Theory and Real Life

Training Bodybuilding
1

I read everywhere that to gain size, you need to rest no more than 90 seconds between sets. Even in University text books. It makes sence. You want to cause micro-trauma to your muscles. So you want to start the next set before you recuperate from the previous one.

But when I ask the really huge guys, they tell me that they just lift very heavy weights, high volume and they need to rest 2-4 minutes, in order to lift heavy the next set.

I read that I have to hit every muscle group at least 1.5 times per week, preferably more. Chad’s WHFS hits 3-4 times per week each muscle.

But then I see my friend, who is in another town. He is one of the strongest (very big as well) guys in my country (Greece). His 1RM at Bench Press is 240 Kgrs. People don’t believe that he almost never took creatine. He rarely takes some protein powder. But he does eat a lot. His routine? He hits each muscle group with very heavy weights once every 14 days. And in between he has a lighter wo (like 10 rep sets), to accelerate recovery. Now he may be gifted. But he taught his system to other people in his gym and they all made extremely good progress.

And I am reading book and articles, that try to prove that my friend’s system is wrong. I am trying to be on the cutting edge. So I follow the advice I read and I have minimal gains, or some times I go backwards.

Maybe the others that follow these articles have much better gains? Like 1RM BP much more than 240 kgrs?

My sleeping patterns are not perfect, I live in real life. But so do the other guys that my friend trains. I eat very very healthy.

Maybe you can help me understand what is happening?

Bob
www.mazema.com/gym

2

[quote]BobPit wrote:
I read everywhere that to gain size, you need to rest no more than 90 seconds between sets. Even in University text books. It makes sence. You want to cause micro-trauma to your muscles. So you want to start the next set before you recuperate from the previous one.

But when I ask the really huge guys, they tell me that they just lift very heavy weights, high volume and they need to rest 2-4 minutes, in order to lift heavy the next set.

I read that I have to hit every muscle group at least 1.5 times per week, preferably more. Chad’s WHFS hits 3-4 times per week each muscle.

But then I see my friend, who is in another town. He is one of the strongest (very big as well) guys in my country (Greece). His 1RM at Bench Press is 240 Kgrs. People don’t believe that he almost never took creatine. He rarely takes some protein powder. But he does eat a lot. His routine? He hits each muscle group with very heavy weights once every 14 days. And in between he has a lighter wo (like 10 rep sets), to accelerate recovery. Now he may be gifted. But he taught his system to other people in his gym and they all made extremely good progress.

And I am reading book and articles, that try to prove that my friend’s system is wrong. I am trying to be on the cutting edge. So I follow the advice I read and I have minimal gains, or some times I go backwards.

Maybe the others that follow these articles have much better gains? Like 1RM BP much more than 240 kgrs?

My sleeping patterns are not perfect, I live in real life. But so do the other guys that my friend trains. I eat very very healthy.

Maybe you can help me understand what is happening?

Bob
www.mazema.com/gym

[/quote]

It sounds like a modified HIT. Have the people your friend trains ever hit a pleateau? HIT typically elicits strong gains until you hit a plateau.

3

are you sure his ‘system’ doesn’t involve the use of AAS? people who train so infrequently yet are totally jacked are ON THE JUICE.

his use of exercise as a tool for recovery is a good idea, though. you stated that he does light days <around 10 reps, you said> to improve recovery. this is smart.

4

My friend’s 1RM at BP was around 160kgrs. Then he took 2 years off from his work, they sent him to do his MA. So he was studying, exercising, eating and sleeping most of the day. So recovery was a big part of his success. His 1RM went up to 240kgrs, after 2 years of not working. When he went back to work, his performance decreased.

But the good performance of his “students” show that his method gives good results.

My friend rarely takes creatine. He takes some concentrated milk protein powder, which is not even whey. He take Tribulus in the form of raw plant (he boils it). And I trust him that he is not “juiced”. Actually he looks very fat, he is not concerned about aesthetics. He is 1,85m tall and weights 115 kgrs.

He did mention 2 occasions of his students getting drugs. I do not have much information on it.

