The Westside Method Thread

Training Powerlifting
841

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
STB, you said: “If you squat raw, box squating will not help your squat. No matter how you sit on it. It’s good for variation when you need a change but shouldnt be a staple movement for developing your raw squat. Because it wont.”

But I’m fairly sure you’ve also said that you should use a box even if raw in this thread.

This is kinda confusing. Can you shed some light on this?[/quote]

Man, I used to be some kind of asshole. What the hell thread was that even in?

I must have said that when I was still doing everything all wrong.
[/quote]

When did you figure out you were doing everything wrong, and, more importantly, how did you find out what was right?

842

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
STB, you said: “If you squat raw, box squating will not help your squat. No matter how you sit on it. It’s good for variation when you need a change but shouldnt be a staple movement for developing your raw squat. Because it wont.”

But I’m fairly sure you’ve also said that you should use a box even if raw in this thread.

This is kinda confusing. Can you shed some light on this?[/quote]

Man, I used to be some kind of asshole. What the hell thread was that even in?

Anyway, yes you need to raw squat more on ME day if you are competing raw. And by more I mean, 1 or 2 ME workouts before you compete and for the entire Transformation Block. The remaining 90% of training or so, should be to a box. It does matter how you sit on it. I must have said that when I was still doing everything all wrong.

Box Squats allow you to:

Hit depth everytime
Use the right mechanics
More efficiently develop things like reactive and explosive strength
Improve flexability
and a million other things.

This doesnt mean you can’t squat for assistance work. I do this often when I have a raw meet coming up. Pause squats, front squats, using different bars, using different foot positions, concentric only squats, etc. all make great squat assistance work while still using box squats for ME work.[/quote]
Heh, I assumed you changed your mind.

I’m a bit sceptical on 90% of the time though (I know, why ask and not use the advice?) but I see your point.

How would you sit on it though? Pushing hips back a lot or more like you free squat raw? This is an issue also. Jim Wendler says to squat on it like you do with a raw squat but others say to push back more even if raw. I know training isn’t a 1 method thing but, yes. Seen Stan Efferding also just do them but he doesn’t even sit much on them and also does them like he free squats.

Thanks.

843

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
This doesnt mean you can’t squat for assistance work. I do this often when I have a raw meet coming up. Pause squats, front squats, using different bars, using different foot positions, concentric only squats, etc. all make great squat assistance work while still using box squats for ME work.[/quote]
Heh, I assumed you changed your mind.

I’m a bit sceptical on 90% of the time though (I know, why ask and not use the advice?) but I see your point.

How would you sit on it though? Pushing hips back a lot or more like you free squat raw? This is an issue also. Jim Wendler says to squat on it like you do with a raw squat but others say to push back more even if raw. I know training isn’t a 1 method thing but, yes. Seen Stan Efferding also just do them but he doesn’t even sit much on them and also does them like he free squats.

Thanks.[/quote]

A box squat is a box squat you want to squat wider than you would with your box squats because it make the squats hard leading to a stronger squat and marking a competition squat easier/making you stronger

844

I hope I won’t sound like an absolute fucking idiot discussing this, but I’ve watched this video (among others) many times. EDIT: in the vid Loui’s commentary starts at 3:46

It has Louie talking about what I am guessing is a variation of the RE method or something. The guys are doing many sets of low reps (like DE work), but with heavier weight.

Now on Prilepin’s table from the Westside book of methods, under the 80-85% of max it has a recommendation of 2-4 reps per set, with optimal overall reps of 15, and overall rep range of 10-20. And that chart got me wondering. Now because I am a newb please correct me but are they doing this kind of ‘Repeated efforts’ in place of normal DE work by going heavier in weight and lower in overall rep volume? Or is this part of some special advanced wave before a meet or something? Sorry if I sound absolutely clueless I am trying to learn as much as possible.

Do you know of this method/have you used this in your training? Could someone use this in place of a normal DE workout (maybe in the intensification phase?)

Thanks for all the advice on this thread and yes I know I am rambling.

845

Looks like an example of a DE day (beginning) and more towards a ME day (end). Remember ME work takes some weight to work up to. Chances are they’re just working up to a heavy double or triple.

846

Repeated Efforts is really when you just do reps on your ME day(3-5). Technically ME day accor. to Lou is just working up to a 1RM but not for reps but it is somehow the same.

