that respond the best to eccentric-less loading and their focused on only 1 day a week, is it best to almost always get in some lat work every time you use the sled?
Thanks a lot for the great work you’ve done explaining all about the hp mass program. So much fun!
new yrs eve…9.57pm…still about 35 degrees here in oz…wife about to five birth so a very slow night which means i’m bored shitless so i’ll post my plan i’ll follow after this 2nd cycle of hp mass
as i posted above i’m looking at doing a moderate amount most days rather then a lot of some days with the baby coming and new trainer to train up at work
i’ve matched up the amount of sets in the max training zone to my new plan from ct’s original hp mass plan
upper body - 192
mp - 72
ip - 72
bp - 48
lower body - 96
bs - 48
deads 48
i intend to train mon through to fri with upper/lower press with lats/bi’s sat
Cycle 1 - 3 weeks
session 1 - mp x 3 / ip x 3 / bp x 3 / back sq x 5
session 2 - mp x 3 / ip x 3 / bp x 3 / deads x 5
session 3 - mp x 3 / ip x 3 / bp x 3 / back sq x 5
session 4 - mp x 3 / ip x 3 / bp x 3 / deads x 5
session 5 - mp x 3 / ip x 3 / bp x 3 / back sq x 5
session 6 - mp x 3 / ip x 3 / bp x 3 / deads x 5
session 7 - mp x 4 / ip x 4 / bp x 3 / back sq x 3 / deads x 3
session 8 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 3 / deads x 3
session 9 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 3 / deads x 3
session 10 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 4 / deads x 3
session 11 - mp x 6 / ip x 6 / bp x 3 / back sq x 3 / deads x 4
session 12 - mp x 7 / ip x 7 / bp x 3 / back sq x 3 / deads x 4
session 13 - mp x 7 / ip x 7 / bp x 7 / back sq x 4 / deads x 4
session 14 - mp x 7 / ip x 7 / bp x 4 / back sq x 4 / deads x 4
session 15 - mp x 7 / ip x 7 / bp x 4 / back sq x 5 / deads x 5
Cycle 2 - 3 weeks
session 1 - mp x 4 / ip x 4 / bp x 3 / back sq x 5
session 2 - mp x 4 / ip x 4 / bp x 3 / deads x 5
session 3 - mp x 4 / ip x 4 / bp x 3 / back sq x 5
session 4 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / deads x 5
session 5 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 5
session 6 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / deads x 5
session 7 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 3 / deads x 3
session 8 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 3 / deads x 3
session 9 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 3 / deads x 3
session 10 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 4 / deads x 4
session 11 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 4 / deads x 4
session 12 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 3 / back sq x 4 / deads x 4
session 13 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 4 / back sq x 4 / deads x 4
session 14 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 4 / back sq x 4 / deads x 4
session 15 - mp x 5 / ip x 5 / bp x 4 / back sq x 4 / deads x 4
If 1 cycle seems to work better than the other then I’ll just do 2 of that 1 and leave the other cycle out
[quote]Pavlo1 wrote:
Biscep/brachais soreness from pressing:
CT: All the fast turnarounds on pressing movements are causing me “squashed” biscep/brachais strains. I have had to cut short the last few HP upper body workouts.
Suggestions (i’ve skipped the biscep training during this problem)? Press off pins is obviously an option but i have always got best chest development from heavy weighted dips, which unfortunately is the worst for this. Do elbow wraps help?
[/quote]
I actually had the same issue. I thought maybe it was the pectoral tendon since the pain was in the bicep area (deep) but I could curl and do chinups pain free.
Currently, taking some time off pressing. I was recovering fine until it got cold and I stopped doing eccentric-less training, but I also wasn’t doing the volume of pressing in October or November compared to the amount I was doing after HP Mass came out. So I think both factors contributed.
CT,
I looked at what you said about grip training and I wonder if radial and ulnar flexion exerercices are fixes too?
I did some redial and ulnar flexions while mopping around the stairs (= some iso-holds). The day after I felt my grip stronger and I still feel it for over a week in wich I did not do any work for it.
Are those better in my case than what you recommended, or should I drop them?
[quote]Pavlo1 wrote:
Biscep/brachais soreness from pressing:
CT: All the fast turnarounds on pressing movements are causing me “squashed” biscep/brachais strains. I have had to cut short the last few HP upper body workouts.
Suggestions (i’ve skipped the biscep training during this problem)? Press off pins is obviously an option but i have always got best chest development from heavy weighted dips, which unfortunately is the worst for this. Do elbow wraps help?
[/quote]
I actually had the same issue. I thought maybe it was the pectoral tendon since the pain was in the bicep area (deep) but I could curl and do chinups pain free.
Currently, taking some time off pressing. I was recovering fine until it got cold and I stopped doing eccentric-less training, but I also wasn’t doing the volume of pressing in October or November compared to the amount I was doing after HP Mass came out. So I think both factors contributed.
[/quote]
I was having very similar symptoms during my first 3 weeks on HP Mass. This is what I did, not necessarily recommended for everyone.
Performance lifting is 3 days / week instead of 4. MON, WED, FRI.
So, for example, MON is Upper, WED, Upper, FRI Lower then following MON Lower, WED Upper, FRI Upper - repeat.
On Upper performance days I do only 2 lifts instead of 3. I.E. OH Press then Close Grip then on to lower secondary emphasis lift.
Switched out incline bench and incline press from pins for close grip flat bench and floor press.
TUES, THUR, SAT are NC WO’s; SAT after NC WO (about 15 mins) is Foundation day, lats, biceps about 30 mins. SUN off.
Taking 2 scoops Anaconda, 2 scoops MAG-10, 1 scoop WO Fuel every performance day.
Upped Curcumin dosing to 3x/day.
Getting ready to start 5th week HP Mass and now no more pain in forearms or shoulders. Remember, I’m OLD as well as being an ectomorph, well, used to be…So for ME it works.
Apologies to CT for Frankenstein-ing his program. He can kill me later…
Loving current version as stated above and making nice progress.
I like how you took out incline and replaced it with close grip and floor press. Based on my pain (I tested various light weight exercises to see exactly what hurt and what did not), that would work well. When I tried close grip pain was minimal, while exercises that place the elbow out further (think traditional bodybuilding style bench) hurt the bicep area big time. Floor press (or board press) seems like it would be good as well due to the reduced ROM (and correspondingly, reduced stretch on the tendon).
I am going to still take some more time off from pressing, but when I get back into it, will likely implement a strategy similar to yours, i.e. reducing frequency by 1 day and choosing exercises that help me train “around the pain” (a la Wendler’s quote in the recent Blood and Chalk) rather than through it.
Those are scarce. I’m moving to a new place, and I visited the 5 gyms in the area, only one had a pullover machine (I guess I’ll go there, it also has the most quality equipment, it even have a mono).
But for those who don’t have that machine, I was thinking about using a decline bench and pulling over low pulley handle, anything better?
