The Westside Method Thread

Training Powerlifting
421

Okay, so I just started my accumulation phase today and it was hell on earth. I think my pecs are going to fall off. Anyways, I was gassed by the time I was done with my DE benches. I did 20 sets of 3 in 21:11 - Not very good. I think I should lower the weight next week.

As I was saying, should I cut down on the volume of my assistance work during this phase and just pick it back up when I start my normal speed/strength phase? I typically do 4 sets of 12-15 reps for each assistance exercise, and I was thinking of cutting back to 3 sets of 8-10. Does that sound like a good idea?

CS

422

what percentage did you do for bench press?

423

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
Okay, so I just started my accumulation phase today and it was hell on earth. I think my pecs are going to fall off. Anyways, I was gassed by the time I was done with my DE benches. I did 20 sets of 3 in 21:11 - Not very good. I think I should lower the weight next week.

As I was saying, should I cut down on the volume of my assistance work during this phase and just pick it back up when I start my normal speed/strength phase? I typically do 4 sets of 12-15 reps for each assistance exercise, and I was thinking of cutting back to 3 sets of 8-10. Does that sound like a good idea?

CS[/quote]

What I’m doing this phase is high rep (10-12) supersets as my accessory work before reducing the volume and working to 3-6RMs when I get into the intensification phase. Not sure if this is what you should be doing, but if the goal is gpp during this phase I figured might as well focus all my training towards achieving that before running myself into the ground the next phase. Also leading up to my last meet I did most of my accessory stuff this way as I was coming out of football season and doing my first week of LTT following the meet this past week has been a breeze so far with 30sec rest between sets. See what STB has to say though because just like you I’m just starting to properly put this training all together and I\m loving every minute of it!

424

[quote]Vladamir wrote:
what percentage did you do for bench press? [/quote]

50%. My all-time best bench is 275, but I haven’t maxed out in a long time, so I put myself at 250.

CS

425

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
It was definitely parallel.

The only thing I can think of is form. But like I said, I’ve read that if you’re a raw lifter it’s better to do box squats similar to your free squat - so without pushing your hips WAAAAAAY back like Westside do. Even so, I would have thought breaking up the movement and relaxing would lose some of that stretch reflex so should be weaker anyway. I wasn’t rocking or anything either. So maybe that explains some kind of strength and weakness I possess if it’s the case for me?[/quote]

It’s definitely NOT more beneficial for raw squatting. Squatting wide and sitting back harder will make your raw squat go up. Squatting narrow and doing a free squat with a box under you completely defeats the purpose of box squatting. No one likes boax squatting this way because its really really hard… which should tell you something.

426

[quote]MaxCooper wrote:

Hi guys, ive just taped myself on my first week of an accumulation phase on DE squats and noticed (among other things) that my back is rounded on squats.

ive put the video in the post the problem is there on both reps but most noticable on the second, what can i do to fix this with my assistance work? Is it normally a strength factor in my lower back or could it also be a hamstring tightness

for the Accumulation phase, when you say little accumulating resistance is this 0 to a very small amount or the 25% reccommended for Speed strength?
and finally when would a person use a strength-speed wave?
Cheers[/quote]

  1. Make sure you warm up your hips and hamstrings
  2. Flex your lats harder
  3. Widen your stance if you can
  4. Push your knees out harder

It’s a technique and positioning issue, not a strength issue.

I would suggest zero tension or chains. Thats a good rule to have though, if you do want to use it, keep it under 25%

Use the Strength-Speed wave sometime later in training, like the last 2-3 weeks before you go into the transformation block.

Personally, I like to do a three week cycle, deload, do a regular 3 week speed strength cycle, then go into my Transformation Block (which is only 2 weeks). This is just what works best for me though, you’ll have to mess around with the timing to see what works best for you (this may take a couple competitions to dial it in).

427

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]Vladamir wrote:
Since I am still a skinny bastard I was wondering when should I start doing extra workouts? Im still in the accumulation phase now can I start them now or should I wait until I get into the intensification phase.[/quote]

Do them all the time. Wait for STB to comment, but he remarked how you should really be doing SOMETHING every single day.[/quote]

Bingo. Read back a little bit, there was a really good discussion about how to start working in extra workouts.

428

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Has the topic of what to do for extra workouts been touched upon?
[/quote]

A little bit.