847

the debate about box squat/free-squat carry over always confused me . hypothetical example…Lifter starts with a 5RM box squat of 225 ; 1 year later his 5RM box squat has climbed to 315 . obviously his hamstrings , glutes , lower back , and hips got stronger…so how could it even be possible to NOT have a positive carry over to his free-squat ?

848

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
the debate about box squat/free-squat carry over always confused me . hypothetical example…Lifter starts with a 5RM box squat of 225 ; 1 year later his 5RM box squat has climbed to 315 . obviously his hamstrings , glutes , lower back , and hips got stronger…so how could it even be possible to NOT have a positive carry over to his free-squat ?[/quote]

I think you’re kind of missing the point. You could say the same thing about a deadlift as a squat variation if you wanted to - that anything that makes those muscle groups stronger is going to make your 1RM squat climb. You could potentially say it about a 5RM GHR, or a 5RM leg press. But the point of the ME squat day is to strain through a movement which replicates your competition squat in some respect, and PB on it in every phase. Box squats for a raw lifter don’t replicate what you do in your competition style in any way, and they are in fact a completely different kind of movement.

You can be reductionist about the discussion all you want, and maybe it does replicate your competition style if you happen to sit back ridiculously far without falling backwards even when raw, but the fact is it’s not a true ME variation for a raw competitor.

849

[quote]RTJenforcer wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
the debate about box squat/free-squat carry over always confused me . hypothetical example…Lifter starts with a 5RM box squat of 225 ; 1 year later his 5RM box squat has climbed to 315 . obviously his hamstrings , glutes , lower back , and hips got stronger…so how could it even be possible to NOT have a positive carry over to his free-squat ?[/quote]

I think you’re kind of missing the point. You could say the same thing about a deadlift as a squat variation if you wanted to - that anything that makes those muscle groups stronger is going to make your 1RM squat climb. You could potentially say it about a 5RM GHR, or a 5RM leg press. But the point of the ME squat day is to strain through a movement which replicates your competition squat in some respect, and PB on it in every phase. Box squats for a raw lifter don’t replicate what you do in your competition style in any way, and they are in fact a completely different kind of movement.

You can be reductionist about the discussion all you want, and maybe it does replicate your competition style if you happen to sit back ridiculously far without falling backwards even when raw, but the fact is it’s not a true ME variation for a raw competitor.[/quote]

but I’ve never seen a discussion regarding DL / free-squat carry-over ; or GHR , or leg press carry-over…only box / free squat . I would assume the reason for that is that a box squat is far closer to a free squat than the other examples .

so let me ask yet another question…to test the theory , if I run nothing but box-squats , DL variations , and GM’s as ME Lower for an entire Accumulation/Intensification/Transformatin format…and then max-out as in a meet…would that be an accurate test ?

850

[quote]RTJenforcer wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
the debate about box squat/free-squat carry over always confused me . hypothetical example…Lifter starts with a 5RM box squat of 225 ; 1 year later his 5RM box squat has climbed to 315 . obviously his hamstrings , glutes , lower back , and hips got stronger…so how could it even be possible to NOT have a positive carry over to his free-squat ?[/quote]

I think you’re kind of missing the point. You could say the same thing about a deadlift as a squat variation if you wanted to - that anything that makes those muscle groups stronger is going to make your 1RM squat climb. You could potentially say it about a 5RM GHR, or a 5RM leg press. But the point of the ME squat day is to strain through a movement which replicates your competition squat in some respect, and PB on it in every phase. Box squats for a raw lifter don’t replicate what you do in your competition style in any way, and they are in fact a completely different kind of movement.

You can be reductionist about the discussion all you want, and maybe it does replicate your competition style if you happen to sit back ridiculously far without falling backwards even when raw, but the fact is it’s not a true ME variation for a raw competitor.[/quote]

are you saying that the whole carry-over discussion is pointless ?

not trying to pin ya down or anything…you may be right though , that I must be missing the point

851

Any theoretical discussion on the internet about anything is as productive as trying to shit striaght up in the air. Do it all you want, there is still going to be shit all over the place.