But then again. I have the examples of the huge people at my gym. As I stated above, they train more infrequently, use bigger intervals.

5

You cannot prove something does not work, and also, some things work for some people and not others.

You cannot assume that anyone big got that way doing what they are CURRENTLY doing. It is not necessarily what you see them doing now that got them there.

You also cannot assume that what they did was the most optimal, fastest way to get where they are. Most everything works - eventually.

Finally steroids + other drugs throw all kinds of spanners in the works.

Basically what matters is do something and if it don’t work, do something else.

Don’t try and prove something and don’t try to perfect anything.

Furthermore anything you do that works well will STOP working well after a short while.

6

Chill out with the creatine and protein powders first off. Sure they are good tolls to use but just because someone did it without them doesnt make then insane or something.

Your friend is gifted and has found what works for him, congrats. Try him program out for 12 - 16 weeks and see how it works FOR YOU. If it bombs you may need to try something else.

7

These things happen. I would say that anything would work for him. The others may just be benefiting from actually following a program with decent loads - consistently. Which incidently… works fairly well for me too.

8

These things happen. I would say that anything would work for him. The others may just be benefiting from actually following a program with decent loads - consistently. Which incidently… works fairly well for me too.

9

I haven’t been here long, but this is what I’ve learned from reading lots of messages, as well as from observing people I’ve known…

Everyone is different. There are people who eact junk & don’t exericse seriously who are jacked, and others who seem to be doing everything right bet get only modest results.

The reason you see conficting advice here (even among expert authors) is that different things work for dfferent people. Whenever someone says “Do it like this…” they are describing what worked for them or their clients. It may or may not work for you.

Look for messages and articles that address your body type and your goals. Try what they say for a month. If you get no results, try something else. If you do get results, try something else after a month anyway, but keep your notes of what works for you or not, so you can return to routines that work for you in the future.

Don’t get frustrated because someone else seems to get better results than you with less effort. They may be genitically gifted or secretly on the juice.

And at the risk of getting flamed… Listen to your body and don’t overdo it. What good is looking good if you have injuries that prevent you from being active?

10

This is why I really liked Cosgrove’s new article. The old saying goes: “a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument”.

It’s no more complicated than, or depending on how you look at it, maybe as complicated as, different things working for different people. Different things may also work for the same people under different circumstances or at different times in their lives.

Nothing works as well for everybody, just about everything works well for somebody and most things work for most people at least some of the time.

Welcome aboard the good ship WTF am I supposed to believe. Only a well developed self intuition based on honest and informed experience will keep you from prozac and padded cells in this game.

11

[quote]BobPit wrote:
I read everywhere that to gain size, you need to rest no more than 90 seconds between sets. Even in University text books. It makes sence. You want to cause micro-trauma to your muscles. So you want to start the next set before you recuperate from the previous one.

But when I ask the really huge guys, they tell me that they just lift very heavy weights, high volume and they need to rest 2-4 minutes, in order to lift heavy the next set.

I read that I have to hit every muscle group at least 1.5 times per week, preferably more. Chad’s WHFS hits 3-4 times per week each muscle.

But then I see my friend, who is in another town. He is one of the strongest (very big as well) guys in my country (Greece). His 1RM at Bench Press is 240 Kgrs. People don’t believe that he almost never took creatine. He rarely takes some protein powder. But he does eat a lot. His routine? He hits each muscle group with very heavy weights once every 14 days. And in between he has a lighter wo (like 10 rep sets), to accelerate recovery. Now he may be gifted. But he taught his system to other people in his gym and they all made extremely good progress.

And I am reading book and articles, that try to prove that my friend’s system is wrong. I am trying to be on the cutting edge. So I follow the advice I read and I have minimal gains, or some times I go backwards.

Maybe the others that follow these articles have much better gains? Like 1RM BP much more than 240 kgrs?

My sleeping patterns are not perfect, I live in real life. But so do the other guys that my friend trains. I eat very very healthy.

Maybe you can help me understand what is happening?