Some ideas to include:
Squatting and benching with the bar.
Medicine Ball Work
Sled/Prowler
Box Jumps
Plenty of MOB and foam rolling
Medleys with X amount of weight for X amount of clean and jerks in as fast as possible
Circuits

Theres a lot here to do. Just do some thinking honestly. If you have ME squat tomorrow it might not be a good idea to do hill sprints but prowler, bar work, and foam rolling would be good. If you have upper the next day probably not a good idea to go all out with med balls and upper body circuits.

Just tailor it to the day, its easy if you put a bit of thought in.[/quote]

Just think of it as extra time to work on the stuff you suck at and that makes structuring the workout a lot easier. I don’t know if it was talked about before but try to limit extra workouts to only 20 minutes.

429

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
Okay, so I just started my accumulation phase today and it was hell on earth. I think my pecs are going to fall off. Anyways, I was gassed by the time I was done with my DE benches. I did 20 sets of 3 in 21:11 - Not very good. I think I should lower the weight next week.

As I was saying, should I cut down on the volume of my assistance work during this phase and just pick it back up when I start my normal speed/strength phase? I typically do 4 sets of 12-15 reps for each assistance exercise, and I was thinking of cutting back to 3 sets of 8-10. Does that sound like a good idea?

CS[/quote]

You really want this whole block to be very high volume but not to the extent that you are killing yourself. This should be your highest training volume block when compared to the other 2 (which are higher in relative training volumes because of bands and chains and heavier weight).

What percentage of your max were you using on the speed benches?

430

[quote]clutz15 wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
Okay, so I just started my accumulation phase today and it was hell on earth. I think my pecs are going to fall off. Anyways, I was gassed by the time I was done with my DE benches. I did 20 sets of 3 in 21:11 - Not very good. I think I should lower the weight next week.

As I was saying, should I cut down on the volume of my assistance work during this phase and just pick it back up when I start my normal speed/strength phase? I typically do 4 sets of 12-15 reps for each assistance exercise, and I was thinking of cutting back to 3 sets of 8-10. Does that sound like a good idea?

CS[/quote]

What I’m doing this phase is high rep (10-12) supersets as my accessory work before reducing the volume and working to 3-6RMs when I get into the intensification phase. Not sure if this is what you should be doing, but if the goal is gpp during this phase I figured might as well focus all my training towards achieving that before running myself into the ground the next phase. Also leading up to my last meet I did most of my accessory stuff this way as I was coming out of football season and doing my first week of LTT following the meet this past week has been a breeze so far with 30sec rest between sets. See what STB has to say though because just like you I’m just starting to properly put this training all together and I\m loving every minute of it!
[/quote]

This is exactly correct.

431

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:

[quote]Vladamir wrote:
what percentage did you do for bench press? [/quote]

50%. My all-time best bench is 275, but I haven’t maxed out in a long time, so I put myself at 250.

CS[/quote]

Shit, disregard my percentage question. Next time you go, try to beat your old time. 21mins is a long ass time to be dynamic benching so try to knock a few minutes off next week.

432

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]MaxCooper wrote:

Hi guys, ive just taped myself on my first week of an accumulation phase on DE squats and noticed (among other things) that my back is rounded on squats.

ive put the video in the post the problem is there on both reps but most noticable on the second, what can i do to fix this with my assistance work? Is it normally a strength factor in my lower back or could it also be a hamstring tightness

for the Accumulation phase, when you say little accumulating resistance is this 0 to a very small amount or the 25% reccommended for Speed strength?
and finally when would a person use a strength-speed wave?
Cheers[/quote]

  1. Make sure you warm up your hips and hamstrings
  2. Flex your lats harder
  3. Widen your stance if you can
  4. Push your knees out harder

It’s a technique and positioning issue, not a strength issue.

I would suggest zero tension or chains. Thats a good rule to have though, if you do want to use it, keep it under 25%

Use the Strength-Speed wave sometime later in training, like the last 2-3 weeks before you go into the transformation block.

Personally, I like to do a three week cycle, deload, do a regular 3 week speed strength cycle, then go into my Transformation Block (which is only 2 weeks). This is just what works best for me though, you’ll have to mess around with the timing to see what works best for you (this may take a couple competitions to dial it in).[/quote]

thanks for the help

433

STB, would you check my video and comment ? Thanks in advance.

434

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]LoveSquatting wrote:
Just did DE lower body. MOV00030 - YouTube here’s a vid of the DL. Is this fast ? Seems good to me. My max is 140kg, that is 65kg bar weight and 2x10kg chains.[/quote]

Lol it was fast enough I actually thought you sped up the video.[/quote]

If you went any faster, it would be a jump. Awesome speed and awesome pull, man.