Anyway, box squats for a raw squatter:

Yes. They make your raw squat go up. I don’t need to read anything about it to know this because I have seen it work on regular people, team sport athletes, and powerlifters alike in real life, practical application. Do things need to be tweaked for a predominantly raw squatter? Absolutely. A couple of guidelines to follow about the set-up, box height, and programming:

Always train with a wider foot position than a normal, raw squat. This will develop mobility as well as strengthen all of the correct squatting muscle. Also, this teaches a very very important aspect of squatting. Hip abduction. Spreading the floor, driving your knees out, and leading with your hips for the entire movement is a skill that every raw squatter could benefit from developing. Watch the best squatters on earth. It looks more like a hard hip abduction than a hip extension. Box’s allow the lifter to practice this by over exaggerating the hip action during the eccentric (in other words, sitting back more and abducting harder).

Raw squatters should never use a high box IMO. All it does is boost the ego, limit mobility, and wastes energy. Parallel or lower should ALWAYS be used.

Early in training, always use a box. Geared or raw doesn’t really matter. What does matter is recovering from the previous competition, developing weaknesses, and increasing GPP. Here is a very general layout of how I would suggest a raw squatter would use a box in training:

Accumulation:
Always squat to a box for ME and DE work. Also, for any squat assistancve work.

Intensification:
Always use a box for DE work. Take the box away for your last 1 or 2 ME squat sessions. Don’t use it for any of your squat assistance work.

Transformation:
No Box for anything.

I hope this helped clear some stuff up. Let me know if there are more specific questions.

852

STB how do you like to work up to your one rep max? Do you try to get a certain # of lifts over 90% or do you focus just soley on setting a new record.

853

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]RTJenforcer wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
the debate about box squat/free-squat carry over always confused me . hypothetical example…Lifter starts with a 5RM box squat of 225 ; 1 year later his 5RM box squat has climbed to 315 . obviously his hamstrings , glutes , lower back , and hips got stronger…so how could it even be possible to NOT have a positive carry over to his free-squat ?[/quote]

I think you’re kind of missing the point. You could say the same thing about a deadlift as a squat variation if you wanted to - that anything that makes those muscle groups stronger is going to make your 1RM squat climb. You could potentially say it about a 5RM GHR, or a 5RM leg press. But the point of the ME squat day is to strain through a movement which replicates your competition squat in some respect, and PB on it in every phase. Box squats for a raw lifter don’t replicate what you do in your competition style in any way, and they are in fact a completely different kind of movement.

You can be reductionist about the discussion all you want, and maybe it does replicate your competition style if you happen to sit back ridiculously far without falling backwards even when raw, but the fact is it’s not a true ME variation for a raw competitor.[/quote]

but I’ve never seen a discussion regarding DL / free-squat carry-over ; or GHR , or leg press carry-over…only box / free squat . I would assume the reason for that is that a box squat is far closer to a free squat than the other examples .

so let me ask yet another question…to test the theory , if I run nothing but box-squats , DL variations , and GM’s as ME Lower for an entire Accumulation/Intensification/Transformatin format…and then max-out as in a meet…would that be an accurate test ?[/quote]

My point was that unless you’re lifting in a squat suit and/or knee wraps, the box squat isn’t really close to a free squat at all.

Yeah I suppose, but there’s no control test so you won’t ever know what your potential numbers for that meet would have been if you had picked another variation (manta ray squats/high bar for example).

854

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]RTJenforcer wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
the debate about box squat/free-squat carry over always confused me . hypothetical example…Lifter starts with a 5RM box squat of 225 ; 1 year later his 5RM box squat has climbed to 315 . obviously his hamstrings , glutes , lower back , and hips got stronger…so how could it even be possible to NOT have a positive carry over to his free-squat ?[/quote]

I think you’re kind of missing the point. You could say the same thing about a deadlift as a squat variation if you wanted to - that anything that makes those muscle groups stronger is going to make your 1RM squat climb. You could potentially say it about a 5RM GHR, or a 5RM leg press. But the point of the ME squat day is to strain through a movement which replicates your competition squat in some respect, and PB on it in every phase. Box squats for a raw lifter don’t replicate what you do in your competition style in any way, and they are in fact a completely different kind of movement.

You can be reductionist about the discussion all you want, and maybe it does replicate your competition style if you happen to sit back ridiculously far without falling backwards even when raw, but the fact is it’s not a true ME variation for a raw competitor.[/quote]

are you saying that the whole carry-over discussion is pointless ?

not trying to pin ya down or anything…you may be right though , that I must be missing the point[/quote]

Not at all, but the point is that a box squat doesn’t replicate your free raw squat adequately - which is what your choice of ME variation should do.

