Thibs New Training Questions #4

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
CT,

When switching to DB variations of your typical pressing exercises, would you suggest sticking to sets of 3 or going more into the 5-6 range?[/quote]

I personally don’t do dumbbell pressing exercises. I’ve used them with clients and often went up to 5 reps per set. But I prefer the barbell variations.[/quote]

any certain reason why you prefer barbells, or JUST a preference?[/quote]

MAF, this is taken from a post of CT’s in the I,Bodybuilder forum on such a subject.

  1. I personally am not a dumbbell guy, so I might be biased by not including as much DB press as barbell pressing.

  2. A guy who is remotely strong will use 120-150lbs dumbbells when performing sets of 3 reps. I find that when using such load the problem is bringing the DB into position and returning them when the set is over. I have seen a lot of injuries occur this way.

  3. On day 1, I wanted to use a partial movement that would directly activate the second and third exercise. So all three movements (or at least the first two) need to use the same training apparatus (a barbell in this case). Doing pin presses with dumbbells is kinda hard to do :slight_smile:

I would add, notice in both post’s from CT, he is sure to bold the word PERSONALLY. He brought this up in another reply that we shouldn’t always take is word as the end-all-be-all to things. If working with dumbbells works for YOU, that’s what you should be doing.

[quote]Eazy wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
CT,

When switching to DB variations of your typical pressing exercises, would you suggest sticking to sets of 3 or going more into the 5-6 range?[/quote]

I personally don’t do dumbbell pressing exercises. I’ve used them with clients and often went up to 5 reps per set. But I prefer the barbell variations.[/quote]

any certain reason why you prefer barbells, or JUST a preference?[/quote]

MAF, this is taken from a post of CT’s in the I,Bodybuilder forum on such a subject.

  1. I personally am not a dumbbell guy, so I might be biased by not including as much DB press as barbell pressing.

  2. A guy who is remotely strong will use 120-150lbs dumbbells when performing sets of 3 reps. I find that when using such load the problem is bringing the DB into position and returning them when the set is over. I have seen a lot of injuries occur this way.

  3. On day 1, I wanted to use a partial movement that would directly activate the second and third exercise. So all three movements (or at least the first two) need to use the same training apparatus (a barbell in this case). Doing pin presses with dumbbells is kinda hard to do :slight_smile:

I would add, notice in both post’s from CT, he is sure to bold the word PERSONALLY. He brought this up in another reply that we shouldn’t always take is word as the end-all-be-all to things. If working with dumbbells works for YOU, that’s what you should be doing.
[/quote]

I’m not a dumbbell guy… I could list many reasons why DBs are inferior to a bar…

But then again someone who prefers DBs can find just as many reasons why DBs are BETTER than a bar.

So in my case it really is a matter of personal preference. I hate training on DBs, except for one-arm explosive lifts. The cumbersomeness alone takes me out of the zone and reduces the quality of my own workouts. When I was young and only using 80-100lbs DBs I didn’t hate them. But now that I have to use much heavier dumbbells, setting up properly is not worth it IMHO.

Part of getting results is being motivated by your workout. And to me, DBs are so bothersome that they decrease my motivation and thus the quality of the workouts.

[quote]Liam M wrote:
Thibs i have noticed that doing military press then incline then bench or what ever i do but always starting with shoulders first i have noticed that the lift seems to be stalling but the other lifts (flat and incline) are going up. Could this be from my nervious system being activated enough?
What could i do before i start my pressing to activate?
I go to the gym pretty much straight after work so im not in the zone so to speak.[/quote]

I noticed the exact same thing. In fact, I often I have my best performance on the last pressing lift. BUT THIS ONLY WORKS IF YOU USE LOW REPS because high reps will cause fatigue which will make the later movements less proficient.

To give you an example, I did a crazy workout tuesday (have a thread about that) where I beat a floor press PR by 25lbs after having done 6 other heavy pressing exercises!!!

What do I suggest in your case? Doing one overhead activation movement before the military press. Either a push press or a top partial shoulder press from pins. In both cases go fairly heavy, but not anywhere near maximal. Enough to activate, but not enough to burn you out.

