Thibs New Training Questions #4

Training
761

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]ferox wrote:
Somewhere in one of your videos you said you should “shrug your shoulders when benching for strength.” I always thought you wanted to tuck your shoulder blades for a more solid and stable base.

I was wondering if you could elaborate on this. Are both methods correct and safe and possess different advantages?[/quote]

I will film a video on this… Here is a quick explanation:

For as long as I can remember every time I started to get really strong on the bench press, my shoulder started hurting. I did everything right, but it still ended up hurting. Until I adopted a benching technique that is almost the polar opposite of what is taught in powerlifting circles.

And this is not a dig at the top powerlifters. But I learned that what is applied to equipped powerlifting technique, training and exercise selection-wise is not always adapted to raw lifting.

In powerlifting you are taught to depress and retract the scapula and spread the lats when benching. This technique takes advantage of the bench shirt, and the bench shirt itself stabilized the shoulder joint, decreasing the risk of injury.

But I found that this technique didn’t help me avoid shoulder issues.

What did help is the technique I developed which consists of powerfully contracting (shrugging) the traps when setting up to bench and maintaining that contraction during the whole set. This action stabilized the shoulders A LOT. This helped me to keep my shoulders healthy, even though I’m at my strongest ever, and boosted my bench almost instantly. It did the same with my training partner Nick and all who I’ve taught it to.

The technique is simple:

  • Set-up on the bench… the initial set-up is much like a regular powerlifting bench.
  • Grab the bar and lift your butt in the air. There should be as little of “you” touching the bench as possible, help yourself by pulling on the bar if needed.
  • From that position shrug your traps forcefully as if trying to touch your ears with your shoulders.
  • When this is done, lower yourself back to the bench while keeping the traps contrated HARD. Keep the lower back arched.
  • Unrack the bar, stay shrugged and lower the bar to your chest, still shrugged.
  • Lift the bar explosively from your chest

This technique has the advantage of protecting your shoulders and making it easier to set up. With the traditional powerlifting bench, when you unrack the bar it is hard to keep the lats tensed and the body in the proper position, not so with my technique.

In my experience this method is optimal for the raw lifter, especially if he has shoulder issues.
[/quote]

Interesting.

At what angle are your upper arms to your torso while doing this style of benching? I’ve found that my shoulders bother me if I bench with my arms out closer to 90 degrees and feel much better if I keep them more at closer to 45 degrees. I also find that I feel the 45 degree position in my chest much more.

I’d love to see the video of you explaining this when you film it.

Thanks again for all the helpful information you’ve been putting out lately.[/quote]

Look at the original IBB video… I’m doing a rack press and it is filmed from above. It gives a good idea of what I’m talking about.

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_video#videos/28/Thumbnails

at the 1:54 mark
[/quote]

Thanks CT. Do you do a similar set up for incline bench? Or do you use more of a traditional set-up for that?

I think I might give this set-up a shot next Monday and see how I like it.[/quote]

It’s impossible to do on an incline bench, sadly.
[/quote]

can you comment on incline at all, because I feel like this is where the most problems come from. I’ve had trouble, but doing over head, incline, flat has helped a lot with shoulder issues… you just shared with me about shrugging on a flat bench press.

Any tips for incline to avoid shoulder issues?

762

Thibs I was still wondering on isolation work (just so that I know how to do that kind of work when possible, so I was looking for inspiration in the training lab).

You did (in daryl’s HPM upper-body pm workout) a strength circuit (3-5 reps), an isolation circuit (6-8 reps) and a max rep circuit, right? Just wanting to know how did you manage the loading and volume in the isolation circuit (to me it doesn’t look like it was done to accumulate volume because it appears like there were only 2 circuits but maybe there were more)?

(Now I’m using daryl’s workout as an example just because I need to bring up the size of my sholders because my back and chest are way more developed then the sholders)

BTW: you’re training Alex and Kevin with the HPM program?

763

[quote]illgixxer wrote:
CT, if I don’t have time to make it to the gym on a neural charge day, can I use the sled at home to do one? I don’t think I recall you mentioning doing a NC workout with the sled. Would you perform this like a regular whole body workout just using various eccentricless exercises or would you still do a cycle using light weights that you can explode with?[/quote]

Remember the key to neural charge work is explosiveness. So at home you can do any jump or plyo push up variations as well as short burst sprints with the sled. Explosiveness without fatigue is the goal.

764

[quote]illgixxer wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Mutsanah wrote:
Thibs:

Didn’t know if you were still answering in the LiveSpill but was hoping to ask here:

I switched from back squat to front squat because of my body biomechanics (long legs short torso) and it has helped tremendously.

I am finding that the four days of upper body pressing is taking it’s toll on me despite Anaconda protocol and plenty of sleep. Could be that I’m creeping up on 40 too!

