The Triumph of Socialism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

Google it found nothing. Many East Germans, then and now did not want to join a singular German entity. They wanted to slough the East German totalitarian regime that was considered regressive even by neighboring Eastern Bloc nations. The West Germans wanted to ‘buy’ East Germany and flip it like an old real estate property. It didn’t work out like that.

Who what where? You guys bring up all these points, about Russians fleeing Soviet Union, and the liberated concentration camps of East Germany…yet never bring any proof. You want me to bring proof of my statements? I can. You guys on the other hand, can’t. The on shed of proof you brought was contrary to fact, and contradicted itself within the same text. Maybe, if you bring something…you know, substantial?

That’s very off. I would admit for a wealth or upper middle class American the USSR didn’t have as much to offer materially. But for 80% of the world, and the lower classes of Western Europe and the USA, the USSR would have been a better lifestyle and system.

I suppose the ‘Capitalist West,’ was pure benevolence, as if the CIA initiated Kissinger pogroms in Argentina, Chile, Brazil, that left nearly millions dead, ‘were not horrific shit holes’ compared to the USSR, right? Yet I thought Capitalism was so perfect it didn’t need to take heavy handed action like that? Like the manufactured CIA war in Vietnam that left millions dead, and was illegal as the Nazi invasion of Poland, and colonial to the core, as an act of the peaceful Capitalist benevolence you speak of.

To simply try ‘force’ a little bit, the people who did not want to be a part of our system under the rifle butt of the gun, and skin burning chemical weapons to just, you know, see the light.

Or how about, the glorious ‘Capitalist West,’ that is Mexico, having countless peasants risking their life to crawl through septic tanks to the great Capitalist United States? Isn’t Capitalism supposed to be better for everyone? Why are 95% of Capitalist nations impoverished shitholes, yet of course you say “WELL THOSE ARE THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES!,” and only count the ‘successful’ ones.

This is IRONIC because the successful ones you count, are about as Capitalist as China is Communist. Spain, France, Germany, Italy, UK, Canada are all SOCIALIST countries, and these make up nigh ALL of your successful CAPITALIST COUNTRY examples.

So geee, if Capitalism has failed in every country its been in, why are people so eager to try it again?

I guess Capitalism, and Socialism (Communist Ideology), are both failed systems…then perhaps you are getting what I’ve been saying all the long. GET YOUR MIND OUT OF THE COLD WAR MENTALITY! It’s not about the fucking label on the system, it’s about the holistic implementation of it.

And this is why, I continuosly compare, the article to things like a ‘1957 Pravda’ newspaper, or say alot of people in the West are as brainwashed as ‘North Korean Slave Drones,’ right… Becuase I believe everything the Communist say is true! You’re real sharp there, bud.

My whole point is not that Communist ideology gives birth to paradise, or that Capitalism is a failed system. I’m saying we need to move past this Cold War thought, into new holistic systems that envelope the best aspects of either. Yet you guys are so regressive you take that is, 'HE R @ KOMOONEST??!"

Seriously, get in the 21st century.

82

[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
they were not in the right side of the spectrum though.
How not? Nazis were pretty damn right wing, by the American right/left split standard.

yeah pretty much if you have any socialist leanings you are a crybaby who cannot stand on your own, that is what that means.
Wow what an astute analysis you’ve made. If believing in social justice and opposing perverse racial/ethnic standards for societal services, yet believing everyone should have equal access to social security nets, then I guess I’m a crybaby. Are you a ‘libertarian,’ by chance?[/quote]

No, but what you described is not the truth of socialism. You are giving your chosen oppressed groups unfair access to things, fair is what you can obtain, what you can do of your own merit, not taken away from someone else because they don’t fit into one of you special interest groups,

And again I will say if this is what you want go to europe leave us that have motivation to better ourselves alone.

83

[quote]No, but what you described is not the truth of socialism. You are giving your chosen oppressed groups unfair access to things, fair is what you can obtain, what you can do of your own merit, not taken away from someone else because they don’t fit into one of you special interest groups,

And again I will say if this is what you want go to europe leave us that have motivation to better ourselves alone. [/quote]
We actually agree. You misunderstood, America as it currently stands favors people under perverse racial/ethnic standards for governmetn services most especially in the fields of jobs and education. I beleive we abolish this, everyone should be judged by their merit. The government should provide support for students based on their merit, not race or color.

I think you want to go to Europe because what you have described, is the way America aleady is. I am against that.

84

[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:

The hilarious part is though that he accepts parts of Sowjet propaganda at face value, because they of all people were telling the truth.
And this is why, I continuosly compare, the article to things like a ‘1957 Pravda’ newspaper, or say alot of people in the West are as brainwashed as ‘North Korean Slave Drones,’ right… Becuase I believe everything the Communist say is true! You’re real sharp there, bud.

My whole point is not that Communist ideology gives birth to paradise, or that Capitalism is a failed system. I’m saying we need to move past this Cold War thought, into new holistic systems that envelope the best aspects of either. Yet you guys are so regressive you take that is, 'HE R @ KOMOONEST??!"