I read in a Poliquin article that, in triceps exercises, depending of the torso position (flat, inclined, declined), the mainly worked portion of the triceps will vary.
Does it happen in other muscles or is a particulary of the triceps? Do you think is important to vary the position of the exercise to work every muscle part?

Another question. I read this from you:

[quote]I recently found that the number of ideal reps to perform is dependent on the movement.

I love low reps and feel that they are the superior way to train for maximum growth and strength. But what constitutes low reps vary depending on the movement. In my opinion this depends on the length of the range of motion and the neural implication during the exercise.

For example a barbell shrug has a range of motion of roughly 2-3" and a squat about 2 feet and a half. So it would be foolish to think that 5 reps on one would have a similar training effect as on the other. For the shrug or calf raises 8-10 reps might constitute low reps whereas for squats it might be 2-5.

By the same token a neurologically demanding exercise and a less demanding one might have a different “low reps range” even if they have a similar range of motion.

For example low reps on the leg press might be 6-8 while it is 2-5 for squats.

This is something that, even though is fairly obvious, I only realized recently and have started to use in my own training… sometimes the simpler solutions are the ones you figure out last!

Here is a table showing what constitutes low reps for a movement:

Isolation exercise on a machine: 8-10
Isolation exercise with free-weights or pulley: 6-8
Compound movement on a machine: 4-6
Compound movement with free weights or pulley: 2-4
Complex exercise (e.g. power clean, power snatch and the likes): 1-3
[/quote]

In your division of muscules, you said that biceps for example, works better at moderated high repetition (6-12), referring to all exercises in general. With this new approach, what number of repetitions should we use if we want to do a high reps exercise, depending of the movement? When working arms, would you consider isolation exercises the elbows extension or the biceps curl? Generally, people divides the exercises in “primmary, secondary and auxiliar”, so I’m a bit confused on how you determinate it.

Thanks for your attention.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
CT,

When switching to DB variations of your typical pressing exercises, would you suggest sticking to sets of 3 or going more into the 5-6 range?[/quote]

I personally don’t do dumbbell pressing exercises. I’ve used them with clients and often went up to 5 reps per set. But I prefer the barbell variations.[/quote]

Thanks CT. I don’t actually prefer them either, but I try to do them once in a while as my arms are uneven length and it seems I’d be prone to imbalances

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Liam M wrote:
Thibs i have noticed that doing military press then incline then bench or what ever i do but always starting with shoulders first i have noticed that the lift seems to be stalling but the other lifts (flat and incline) are going up. Could this be from my nervious system being activated enough?
What could i do before i start my pressing to activate?
I go to the gym pretty much straight after work so im not in the zone so to speak.[/quote]

I noticed the exact same thing. In fact, I often I have my best performance on the last pressing lift. BUT THIS ONLY WORKS IF YOU USE LOW REPS because high reps will cause fatigue which will make the later movements less proficient.

To give you an example, I did a crazy workout tuesday (have a thread about that) where I beat a floor press PR by 25lbs after having done 6 other heavy pressing exercises!!!

What do I suggest in your case? Doing one overhead activation movement before the military press. Either a push press or a top partial shoulder press from pins. In both cases go fairly heavy, but not anywhere near maximal. Enough to activate, but not enough to burn you out.[/quote]
Thanks i have done another workout since then and tried doing pressing from pins (eye level) and this has worked well.
But if i do this technique as an activation too often will it become less efficient??

Hi Coach! i need some criticism with my program (exercise selection and rep /set range selection) i wrote for myself, goal is to continue building strength, and to strengthen/builid muscles around knee joint and to help myself work towards achieving the splits.
I ve choosed upper/lower/whole body split.

Lower body day -

squat- work towards heavy 5 reps
side lunge- 2x15
lying leg curl- 2x15
sit ups (weighted) 2x15
jump rope as finisher- tabata/interval style

Upper body day-
bench-work toward heavy 5 reps
brb row 3x8
dips- 4x15
chins-4x15
finisher- different each time (burpees/rowing…)

Whole body
deadlift work to 5 heavy
military press work to 5 heavy
ab rollout - from knees add weight each set till heavy 5 rm
i should add some pulling here but i dont know what it should be (mayby some heavy dmb rows?)