What upper body pressing can I do that is not as taxing so as to be able to recover? Currently I am doing:

MON/TUES
Standing Milt Press
Incline Press
Incline Press from Pins

THURS
(Secondary)
Stand MIlt Press
FRI
(Secondary)
Floor Press

BTW - love the deadlifting 3x a week at 80% of 3RM - it’s 375lbs for me and it has just been absolutely FLYING off the floor.
Had ART today - my chiro said definitely can see a difference in spinal erectors just in a few weeks - nice bonus.

Thanks,
M
[/quote]

I’d cut the incline work. I find that this is what kills my shoulders and whole body the most,

For primary I would recommend:

  • Military
  • Close-grip
  • Floor press (you might have to reverse both as for some the close-grip will be stronger)

OR…

  • Military
  • Floor press
  • Decline bench press[/quote]

This contradicts what I’ve read from others in the past, I always thought flat bench was the worst, thats why I’ve been doing OHP, incline, decline, and now incline has grown on me so much.
[/quote]

Some people do well on inclines, others don’t. It’s a tricky movement in that it has the disadvantages of the bench press (scapula pinned down) while having a greater demand on the shoulder joint.

A good exercise and I like it, but when done too often it is hard on the shoulders.

765

[quote]thoughts1053 wrote:
CT, what exercise choices would you recommend for the HP Mass program if someone wants to bring up the upper portion of their chest? I was thinking of doing Seated OHP, Incline Press, and Floor Press, but are there better options?[/quote]

  • WIDE GRIP military press (about 2-3" wider per side than your normal grip)
  • Incline press
  • WIDE GRIP floor press with the bar lowered toward the clavicle/neck area
766

CT can a NC workout be somehow detrimental to an upcoming workout? I just tried the (incline) plyo pushup and vertical jump for 2 cycles (just to test out the movements) and during my foundation workout (5 mins after) I felt my biceps very weak (using the usual poundages). After the workout I felt something like CNS draining, but 1 hour after I felt recharged.

I have 2 thing I don’t know what to do about:

-Is it ok to do staggered assistance work between sets of pressing and a volume circuit too afterwards? (can I dod this in my lower body day too, or will that hit the CNS too hard?)

-Regarding my isolation circuit I was thinking if this looks ok:
1.Power snatch (I want to learn the oly lifts and the snach is the only one I haven’t treied yet): 3 reps
2.Deadstop (or normal) laterals: 5 reps
3.Deadstop (or normal) front raises: 5 reps
The circuit being repeated 3-5 times
Would that be ok for more size (in the lateral head and in the top of the shoulder)

767

Forgot to mention that you and Kevin made a great progress since the IBB videos.(I guess it’s because IBB had very low volume and almost no fatigue loading)

BTW: For how many years is Kevin training with you?

768

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]workhorse34 wrote:
CT im sorry if this has been answered already but i havent been able to find a answer bout this.
what are your thoughts on stimulants before your workout nutrition protocol.
i have heard it dulls insulin sensitivity and personally whenever i take a bunch of stimulants pre workout it conflicts with ingesting calories duuring the workout in a bunch of ways. do you ever take any stims pre workout?[/quote]

It’s not so much that it hurts insulin sensitivity but that it decreases insulin production via an increase in adrenalin and noradrenalin.

So…

  • It conflicts with the goal of the first portion of the very workout nutrition
  • As you mention it decreases your capacity to ingest nutrients (cut your appetite)
  • Over type it can overload the adrenal glands (forcing them to produce too much)

I would avoid it if your goal is maximum size and strength, unless for an occasional workout where you are going for a record.[/quote]

Would even just drinking a cup of green tea before drinking the protocol make a difference or are we talking about something like Spike?

769

Christian,
Si tu fais Lat/Bi apres Neural Charge(2 fois dans la semaine)le volume doit etre divisé par 2 par rapport a “pure” Lat/Bi Day?
Ou bien tu peux faire 100% du volume Lat/Bi sur ces deux jours?
Merci

770

CT,

What’s your opinion on Mark Rippetoes training methods? Two months ago me and a buddy of mine became members, and I started the I Bodybuilder program and using your training methods. He started training the way Rippetoe suggested, I haven’t seen him in a few weeks and he has been telling me he’s getting huge. I understand there’s a lot of contreversy between both philosphies, but was just wondering if you could clear the air for me?

771

CT, you said in the “Look Like a Bodybuilder, Train Like an Athlete” article that isolation work should be carefully added, because it be detrimental to the overall mass gains. Now with your athletes (bodybuilders) do you try to do a small circuit (i.e. 3 exercises done for 2-3 times with minimal rest) or you rather do one max rep circuit?

How much does each approach cut into the muscle gains?

772

CT, i’m curious, what if your schedule allows you to get all the days in for the HP Mass Program but they are spread out, for example, mon/wed/Fri/Sat and sled/neural charge work can still be done for 30-40 mins on the in-between days but given those days, could the program still be effective? How crucial is the concentrated loading aspect?

