.
Hey Thibs, I recently asked a question in the LiveSpill about how you would modify HP mass for someone looking purely to increase strength and explosive power (volleyball player) and I feel like it got misinterpreted for obvious reasons. What I am really trying to ask is what principles/methods would you keep and what would you do differently? I’m assuming you would keep things such as neural activation exercises and eccentric less training, but maybe lower the volume while training at a higher intensity?
Also, if I’m correct an exercise such as a volleyball swing or a javelin throw has a lighter strength requirement then something such as jumping or shot put. I’m guessing you might train the javelin thrower with lighter weight and more acceleration than the shot putter, would that be correct?
Thanks for you help coach, not looking for a program or anything, just wanted to pick your brain for a few ideas that would help me in my training.
Hey coach what do you think of this form of progress:
Lets say you work up to a MFP of 275 one week, then the next week you get 280, then the next week you get 280 again and know 285 would be too slow. So you add another set of 270 done explosively. Maybe the next week you get to 280 again and realize 285 would still not be explosive enough so you follow the 280 with 2 sets of explosive 270. Then the next week you get 285 and stop there. Essentially, adding more explosive but near MFP sets for volume in the workouts where you can’t add weight.
What do you think?
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Hey coach what do you think of this form of progress:
Lets say you work up to a MFP of 275 one week, then the next week you get 280, then the next week you get 280 again and know 285 would be too slow. So you add another set of 270 done explosively. Maybe the next week you get to 280 again and realize 285 would still not be explosive enough so you follow the 280 with 2 sets of explosive 270. Then the next week you get 285 and stop there. Essentially, adding more explosive but near MFP sets for volume in the workouts where you can’t add weight.
What do you think?[/quote]
It’s a method I often use myself and something that my old coach used to have us to. You have my blessing.
CT,
I’m currently following the HP mass split exactly as outlined but my question is this: Would it also work to do the secondary emphasis exercises for pure speed/explosiveness for say 8-10 sets of 2-3 reps at 40-60% instead of ramping them? So on lower body day for example performing squat and deadlift Hp mass style ramping and then performing speed bench press for 8-10 sets at 40-60%. I’m going to follow HP mass exactly as you wrote it up for at least 12 weeks because you know far more than me about training and it definitely works great but i’m thinking about experimenting with this after to see how it affects my explosiveness.
Hi, CT. I was wondering if upper body performance\lats and biceps\lower body performance still works for a three day split or if you have a different approach in this case?
[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
Hi, CT. I was wondering if upper body performance\lats and biceps\lower body performance still works for a three day split or if you have a different approach in this case?[/quote]
Everything works…
If you respect the current recommendation of adding one lower body performance exercise on the upper body day and vice versa, it is a decent split. Although I strongly doubt that someone can get maximum results training 3x a week.
[quote]nickj_777 wrote:
Hey Ct what muscles get predominately worked in a slide sled drag? Thank you[/quote]
Glutes on the pushing (back) leg and adductors on the pulling (forward) leg.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
Hi, CT. I was wondering if upper body performance\lats and biceps\lower body performance still works for a three day split or if you have a different approach in this case?[/quote]
Everything works…
If you respect the current recommendation of adding one lower body performance exercise on the upper body day and vice versa, it is a decent split. Although I strongly doubt that someone can get maximum results training 3x a week.[/quote]
I know that I won’t get max results and that suck, but because life just got more complicated and it’s going to be even harsher I can’t do more (of course on oportunities I’ll train AMTAP/week and I guess even 3x is beter than 0). Thanks a lot for the replay, coach!
I wonder if is better to add a couple of max reps circuits in the performance days (both upper and lower body) than to do them staggered between sets, when doing a spec phaze for the assistance workers?(for size of course)
By the way, I rewached the videos with daryl training one week out and I was wandering if that max rep circuit was part of the fatigue work and then the sled for eccentric-less? (if you care to explain)
Hey Thib, i was wondering what you would think about eccentric-less prowler pushing for shoulders after the upper body performance days to increase volume. Namely just explosively pushing the prowler by the poles in a semi bent over positon as far as possible for multiple reps?