The carryover discussion is relevant, but if you feel you get great carryover from doing 5RMs on box squats or whatever, why not program it as assistance?

855

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Any theoretical discussion on the internet about anything is as productive as trying to shit striaght up in the air. Do it all you want, there is still going to be shit all over the place.

Anyway, box squats for a raw squatter:

Yes. They make your raw squat go up. I don’t need to read anything about it to know this because I have seen it work on regular people, team sport athletes, and powerlifters alike in real life, practical application. Do things need to be tweaked for a predominantly raw squatter? Absolutely. A couple of guidelines to follow about the set-up, box height, and programming:

Always train with a wider foot position than a normal, raw squat. This will develop mobility as well as strengthen all of the correct squatting muscle. Also, this teaches a very very important aspect of squatting. Hip abduction. Spreading the floor, driving your knees out, and leading with your hips for the entire movement is a skill that every raw squatter could benefit from developing. Watch the best squatters on earth. It looks more like a hard hip abduction than a hip extension. Box’s allow the lifter to practice this by over exaggerating the hip action during the eccentric (in other words, sitting back more and abducting harder).

Raw squatters should never use a high box IMO. All it does is boost the ego, limit mobility, and wastes energy. Parallel or lower should ALWAYS be used.

Early in training, always use a box. Geared or raw doesn’t really matter. What does matter is recovering from the previous competition, developing weaknesses, and increasing GPP. Here is a very general layout of how I would suggest a raw squatter would use a box in training:

Accumulation:
Always squat to a box for ME and DE work. Also, for any squat assistancve work.

Intensification:
Always use a box for DE work. Take the box away for your last 1 or 2 ME squat sessions. Don’t use it for any of your squat assistance work.

Transformation:
No Box for anything.

I hope this helped clear some stuff up. Let me know if there are more specific questions.[/quote]
Thanks for this post, clears up alot. Great post.

856

Good post STB.

Just curious about how to incorporate squat assistance. You said earlier if you were doing raw you’d do more like pause squats etc. for assistance.

Would you do these for 6RMs after the ME lift?

For example, if you did an ME deadlift then you do some pause squats. Or if you did an ME squat then you’d do some RDLs for 6RMs?

If so, that sounds like a good plan and also a good way to still get in free squat practice.

857

[quote]RTJenforcer wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

[quote]RTJenforcer wrote:

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
the debate about box squat/free-squat carry over always confused me . hypothetical example…Lifter starts with a 5RM box squat of 225 ; 1 year later his 5RM box squat has climbed to 315 . obviously his hamstrings , glutes , lower back , and hips got stronger…so how could it even be possible to NOT have a positive carry over to his free-squat ?[/quote]

I think you’re kind of missing the point. You could say the same thing about a deadlift as a squat variation if you wanted to - that anything that makes those muscle groups stronger is going to make your 1RM squat climb. You could potentially say it about a 5RM GHR, or a 5RM leg press. But the point of the ME squat day is to strain through a movement which replicates your competition squat in some respect, and PB on it in every phase. Box squats for a raw lifter don’t replicate what you do in your competition style in any way, and they are in fact a completely different kind of movement.

You can be reductionist about the discussion all you want, and maybe it does replicate your competition style if you happen to sit back ridiculously far without falling backwards even when raw, but the fact is it’s not a true ME variation for a raw competitor.[/quote]

are you saying that the whole carry-over discussion is pointless ?

not trying to pin ya down or anything…you may be right though , that I must be missing the point[/quote]

Not at all, but the point is that a box squat doesn’t replicate your free raw squat adequately - which is what your choice of ME variation should do.

The carryover discussion is relevant, but if you feel you get great carryover from doing 5RMs on box squats or whatever, why not program it as assistance?[/quote]

…using what for ME work ?

858

[quote]marlboroman wrote:

…using what for ME work ?[/quote]

A different squat variation.

859

@STB: What’s the purpose of speed-strength work? I know strength-speed teaches speed/RFD under heavy load, but the book of methods claims speed-strength work is to develop acceleration of light-medium loads. The only thing I could think of would be using it as a practice of technique and deload from strength-speed work.

860

louiek, technique is a big part of that but also neural efficiency. Think of it like over-clocking a computer, only you’re over-clocking your nervous system.