Bob
www.mazema.com/gym[/quote]

Something that strikes me is that you focus a lot on details which differ but very little on aspects that fit in with common recommendations and theories. Lets see…

Lift progressively heavy weights… check
Adequate volume… check
Adequate rest and recovery… check
Variation… check (light and heavy days)

Add in the right exercise selections and lots of food, maybe even some sort of periodization, and the whole thing doesn’t look so bad.

With regard to frequency: I believe meaningful recommendations on the issue can only be made taking into account factors like the volume and intensity of a given workout for the muscle group in question. Things like training to failure, “intensity techniques” and high volume will all necessitate longer intervals before that specific muscle group can be trained again productively. The more neurally efficient you become, the more taxing lifts like the deadlift become and the less frequently it is advisable to perform them.

On a similar note, there is more than one way to overload a muscle and the rest period between sets is only one of many factors.

While I definitely agree that the routine doesn’t seem to be optimal, all this goes to show that drive and persistency are more important than finding an optimal as opposed to a decent plan. I guess this fits in nicely with the recent debate regarding “learning form the big guys”, even if the way they train and eat goes against the grain of some of the opinions and theories presented on this and other reputable sites…

12

Thank you guys.

I guess I should be triple sceptic when I read articles.

I followed a fullbody wo for a year. Despite the hype, I gained some strength but minimal size. So I guess this does not work for me.

I tried Chad’s WHFS (High frequency) for a month. Maybe it is my lifestyle, but it was not for me.

Then again it could be the protein I took.

I found interesting the concepts of HSS-100 and Chad’s “100 reps to bigger muscles”. So now I am doing a split routine and I apply “100 reps” to my biceps-triceps. Although it is less than a week, I have a feeling it is going to work.

13

I doubt it was the protein you took as long as you were getting adaquate protein for your size. Try a plan and be consistant. I have problems everytime I read a new article. I see someone saying something about nutrition or training that contradicts what I’ve read and what I currently do. I resist the urge to change nowadays.

14

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
are you sure his ‘system’ doesn’t involve the use of AAS? people who train so infrequently yet are totally jacked are ON THE JUICE.

his use of exercise as a tool for recovery is a good idea, though. you stated that he does light days <around 10 reps, you said> to improve recovery. this is smart.[/quote]

WTF? How many people you know go on a cycle and then lift once every 14 days per bodypart?

15

[quote]michael2507 wrote:

Something that strikes me is that you focus a lot on details which differ but very little on aspects that fit in with common recommendations and theories. Lets see…

Lift progressively heavy weights… check
Adequate volume… check
Adequate rest and recovery… check
Variation… check (light and heavy days)

Add in the right exercise selections and lots of food, maybe even some sort of periodization, and the whole thing doesn’t look so bad.[/quote]

agreed.

this i disagree with. one of the physical changes that occurs over time through training is conditioning. the well conditioned athlete is able to perform similar exercises more frequently and with shorter rest intervals than his/her less conditioned counterpart.

so in short, i completely disagree that experienced trainees need more recuperation time after a given workout.

however, if you’re trying to imply that experienced trainees can tap into their true strength better than their lesser-trained counterparts, and therefore are able to perform exercises with such intensity that they require more recuperation from a particularly brutal workout, i can see this occuring.

[quote]On a similar note, there is more than one way to overload a muscle and the rest period between sets is only one of many factors.

While I definitely agree that the routine doesn’t seem to be optimal, all this goes to show that drive and persistency are more important than finding an optimal as opposed to a decent plan. I guess this fits in nicely with the recent debate regarding “learning form the big guys”, even if the way they train and eat goes against the grain of some of the opinions and theories presented on this and other reputable sites…[/quote]

well said. consistency is always the most important factor.

16

[quote]hueyOT wrote:

however, if you’re trying to imply that experienced trainees can tap into their true strength better than their lesser-trained counterparts, and therefore are able to perform exercises with such intensity that they require more recuperation from a particularly brutal workout, i can see this occuring.
[/quote]
Yes, that is the point I was trying to make.