They probably aren’t tracking the 1 in 10,000 that go overboard and use too much for too long.
The vast majority of people that trip on shrooms are going to get their gourds rocked for 6-8 hrs and go “Whoa! That’s gonna be a once in a blue moon, if ever again thing.”.
Stats aren’t going to tell you everything. They only tell you what has been documented and analyzed.
Fair enough, but statistically (and from what I’ve seen) FAR more go overboard frequently with booze compared to shrooms, and the consequence is extreme. Nearly one in five Australians statistically drink at a rate that is considered risky (frequently and fairly heavily)… 11.1 percent of young Australians drink to an extent that would be considered diagnostic criteria AUD (alcohol use disorder)
So say out of 10,000, 1,000 develop a dependence/use disorder of which has extreme, long lasting consequences (both psychologically and physically)… this is legal
Vs 1 in 10,000 who develop a use disorder of which may affect them psychologically… and you’ll net jail time for possession…
it’s really late here, I need to get some sleep, we can continue this chat tomorrow.
For the vast majority
This is entirely true, I don’t see there to be much recreational value within the intake of shrooms (my perception). I believe perhaps therapeutically within a controlled setting it may harbour more merit… as in administered by a medical professional (data is coming out regarding PTSD, treatment resistant depression treatment etc).
Those who microdose EOD or whatever, I find this practice idiotic. The concept (I’ve brought this up a few times) of 5 ht2b mediated cardiotoxicity from repeated use is concerning… we have no idea what the long term impact on neurology is. We have no data to suggest these compounds are neurotoxic, but like SARMS in the bodybuilding community I’d tread with the utmost caution (and now data has amounted indicating SARMS aren’t safe… but this is a separate topic I won’t delve into unless asked)
A fair portion of people were like “hey, it’s legal now, let’s see what this is all about”, but those aren’t the sort of people who are going to start smoking every day. I stopped smoking weed years ago but after it was legalized I bought some just to try it out, it just doesn’t appeal to me. It makes me feel drowsy and kind of nervous, not really a good feeling. CBD oil is good for aches and pains though, and makes you sleep extra good.
From what I understand, Muslims are only against “intoxicating drugs”, which would not include tobacco or coffee.
I think those ordinary, agreeable and rule-abiding people are playing edgelord and LARP’er when they say “Legalize all drugs. Let people kill them selves if they wish. It’s their bodies.” To wit: they’re full of 
.
Smoking is legal in muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia (restricted to those under 18 though). Coffee isn’t considered an intoxicant under muslim law either. Some muslim countries like Iran turn a blind eye to cannabis. The Koran (muslim book similar to bible/Torah) doesn’t forbid cannabis, though it does forbid alcohol. One needs to make an interpretation based upon the text.
Well, statistics wouldn’t indicate this portion of people is particularly significant. However I’d agree with you… though my brother wouldn’t touch it whether it were legal or not. He thinks alcohol is less harmful and remains very stubborn/unopen to interpreting scientific data regarding the issue… But still believes legalisation should occur on the basis of harm reduction/revenue generated and reducing incarceration rates. I personally don’t like to use it frequently because it makes me feel hazy/unproductive for the following 24 hours post use, same with alcohol (though a hangover is 100x worse)
I don’t like this, I feel as if it’s a judgement/attack on those who harbour a differing opinion to that of yours. There are doctors/MD’s, these with PHD’s, highly educated people calling for drug legalisation. Are you telling me you certainly know more than they do? That they’re edgelords? I certainly don’t know more than they do
YOU can think these people are full of shit, I say “they’ve got a point”, although I disagree with the legalisation of all drugs. I can’t imagine you’d still believe prison time is the right answer for drug possession… we can’t even keep drugs out of prison, if we can’t keep them out of prison… how can you expect to keep them out of society.
Furthermore, the consequences of prison are long lasting, aside from the psychological trauma that can occur locked up… the induction of a criminal record once out severely limits employment opportunity (at least it does here in Aus… good luck getting any job here with a criminal record).