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
If a strength coach or personal trainer seems to have an answer to everything, run away because there is good chance that he is wrong on a lot of them!

A truly knowledgeable man knows when to admit the limits of his knowledge and doesn’t try to hide it.[/quote]

Socrates Thibaudeau

Hi Thibs.
A friend of mine is starting training for 400m and 800m running. He intends to do 3 days of weightlifting following this:
day 1- push exercises - Military press- 8x3
Flat Bench Press- 8x3
Incline Press - 8x3

Day 2 pull exercise - Pull-ups Starting 10x1 and adding 1 pull up each workout ( 10x1. week2
1x2+ 9x3, week 3 2x3 +8x1 and so on)
Bent-over row- 4x8
Seated close grip row-3x10

Day 3 legs Squat 8x3
Leg press 5x5
Calf Raise 3x 6-10

He said to me that was thinking about doing the push day and leg day doing 1week 50% Max, 2week 60% max 3week 70%max 4week 80%max,deload 1 week, se his new PR and start all over.
He is starting with 50% of max so that he can accelerate and use a lot of speed.

For the 400m and 800m run what do you think about this training?

He is doing the leg day on a day that has sprint training and no training in the day after, so that he has a full day of recovery.

Sorry about my English, anymore info about him and i´ll ask!

Cheers!

Sorry if this has been asked anywhere but I didnt see it. I am going to be starting your Get Jacked Fast program in a month or two when I try to cut some fat. Would you recommend throwing in some MAG-10 Pulse Fast days into the diet outlined in the book? If I wanted to do a pulse fast once per week would you recommend Monday’s after the cheat meal on Sunday?

Hey CT,

Just a quick shout out! I woke up a little sore, sluggish, and decided to take on “off day”. Then I read the activation training article posted in the Training Lab. I am glad I did! I applied the logic you outlined in the video and performed a neural activation circuit in the following order: snatch, push press, bench from pins, med ball slam, and jumps onto a platform. I stopped the circuits when I felt that I reached my peak and man did it snap out of my funk! I just hope I can get to sleep tonight! I thank you and T-Nation for the free info!

[quote]gymnast wrote:
Hey CT,

Just a quick shout out! I woke up a little sore, sluggish, and decided to take on “off day”. Then I read the activation training article posted in the Training Lab. I am glad I did! I applied the logic you outlined in the video and performed a neural activation circuit in the following order: snatch, push press, bench from pins, med ball slam, and jumps onto a platform. I stopped the circuits when I felt that I reached my peak and man did it snap out of my funk! I just hope I can get to sleep tonight! I thank you and T-Nation for the free info![/quote]

Glad you found out how effective neural charge workouts can be. When properly used they can truly send your progress through the roof and make gains more systematic (less plateaus)

Hey CT the new program I’m thinking about setting up will utilize the consecutive day bodypart overloads you used with daryl, but along the template you laid out here

I’ll try my best to explain our approach. It’s kinda hard to do so because it is not a static system.

[quote]
Basically we have 4 types of workouts:

TYPE 1: “regular” heavy lifting sessions… These are generally built on training a general movement pattern rather than a muscle group per say. For example we might work “pushing” movements. Such a workout would involve 4 (most of the time) major pushing exercises, going from the “weakest” to the “strongest” in extended ramping fashion.

This means that we start with the first exercise with roughly 60% of maximum and ramp up the weight until we reach the maximum that can be done in good form for the selected number of reps, then we mesh into the second exercise and we continue ramping in the same manner. It would look something like this…

EXERCISE 1 - Military press
Set 1. 135lbs x 5
Set 2. 155lbs x 5
Set 3. 175lbs x 5
Set 4. 195lbs x 5
Set 5. 205lbs x 5 (most that can be done solidly and in good form)

Switch to…

EXERCISE 2 - Incline bench press
Set 1. 205lbs x 5 (start where you ended the preceding one)
Set 2. 225lbs x 5
Set 3. 245lbs x 5
Set 4. 265lbs x 5
Set 5. 285lbs x 5 (most that can be done solidly and in good form)

Switch to …

EXERCISE 3 - Bench press
Set 1. 285lbs x 5
Set 2. 305lbs x 5
Set 3. 325lbs x 5
Set 4. 345lbs x 5
Set 5. 365lbs x 5 (most that can be done solidly and in good form)

Switch to …

EXERCISE 4 - Top half bench press from pins (starting at mid range)
Set 1. 365lbs x 5
Set 2. 385lbs x 5
Set 3. 405lbs x 5 (most that can de done solidly)

NOTES:

  • The number of set per exercise is not predetermined; you ramp up until you hit the most weight you can lift solidly on the lift… on some days you might get 10 sets on one movement and on another day only 3… it’s all about taking what your body can give you on that day.