435

STB and others,
I’ve just started doing Semi-Sumo for my ME lift. I did them for two workouts as my supplementary exercise and they felt awkward but I’m getting the hang of them more now. Did them ME tonight and got 405 for a single (conventional ~500). This isn’t perhaps 100% westside related but since most people who train westside will have experience with many different stances and such, do you keep your toes pointed straight forward or flared out with semi-sumo? I’ve been doing them in a typical squat rack with my feet basically touching the ends of the rack. I don’t have flat shoes so I’ve been doing them in tennis shoes and just barely have my feet touching the sides of the rack just for stability purposes I guess. I might run these for the full 3 weeks since I’ve been moving up a good bit every week and these are brand new to me.

Also, STB I wanted to just make mention (which I’m sure you already know but perhaps wanted to put it out there for others as well) but about the last post and obese/sedentary people having a larger diameter of Type II fibers. I’m pretty sure that’s because when you are in an untrained state you’re type IIb (IIx) fibers are of a larger proportion than Type IIa fibers as oppose to when you train for a period of time, your fibers move to a higher proportion of Type IIa fibers as oppose to IIb (IIx). I can only speculate as to why that is but perhaps they are like that for situations of extreme adversity (right word?) such as fight or flight, adrenaline pumping experience (running from a lion/fighting off a cougar). Just my opinion on that. I guess this isn’t westside related either but just wanted to throw it out there since we got to talking about fiber composition.

And lastly, I guess I would go ahead and ask if it is necessary or better to throw the high rep exercise before the 6RM supp. exercise? I like throwing the high rep/tension exercise after the supp. exercise and also I feel like you have to keep track of two records if not, such as 6RM during a workout when you test your 6 RM before a high rep exercise and then your 6 RM during a workout when you test your 6 RM after a high rep exercise. Thoughts? Thanks

436

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:

[quote]Vladamir wrote:
what percentage did you do for bench press? [/quote]

50%. My all-time best bench is 275, but I haven’t maxed out in a long time, so I put myself at 250.

CS[/quote]

Shit, disregard my percentage question. Next time you go, try to beat your old time. 21mins is a long ass time to be dynamic benching so try to knock a few minutes off next week.[/quote]

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I’ll just throw on some of the darkest music I have and go to town.

CS

437

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
It was definitely parallel.

The only thing I can think of is form. But like I said, I’ve read that if you’re a raw lifter it’s better to do box squats similar to your free squat - so without pushing your hips WAAAAAAY back like Westside do. Even so, I would have thought breaking up the movement and relaxing would lose some of that stretch reflex so should be weaker anyway. I wasn’t rocking or anything either. So maybe that explains some kind of strength and weakness I possess if it’s the case for me?[/quote]

It’s definitely NOT more beneficial for raw squatting. Squatting wide and sitting back harder will make your raw squat go up. Squatting narrow and doing a free squat with a box under you completely defeats the purpose of box squatting. No one likes boax squatting this way because its really really hard… which should tell you something.[/quote]

Well I don’t know then.

Looking at some videos, I was still pushing my hips back to a fair degree and fairly wide stance. You say this should be easier than a close-stance. Well, I’m only worried about the fact that I box squatted the same as I free squat.

Should this really not be the case or is it possible that it reveals some kind of strength/weakness that I have that is causing that to happen? I do know of some other lifters who have a bigger box squat than free squat (raw) - whether they are just doing it badly or what, I don’t know.

438

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
It was definitely parallel.

The only thing I can think of is form. But like I said, I’ve read that if you’re a raw lifter it’s better to do box squats similar to your free squat - so without pushing your hips WAAAAAAY back like Westside do. Even so, I would have thought breaking up the movement and relaxing would lose some of that stretch reflex so should be weaker anyway. I wasn’t rocking or anything either. So maybe that explains some kind of strength and weakness I possess if it’s the case for me?[/quote]

It’s definitely NOT more beneficial for raw squatting. Squatting wide and sitting back harder will make your raw squat go up. Squatting narrow and doing a free squat with a box under you completely defeats the purpose of box squatting. No one likes boax squatting this way because its really really hard… which should tell you something.[/quote]

If you are DE day also serves as a “practice” for the competition lifts, why can’t a form similar to your free squat be used?

Also, I’ve seen the old westside DVD’s and louie lists close stance box squatting even as an ME movement(though I think it’s done raw). What would be the cons doing “not wide” box squat?