The result is… now having been potentially affiliated with hardened criminals, having been present around drugs prior to prison (and perhaps in prison)… this individual may turn to selling drugs to make ends meet and/or engage in criminal behaviour. Despite skyrocketing rates of arrest over the past five decades or so, rates of drug use haven’t decreased or have increased. This hints to me that our current approach isn’t working, in some cases (such as with MDMA) we may be inducing entirely preventable deaths
You’ve asked me “how can we make sure only a certain amount is taken?”… We can’t, but we can try our best. For instance, with MDMA/shrooms, say we make it a pharmacist only drug (only a pharmacist can dispense such an item)… there is a database kept recording (absent of consequence) anyone who purchases such an item. For psilocybin you can purchase such an item once monthly, for MDMA you can purchase such an item once every six weeks (preferably twelve, but this wouldn’t work out). Dosages would be capped (I don’t know MDMA dosages… lets say 125-150mg, well below the purported lethal dose of 10-20mg/kg… I don’t use MDMA and I’m not particularly educated regarding how much one needs to “roll”). For psilocybin a cap at five grams. Those who purchase such items will be briefed regarding the harms/risks absent of judgement, once within that database. My reasoning of which states such long breaks of abstinence are required is due to
As to "why wouldn’t people buy it, give it to their friends… perhaps they will, but those who don’t use this probably wouldn’t want to be on this database, perhaps they wouldn’t feel comfortable buying it from a pharmacist/going through all the hassle. Those deemed high risk (those with congenital cardiac defects… say ventricular septal defect (most common) or something more uncommon like congenital hypertrophic cardiomyopathy…) given these people have the ability to buy booze I see no reason why they should be barred from purchasing something considerably less dangerous, though a dosage restriction might be imposed. Those with psychiatric disorders or on medication that interacts (SSRI for instance) would be barred from purchasing. An even more rigorous form of regulation would be the requirement of a GP visit to rule out inelligablity of use (though said visit/enquiry wouldn’t be put on you’re medical record)
With cannabis, just sell it like we sell alcoholic beverages @SkyzykS
Doctors are also largely responsible for the addiction epidemic. So…
Not so sure about that. The prescription opiate epidemic is primarily an American problem, not an Australian one. Australian docs are generally more cautious regarding prescribing drugs of addiction.
If you wish to believe that you or I know more than medical professionals, so be it… we can agree to disagree. Also, MDMA, cannabis etc isn’t oxycodone, you can’t compare the addictive potential of those two drugs and oxycodone, benzodiazepines etc
Should also be noted (I’ll find and link the study later today) a very large portion of those who abuse opiates do so from obtaining them
Very few get hooked after a 3 day course of hydrocodone after wisdom teeth surgery…
Whilst overprescribing was an issue for a while, as were “pill mills” if you will… the opiate epidemic has stigmitised and demonised a certain demographic of people who suffer from intolerable pain on a daily basis. These people are being forced to cut down/eliminate the only medications that make life tolerable. Some of these people are turning to the street (not because they’re addicted, but because without it life isn’t worth living)… I believe perhaps the new CDC guidelines (esp regarding restrictions imposed upon morphine equiv dosing… a very flawed ideology that I can explain if you wish) have induced more harm than they have good. Furthermore these were supposed to be “recommendations” yet they’ve been primarily passed as law.
Codiene WAS otc where I live… but addicts and kids alike were purchasing the stuff, extracting the codeine into water (absent of acetomitophren) drinking the mixture and dying/requiring hospitalisation… esp when it was combined with booze, though this has created quite the black market for codeine (older products containing codeine were stocked up upon prior to the ban).
Though now generally codeine is generally prescription only, dihyhdrocodiene can be dispensed OTC at a pharmacists discretion. Not all docs are pushers of addictive substances, these are few and far in between…
I live in America.
I was referring to both America and Australia.
This was referring to America
Yes, medical professionals make mistakes. Heroin was OTC in the US and elsewhere for decades (sold as a non addictive cough supressant), doctors advocated cigarettes up until the 60s etc. They don’t know “everything” either. Pertaining to performance enhancing drugs, they typically know fuck all. I’ve spoken to doctors within my family about this, apparently testosterone/PED usage (or therapeutic usage) is a topic rarely taught and/or only glossed over within medical school. I can out talk most doctors (including endocrinologists) about this particular issue, though if I were to debate with an endocrinologist about diabetes, mechanisms (on a cellular level) I’d lose… my reading/studying can’t compare to the amount of training one goes through in med school, esp when one decides to specialise
I don’t believe wanting harm minimisation strategies implemented, enforcing pill testing and regulation of softer substances is one of the “mistakes” they’re going to make on par with the opiate crisis wrecking havoc currently upon America
In America it was predomantly opiates, here it’s crystal meth… ice has ravaged particularly rural communities within Australia
Some, not all. And when I said ordinary, I did t have doctors, lawyers, and PhD’s. High-IQ, highly educated, and high-earning people (not talking 100k) aren’t ordinary, and if they have interest in the subject, they likely don’t make the cold and callous remark, “I don’t care if someone kills himself with drugs. It’s his body.”
But despite the intentions or reasoning they have, such people usually live a segregated life in super zips and keep themselves and their own away from drug users, and generally don’t want them using them. Drug use usually isn’t on the conveyor belt they and their kids rode and ride to top tier schools and professions. So there is incongruence amongst some of them.
As my retired therapist said To me at seventeen years old, in the first of the 20 years I visited him, “from the guy on the corner making your deli sandwich, up to the President, most people are full of shit!” Simple but profound. It only took over a decade to sink in.
Not prison, but perhaps other penalties, depending on amount, type of drug, and number of offenses. I’ve said several times I don’t want people lives wrecked from possession for use. Distribution is another story.
I’m going to give a few examples, tell me what you believe the appropriate penalty is.