773

Thib, How much you add in your neural charge training, esp the jumps to a hockey players program if he is playing a few times a week and also doing speed work? thank you. Also you still dont do any online training at all right??

774

[quote]crod266 wrote:
Thib, How much you add in your neural charge training, esp the jumps to a hockey players program if he is playing a few times a week and also doing speed work? thank you. Also you still dont do any online training at all right??[/quote]

No I don’t do online training.

With hockey players I often use neural charge sessions the day of games.

775

[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
CT, you said in the “Look Like a Bodybuilder, Train Like an Athlete” article that isolation work should be carefully added, because it be detrimental to the overall mass gains. Now with your athletes (bodybuilders) do you try to do a small circuit (i.e. 3 exercises done for 2-3 times with minimal rest) or you rather do one max rep circuit?

How much does each approach cut into the muscle gains?[/quote]

It’s not that they directly cut into muscle gains… if they did, I would never use such an approach.

It is about the finances of training… sometimes “investing” in more isolation work leads to less investment in the money exercises that are responsible for the most growth

I only add isolation work if it doesn’t affect the recovery from the big exercises as well as their performance.

776

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]workhorse34 wrote:
CT im sorry if this has been answered already but i havent been able to find a answer bout this.
what are your thoughts on stimulants before your workout nutrition protocol.
i have heard it dulls insulin sensitivity and personally whenever i take a bunch of stimulants pre workout it conflicts with ingesting calories duuring the workout in a bunch of ways. do you ever take any stims pre workout?[/quote]

It’s not so much that it hurts insulin sensitivity but that it decreases insulin production via an increase in adrenalin and noradrenalin.

So…

  • It conflicts with the goal of the first portion of the very workout nutrition
  • As you mention it decreases your capacity to ingest nutrients (cut your appetite)
  • Over type it can overload the adrenal glands (forcing them to produce too much)

I would avoid it if your goal is maximum size and strength, unless for an occasional workout where you are going for a record.[/quote]

Would even just drinking a cup of green tea before drinking the protocol make a difference or are we talking about something like Spike?[/quote]

Green tea is fine. Spike is fine because it affect the “duration/active life” of the noradrenalin and adrenalin produces, not its output.

I’m talking more about ephedrin and its derivative as well as HIGH doses of caffeine.

777

Hi CT,

When following something like this set/rep scheme (for example in your “Pillars of Strength” article):

Sets: 5
Reps: 7/5/3/5/7

Would one usually expect to stick with the same weight for the first three sets, then lower the weight, then lower the weight again? Or would one expect to load with something like 100kg/110kg/120kg/110kg/100kg?

Many thanks,

Mike

778

[quote]mpaterek wrote:
Hi CT,

When following something like this set/rep scheme (for example in your “Pillars of Strength” article):

Sets: 5
Reps: 7/5/3/5/7

Would one usually expect to stick with the same weight for the first three sets, then lower the weight, then lower the weight again? Or would one expect to load with something like 100kg/110kg/120kg/110kg/100kg?

Many thanks,

Mike[/quote]

Normally the first two sets are more conservative, they serve as a way to get activated. So it could look like this:

95kg/105kg/120kg/115kg/105kg

779

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
CT, you said in the “Look Like a Bodybuilder, Train Like an Athlete” article that isolation work should be carefully added, because it be detrimental to the overall mass gains. Now with your athletes (bodybuilders) do you try to do a small circuit (i.e. 3 exercises done for 2-3 times with minimal rest) or you rather do one max rep circuit?

How much does each approach cut into the muscle gains?[/quote]

It’s not that they directly cut into muscle gains… if they did, I would never use such an approach.

It is about the finances of training… sometimes “investing” in more isolation work leads to less investment in the money exercises that are responsible for the most growth

I only add isolation work if it doesn’t affect the recovery from the big exercises as well as their performance.[/quote]

Now I get the ideea CT! The only thing is wich kind of isolation work do you tipically invest in (when you chose to add some)?

Is it more like a circuit (or another density technique) wich is stopped after a couple of rounds or is it more like one max rep circuit?

(I’m asking because you recommended in a livespill - to someone- to do 3-4 circuits of 6-10 reps for triceps isolation work (as an example), yet in some programs (like that push\pull\leg\arms) you were still doing like 3 main movments but for isolation work you added 1-2 max rep circuits; that’s why I don’t know wich approch to pick. Your opinion will be much appreciated.)

780

Hey Coach :slight_smile:

I got a question and I am sorry if it has been discussed before but I have been searching to find an answer to this question.

In the high performance mass program when you do legs as a seconday emphasis on your upper pushing days, how are the legs trained that day? Do you just ramp up in 3 reps till you lose your explosiveness and so forth?

Thanks