  • On all the sets you should strive to accelerate the weight as much as you can on the concentric. Force = mass x acceleration… you can compensate (to a point) a lack of mass by using more acceleration when it comes to building strength. So even the lighter sets do have a training effect.

  • We also use a second form of “strength” training… we select 3 basic exercises for the same movement pattern and do them as a “circuit” but with a minute of rest between them.

Good pairings for the first type of strength sessions include:

PRESSING 1: Military press, incline bench press, flat bench press, decline bench press
PRESSING 2: Push press, Incline bench press, flat bench press, top half bench pin press
PRESSING 3: Top half shoulder pin press, top half incline pin press, top half bench press
PRESSING 4: Seated DB shoulder press, incline DB shoulder press, flat DB press, decline DB press
PRESSING 5: Military press, push press, top half shoulder pin press, flat bench press

HIPS SPECIFIC 1: Romanian deadlift, Sumo deadlift*, conventional deadlift, pin pull just above knees
â?¢ if your sumo is stronger than your conventional, to the conventional first

HIP SPECIFIC 2: High pull, power clean, Romanian deadlift, conventional deadlift
HIP SPECIFIC 3: Power snatch, power clean, Romanian deadlift, Sumo deadlift
HIP SPECIFIC 4: Snatch-grip deadlift, Sumo deadlift*, conventional deadlift, pin pull above the knees

QUADS SPECIFIC 1: Front squat, close-stance back squat, wide-stance back squat, top-half pin squat
QUADS SPECIFIC 2: Short steps lunges, medium steps lunges, DB squat
QUADS SPECIFIC 3: Bulgarian split squats, split squats, medium steps lunges

BICEPS 1: Spider curl (90 degrees preacher curl), 45 degrees preacher curl, standing barbell curl
BICEPS 2: DB reverse curl, DB curl, DB hammer curl
BICEPS 3: Reverse grip preacher curl, wide-grip preacher curl, close-grip preacher curl

BACK 1: barbell row torso parallel to the floor, barbell row torso 45 degrees, barbell row slight lower body drive

BACK 2: Pronated chin-up*, suppinated chin-up, parallel grip chin-up
â?¢ if you are stronger pronated, start with suppinated

BACK 3: Chest-supported DB row elbows out, chest-supported DB row elbows close and suppinated grip, chest-supported DB row elbows close and neutral grip [quote]

Since this probably makes no sense right now, let me explain

For Instance I would do all the pressing series on consecutive days with a max reps circuit at the end of each workout. I would do one workout for the other 4 bodypart complexes. Then I would start the hips specific phase in the same fashion, and then do one workout for the other 4 movement patterns. My biggest concern is that i’m not advanced enough to handle it so some general numbers Bench: 320-330, Squat :410, Deadlift: 465

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]gymnast wrote:
Hey CT,

Just a quick shout out! I woke up a little sore, sluggish, and decided to take on “off day”. Then I read the activation training article posted in the Training Lab. I am glad I did! I applied the logic you outlined in the video and performed a neural activation circuit in the following order: snatch, push press, bench from pins, med ball slam, and jumps onto a platform. I stopped the circuits when I felt that I reached my peak and man did it snap out of my funk! I just hope I can get to sleep tonight! I thank you and T-Nation for the free info![/quote]

Glad you found out how effective neural charge workouts can be. When properly used they can truly send your progress through the roof and make gains more systematic (less plateaus)[/quote]

The neural charge w/o definitely has a spot in my training toolbox. I woke up today feeling great, a little less sore, and had a healthy appetite.
I like how you explain things in terms of managing the fatigue of our CNS, since it is the bus driver so to speak. I have your book “High Threshold Muscle Building” and see the principles from the book applied to the video demonstrations. Will you be having any conferences in 2011? Thanks again and I will post progress pics soon. I am a relative newbie to weights, but have years of gymnastic training under my belt. My body is adapting to the new training stimulus in a good way!