All examples lets say are strictly for personal use
It’s definitely clear you and I want to live in different societies. I truly wouldn’t care if all mind-altering drugs were banned, devalued, and highly discouraged, even if I wanted to use them.
The legalize drug crowd seems to think these drug users will still function satisfactorily in society. It’ll be a fucking nightmare
He’s right
They used to give people oxycontin for minor things, I know a guy who had his tonsils removed and they prescribed it to him. He took it once and he said the way he felt was worse than the pain (which was minor) so that was it. Now they are very careful giving opiates, maybe a bit too careful. Another guy I know had surgery and they only gave him a few doses of percocet and he has to go back to the doctor every few days to get more even though he was in constant pain.
There’s already enough people on prescription drugs who can’t function, just imagine throwing some heroin, coke, and meth into the mix.
What do you think about legal weed? Over here nothing much changed since it was legalized, they just came up with roadside THC tests and there are weed stores.
Yup! It’s not just that. I was given example of repeat offenders. Being unable or unwilling to follow directions and rules Is a problem in itself. And like, yeah, I know that not every rule in every place of this world is just to all people.
Has anyone here known that routine rule breaker or scatterbrain on the job or class who seems to not be able to go through one damn day without causing trouble or can’t count to ten!
One or two drinks won’t do any harm or leave you with a hangover. I hate hangovers, and drinking too much isn’t going to do me any good so I avoid that. For people who smoke weed regularly, a small amount might not have any negative effect and just give them a little buzz, but many people who don’t smoke regularly are pretty much incapacitated when they do.
I’ve specified repeatedly I disagree with hard drug use being legalised
As a matter of fact what @BrickHead’s response was was pretty spot on with what I believe, barring the fact that I believe MDMA should be regulated
I don’t value recreational drug use as a prime aspect of my life, yet I don’t believe in criminalisation/prohibition. I do believe in freedom of choice…
Regarding my off label usage of certain medications. If I still lived in america I would’ve gotten it prescribed legally via many clinics of which I know will provide me with what
I require provided I give documentation to prove chronic pain is present (and I have said documentation). As a matter of fact I’m saving up (slowly, it’ll take a few years) in order to do just this, take the medication home… Australia is very, very strict regarding hormones… some say it’s the hardest country in the world (for TRT)… TT needs to typically be below
170ng/dl… on three separate tests all three months apart before they’ll consider TRT. I went private, yet my condition was fairly severe thus I qualified… took a year though
Before you say this.. why not look at the statistics (overdoses, drug fueled violence, needle related HIV transmission) present in Portugal vs the US… the results speak for themselves, look at the unemployment rate, the incarceration rate etc. regardless, we can agree to disagree.
I don’t think cannabis/soft drug legalisation induces significant societal detriment. Alcohol is a hard drug, given the consequence that stems from abuse (acute and chronic) and just how addictive it is… I’d be hard pressed to find a convincing arguement telling me alcohol is softer/of less detriment than cannabis, MDMA and psychedelic drugs.
Legalisation/decriminalisation doesn’t equate to everybody deciding to use. I’m not advocating the legalisation of hard drugs, that’s heinous… but when you consider we’ve legalised alcohol, a substance (if you disagree here I’ll link about 40 different studies) that’s on par with/more harmful than many currently illicit substances when abused (even acutely, and it’s WIDELY abused)… the sky didn’t fall… so why would you think cannabis/MDMA legalisation (albeit tightly controlled and regulated) would cause the sky to fall
NO society is going to agree to legalise cocaine, meth or heroin… the detriment is just too great. Like prescribing medication it’s a risk/reward ratio.
Like I’ve said, no one is advocating legalisation here… initial decriminalisation however…
You keep bringing this up, im unsure whether you’re implying that I have a conduct disorder… I follow the rules a good 99% of the time… this doesn’t relate to me. I adknowledge we have those with conduct disorders, we have sociopaths/psychopathic/delinquent types who don’t follow the rules “just because”… these people are legitimate threats
I don’t consider my actions/conduct to have an adverse effect on anyone besides myself… and I’d be right… I’m not a threat to society
I actually was one of these people, though not purposely… I have terrible ADHD yet refuse to take the medication required to treat it (amphetamines), so organisationally I was all over the place and thus frequently got in trouble for having shitty organisational skills. I snuck around (so did everyone) on school camp.
Long term the jury is out. Two drinks daily according to new data isn’t safe. Furthermore it’s dependent on individualistic tolerance. My father, brother and I despite not drinking regularly have absurd levels of tolerance. The sheer amount alcohol required to induce a state of intoxication within myself puts tremendous strain on my liver, kidneys, heart etc
Microdoses… I don’t smoke often, so comparative to others within my cohort that do… I have to be more careful if I’m to smoke with them as my tolerance is lower. These people with no tolerance can easily take one or two drags, put the marijuana cigarette down… just as one can have a small tot of whisky instead of drinking the entire bottle