Hey Thibs, i was thinking of putting prowler shoulder presses as an eccentric-less movement after upper body performance days for increased volume and strengthening! Im thinking of pushing the two vertical poles explosively from a semi bent position to involve more shoulders than chest, what do you think of this movement?
[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
Hi, CT. I was wondering if upper body performance\lats and biceps\lower body performance still works for a three day split or if you have a different approach in this case?[/quote]
Everything works…
If you respect the current recommendation of adding one lower body performance exercise on the upper body day and vice versa, it is a decent split. Although I strongly doubt that someone can get maximum results training 3x a week.[/quote]
I know that I won’t get max results and that suck, but because life just got more complicated and it’s going to be even harsher I can’t do more (of course on oportunities I’ll train AMTAP/week and I guess even 3x is beter than 0). Thanks a lot for the replay, coach!
I wonder if is better to add a couple of max reps circuits in the performance days (both upper and lower body) than to do them staggered between sets, when doing a spec phaze for the assistance workers?(for size of course)
By the way, I rewached the videos with daryl training one week out and I was wandering if that max rep circuit was part of the fatigue work and then the sled for eccentric-less? (if you care to explain)[/quote]
Max reps circuit are NEVER done staggered! Only regular assistance work is.
Daryl’s training was a bit different because he had very specific needs that needed to be addressed in a very short period of time and without having any experience in HPmass training in the past.
CT,
What is the physiological basis for the differences between performance and foundation muscles? Is it mostly the fiber makeup, or is it more than that?
B.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Max reps circuit are NEVER done staggered! Only regular assistance work is.
Daryl’s training was a bit different because he had very specific needs that needed to be addressed in a very short period of time and without having any experience in HPmass training in the past.
[/quote]
Well I actually meant if for size it’s better to do: straight staggered sets or a max rep circuit at the end? Sorry for the mistake. (The assistance work makes my back feel huge and it looks better than 6 weeks ago - when I started HP MASS without knowing many things that you unvailed to this day.)
(I was asking about Daryl’s workout because I think I might try max reps circuits - 2 or 3 - for the fatigue loading and then the volume circuit. This is mainly because on my last foundation day I think I did a little too much fatigue loading because my biceps were sore the next 2 days and my lats still are - allthough I did what you said in the lats and bi’s article.- I just can’t stand the fact that my arms - biceps especially- did not grew even one cm in the past 6 months, yet I did huge volume, I even tried a blitz and all sort fo stuffs and it didn’t work. What the heck is wrong?)
Anyway I just remembered that I once saw a graph that indicated that the biceps grows with fast tempi while the brachialis muscle develops with slower tempo. Now Charles Poliquin and maybe even you (in the past) recommended that to improve arm size quick the brachialis should be trained more. You say (and I totally agree) that the biceps (and lats) are not build for slow eccentrics (I guess no muscle develops with those naturally) so for the brachialis slow concentric are good or the whole theory is erronated?
[quote]BiP wrote:
CT,
What is the physiological basis for the differences between performance and foundation muscles? Is it mostly the fiber makeup, or is it more than that?
B.[/quote]
It comes from a long period of research and experimentation.
I first started researching the way to train each muscle many years ago after reading about phasic and tonic muscles (T-nation actually published a Pauk Chek article that talked about it… Pattern Overload - Part 2)
Right off the bat you can see that this list is fairly close to the way I recommend training each muscle group (there are some minor differences).
To give you a broad idea (go read the article for a more in depth look at the function of each muscle):
Phasic muscles (built for short burst of intense actions): Triceps, deltoids, mid traps, rhomboids, 2 of the rotator cuff muscles (supraspinatus, infraspinatus), glutes, 2 parts of the quads (vastus medialis, vastus lateralis)
Tonic muscles (built for long term sustained actions): biceps, upper trap, forearm flexors, subscalular, pectorals, hamstrings, psoas, rectus femoris, adductors, TFL
NOTE: tonic and phasic muscles do not necessarily refer to fiber make-up. For example the hamstrings are normally fast-twitch dominant, but is functionally a tonic muscle as it has a huge postural role.
NOTE: The Chek paper didn’t classify the lats
Right off the bat we can see that the muscles with a “pushing” role tend to be phasic while those with a “pulling” role tend to be tonic. Which goes right with my classification.