439

[quote]cscsDPT17 wrote:
STB and others,
I’ve just started doing Semi-Sumo for my ME lift. I did them for two workouts as my supplementary exercise and they felt awkward but I’m getting the hang of them more now. Did them ME tonight and got 405 for a single (conventional ~500). This isn’t perhaps 100% westside related but since most people who train westside will have experience with many different stances and such, do you keep your toes pointed straight forward or flared out with semi-sumo? I’ve been doing them in a typical squat rack with my feet basically touching the ends of the rack. I don’t have flat shoes so I’ve been doing them in tennis shoes and just barely have my feet touching the sides of the rack just for stability purposes I guess. I might run these for the full 3 weeks since I’ve been moving up a good bit every week and these are brand new to me.

Also, STB I wanted to just make mention (which I’m sure you already know but perhaps wanted to put it out there for others as well) but about the last post and obese/sedentary people having a larger diameter of Type II fibers. I’m pretty sure that’s because when you are in an untrained state you’re type IIb (IIx) fibers are of a larger proportion than Type IIa fibers as oppose to when you train for a period of time, your fibers move to a higher proportion of Type IIa fibers as oppose to IIb (IIx). I can only speculate as to why that is but perhaps they are like that for situations of extreme adversity (right word?) such as fight or flight, adrenaline pumping experience (running from a lion/fighting off a cougar). Just my opinion on that. I guess this isn’t westside related either but just wanted to throw it out there since we got to talking about fiber composition.

And lastly, I guess I would go ahead and ask if it is necessary or better to throw the high rep exercise before the 6RM supp. exercise? I like throwing the high rep/tension exercise after the supp. exercise and also I feel like you have to keep track of two records if not, such as 6RM during a workout when you test your 6 RM before a high rep exercise and then your 6 RM during a workout when you test your 6 RM after a high rep exercise. Thoughts? Thanks[/quote]

Ideally, you want to keep your toes straight. Same goes for squats too. Then your toes turn out too much, it puts a lot of tension on your posterior tibialis. This muscle bascally creates the arch in your foot. When your toes get turned out past 9-10 degrees, your arch collapses, your medial chain is now wide open at the knee, you lose some hip abbduction (which is all squatting and deadlifting is if you are doing it right), and it also causes slight valgus. The problem most lifter run into with straight feet is the incredible amount of torque it puts on your hips. You need to be very mobile in order to get in a good squat with straight toes. I’d say just get them straight-ish and if your knees arent caving at all when you pull, you should be fine.

I think that is absolutely correct about fiber types. Your body will default to the most ideal conditions for survival in whatever enviroment its in. Sedentary people adapt to a once in a while life threatening situation. Training heavy and often forces your body into a fight or flight response every training session. Recovery becomes priority at this point. All recovery is aerobic… I guess that pretty much explains everything.

You are over thinking the hell out of this. Just add a shitload more volume for lagging muscle groups and movements you suck at. Plus, say for bench pressing, you will eventually get the ability to make that 6rm after the higher rep work very close to s a fresh 6rm.

440

[quote]simonsky96 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
It was definitely parallel.

The only thing I can think of is form. But like I said, I’ve read that if you’re a raw lifter it’s better to do box squats similar to your free squat - so without pushing your hips WAAAAAAY back like Westside do. Even so, I would have thought breaking up the movement and relaxing would lose some of that stretch reflex so should be weaker anyway. I wasn’t rocking or anything either. So maybe that explains some kind of strength and weakness I possess if it’s the case for me?[/quote]

It’s definitely NOT more beneficial for raw squatting. Squatting wide and sitting back harder will make your raw squat go up. Squatting narrow and doing a free squat with a box under you completely defeats the purpose of box squatting. No one likes boax squatting this way because its really really hard… which should tell you something.[/quote]

If you are DE day also serves as a “practice” for the competition lifts, why can’t a form similar to your free squat be used?

Also, I’ve seen the old westside DVD’s and louie lists close stance box squatting even as an ME movement(though I think it’s done raw). What would be the cons doing “not wide” box squat?[/quote]

For DE work, it is ok as the competition gets closer to use a stance the is closer to your competition stance. With gear, withour gear it doesn’t matter. What matters later in training is specificity and transfer to sport. What matters early in training is developing weaknesses. Everyone sucks at box squats when they are done correctly. Doing the same squat, with the same height, with the same stance, year round, is just shitty programming.

You can do whatever you want for ME work as long as it is working on something you are bad at. So a close stance, raw, low box squat would be great for lower back and quad strength (i.e. the start of a deadlift) while a wide, raw low box squat would be much more benenficial to the hips and hamstrings (more mimicing the abbduction/global extension required for squatting).

Again, if your raw box squat is the same as or more than your raw free squat, you are doing something wrong.