Hey there coach. Haven’t been up to your latest advices so please excuse me if the answers to my questions are already answered by you.

I was thinking on an ab workout that I could do at home and how should I sctructure it. If you can help me it would mean a lot to me.
anyway the point of the post is that I want to start kickboxing classes from sping (I had to promise that I start only from spring for that matter) and I want to improve my core (a little) and lower body flexibility(and that means a lot of stratching and split attempts). My workots are still based on what you preach, but I was wandering what exercises/exercise variations would help in my case? If I’m not wrong you once said that stretching can lower muscle mass gains? What else can you recommend?

Also if anyone besides CT has any knowlege on the record please give me an advice.

EDIT: I also started noticing a lot of details coming up on my upper back region, so does that mean that I’m losing fat or it’s just from training the rhombs more?
If I’m losing fat why can’t I see any Improvements on my abdominal area?

[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
Hey there coach. Haven’t been up to your latest advices so please excuse me if the answers to my questions are already answered by you.

I was thinking on an ab workout that I could do at home and how should I sctructure it. If you can help me it would mean a lot to me.
anyway the point of the post is that I want to start kickboxing classes from sping (I had to promise that I start only from spring for that matter) and I want to improve my core (a little) and lower body flexibility(and that means a lot of stratching and split attempts). My workots are still based on what you preach, but I was wandering what exercises/exercise variations would help in my case? If I’m not wrong you once said that stretching can lower muscle mass gains? What else can you recommend?

Also if anyone besides CT has any knowlege on the record please give me an advice.

EDIT: I also started noticing a lot of details coming up on my upper back region, so does that mean that I’m losing fat or it’s just from training the rhombs more?
If I’m losing fat why can’t I see any Improvements on my abdominal area?[/quote]

The body doesn’t lose fat everywhere at the same time. For example, women tend to lean up in their upper body at a much faster rate than their lower body.

Men, for the most part tend to get lean in their limbs, then torso and finally trunk region.

As for abdominal work. I would never devise a home routine unless you have the possibility to do weighted abs work (cable station, dumbbells, etc.). Unweighted abdominal work by itself is largely a waste.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Gaby 2700 wrote:
Hey there coach. Haven’t been up to your latest advices so please excuse me if the answers to my questions are already answered by you.

I was thinking on an ab workout that I could do at home and how should I sctructure it. If you can help me it would mean a lot to me.
anyway the point of the post is that I want to start kickboxing classes from sping (I had to promise that I start only from spring for that matter) and I want to improve my core (a little) and lower body flexibility(and that means a lot of stratching and split attempts). My workots are still based on what you preach, but I was wandering what exercises/exercise variations would help in my case? If I’m not wrong you once said that stretching can lower muscle mass gains? What else can you recommend?

Also if anyone besides CT has any knowlege on the record please give me an advice.

EDIT: I also started noticing a lot of details coming up on my upper back region, so does that mean that I’m losing fat or it’s just from training the rhombs more?
If I’m losing fat why can’t I see any Improvements on my abdominal area?[/quote]

The body doesn’t lose fat everywhere at the same time. For example, women tend to lean up in their upper body at a much faster rate than their lower body.

Men, for the most part tend to get lean in their limbs, then torso and finally trunk region.

As for abdominal work. I would never devise a home routine unless you have the possibility to do weighted abs work (cable station, dumbbells, etc.). Unweighted abdominal work by itself is largely a waste.[/quote]

By at home I mean no ab bands and things to do hanging stuff.
What bout the leg flexibility Thibs? What do you know about it?

Happy Bday. Have a good one.

Happy Birthday from me as well!

I checked the Thibster’s Facebook page and it is indeed the coach’s birthday today. I even learned some French from all of the well-wishers:

Bonne fete!

That and “frommage” constitute the bulk of my knowledge of the French language. Sorry.