However we see some differences, for example the pecs are tonic muscles but I train them for performance.
My logic is that:
- I train movements, not muscles. I rarely do isolation exercises for the pectorals. I hit them mostly with the basic pushing exercises. But these pushing exercises involve the delts and triceps just as much, if not more (the bench press is triceps dominant more than chest dominant, the incline press is deltoid dominant more than chest dominant). In fact, except for dips and decline press, a pressing movement rarely has the chest as the main mover.
So in that regard, the pressing movements are more performance-oriented.
-
I see the upper traps, mid-traps, rear delts and rhomboids as one big complex. And most of the muscles in that complex are phasic (one tonic muscle) so I decided to train them on performance day too.
-
The almost 50/50 division of the lower body between phasic and tonic shows that legs are optimally trained when performance and structural work is performed. Which is my I like to use pressing movements for strength (the main lower body pressing muscles are phasic) and sled work for volume using different styles.
BUT the true realization that muscles should be trained differently came when I analyzed my physique when I was competing in bodybuilding: I came from a strength background and trained everything for strength. In competition I had great delts, triceps and quads. Decent chest, mid-back and hamstrings and sucky lats an biceps.
This led me to believe that delts, triceps and quads responded the best to heavy lifting.
That biceps and lats didn’t respond well to heavy lifting.
That hamstrings, chest and mid-back respond well to both but types of training.
Then it was pretty much experimentation… still experimenting to see which muscles respond best to which type of contraction.
Awesome Thib!
Thibs, I once did an experiment on biceps (I don’t know if it helps or if you shold even bother with it but it mattered to me in that short period): Because I just realised that biceps strength dropte form a week in wich I did no training (also happened to be the week I understood ramping) I did a ramp on bb curls and after that db hammer curls as a ratchet. The results were stunning to me because until th next week off the bi’s strength increased with about 10-20 lbs and it improved my size but for short-term concluding (to me at least) that strength training for biceps is not a good long term investment.
Overall most of the training I did for biceps was alterating form fatigue loading to strength loading and the normal bb way (straight sets with the same weight). It helped me go form 10" to 14" in 1 year and 10 months (my goal is 16" arms). After hitting (barely) the 14" marker I oscilated up and down. Now I’m preparing a spec phase (never did one for any body-part). my question on it is what to add in the extra days (other than the foundation day): fatigue work or volume stuff?
(P.s: The reason I’m asking you you is because you have more experience on that and you have bigger arms than people I’ve ever talked to.)
Wondering if I should start a thread on biceps. Maybe it’ll be usefull. Thoughts anyone?
[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
Thibs, I once did an experiment on biceps (I don’t know if it helps or if you shold even bother with it but it mattered to me in that short period): Because I just realised that biceps strength dropte form a week in wich I did no training (also happened to be the week I understood ramping) I did a ramp on bb curls and after that db hammer curls as a ratchet. The results were stunning to me because until th next week off the bi’s strength increased with about 10-20 lbs and it improved my size but for short-term concluding (to me at least) that strength training for biceps is not a good long term investment.
Overall most of the training I did for biceps was alterating form fatigue loading to strength loading and the normal bb way (straight sets with the same weight). It helped me go form 10" to 14" in 1 year and 10 months (my goal is 16" arms). After hitting (barely) the 14" marker I oscilated up and down. Now I’m preparing a spec phase (never did one for any body-part). my question on it is what to add in the extra days (other than the foundation day): fatigue work or volume stuff?
(P.s: The reason I’m asking you you is because you have more experience on that and you have bigger arms than people I’ve ever talked to.)[/quote]
Volume and fatigue are closely related but not the same thing… fatigue normally goes hand in hand with added volume (if you do more volume of the same intensity you will create more fatigue) but the reverse is not always true: you can create a lot of fatigue with minimal volume (by using advanced techniques).
I’ll tell you from my own experience, having had lagging biceps for a LONG time, that biceps respond best to FATIGUE loading with a moderate volume.
To do this I like to include a lot of constant tension work and double contractions (lift the weight all the way up, bring it back down halfway, lifting it back up… this is ONE rep).