Seriously, get in the 21st century.[/quote]

Seriously, learn from the 20th.

I posted about Sowjet defections.

You say those people lie.

I posted about Cubans fleeing Cuba.

You say most of them are happy were they are even though some try to swim to the US in order to be “wage slaves”.

You posted that the the SU was relatively well off compared to capitalist nations,even though their companies were not able to deal with the competition of those “inefficient” western companies.

Seriously, please.

Those shitholes needed to fence people in.

People were not even allowed to vote with their feet.

85

[quote]orion wrote:
3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
Did it ever occur to you that Russia needed to prevent people from fleeing socialist freedom by force whereas America has a hard time keeping potential “wage slaves” out?

Something does not compute.
[/quote]

Yea you’re calling the Soviet Union something that it was not.
It was socialistic in some respects, but their economies and governments(remember, social control from other thread?) were controlled by a single political party in an inflexible and authoritatian manner.

86

[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
No, but what you described is not the truth of socialism. You are giving your chosen oppressed groups unfair access to things, fair is what you can obtain, what you can do of your own merit, not taken away from someone else because they don’t fit into one of you special interest groups,

And again I will say if this is what you want go to europe leave us that have motivation to better ourselves alone.
We actually agree. You misunderstood, America as it currently stands favors people under perverse racial/ethnic standards for governmetn services most especially in the fields of jobs and education. I beleive we abolish this, everyone should be judged by their merit. The government should provide support for students based on their merit, not race or color.

I think you want to go to Europe because what you have described, is the way America aleady is. I am against that.[/quote]

I hate the european way of life,

I see that government is an unchecked power.

87

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
No, but what you described is not the truth of socialism. You are giving your chosen oppressed groups unfair access to things, fair is what you can obtain, what you can do of your own merit, not taken away from someone else because they don’t fit into one of you special interest groups,

And again I will say if this is what you want go to europe leave us that have motivation to better ourselves alone.
We actually agree. You misunderstood, America as it currently stands favors people under perverse racial/ethnic standards for governmetn services most especially in the fields of jobs and education. I beleive we abolish this, everyone should be judged by their merit. The government should provide support for students based on their merit, not race or color.

I think you want to go to Europe because what you have described, is the way America aleady is. I am against that.

I hate the european way of life,

I see that government is an unchecked power.
[/quote]

so you’re from “Pennsylvania” huh? That’s strange considering the huge conspiracy over if that state even actually exists!!!

88

…omg, hatred is sooo uncivilized, how gauche of you gasp

89

[quote]spyoptic wrote:
orion wrote:
3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
Did it ever occur to you that Russia needed to prevent people from fleeing socialist freedom by force whereas America has a hard time keeping potential “wage slaves” out?

Something does not compute.

Yea you’re calling the Soviet Union something that it was not.
It was socialistic in some respects, but their economies and governments(remember, social control from other thread?) were controlled by a single political party in an inflexible and authoritatian manner.

[/quote]

I always hear of this mystical “socialism” that is supposed to be so great, but somehow it always ends up in mass murder. Why is that?

Also, if you are worried about social control, what good will it do to give a government full control of the means of production.

And, if the government is not supposed to be the entity controlling them, who will?

90

socialism essentially spawned this misnomer “good in theory, bad in practice” . To put it bluntly, if the theory was good, then it would WORK in practice. theory is only as useful as its applicable arm.

Props to pepe silvia.

91

[quote]ephrem wrote:
apbt55 wrote:I hate the european way of life,

…omg, hatred is sooo uncivilized, how gauche of you gasp[/quote]

oh yes, it more civilized to pretend people do not have feelings or emotions, not learn to understand them and how to express them.

Hate is a natural feeling or emotion, the opposite of love. So what you are trying to say is it is uncivilized to have feelings, opinion, emotion. So you are the thought censor basically.

Wow sounds like the goal of most European socialst regimes to me.

92

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
apbt55 wrote:I hate the european way of life,

…omg, hatred is sooo uncivilized, how gauche of you gasp

oh yes, it more civilized to pretend people do not have feelings or emotions, not learn to understand them and how to express them.

Hate is a natural feeling or emotion, the opposite of love. So what you are trying to say is it is uncivilized to have feelings, opinion, emotion. So you are the thought censor basically.

Wow sounds like the goal of most European socialst regimes to me. [/quote]

…au contraire my good, but perhaps slightly inebriated, fellow. The point i was trying to make earlier, which you would be privy too had you taken the time to read all posts in this thread, that it’s the blind conviction that a certain system is either good or evil without the willingness to accept there might be a considerable grey area in which people thrive, i find reprehensible…

93

[quote]ephrem wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
apbt55 wrote:I hate the european way of life,

…omg, hatred is sooo uncivilized, how gauche of you gasp

oh yes, it more civilized to pretend people do not have feelings or emotions, not learn to understand them and how to express them.

Hate is a natural feeling or emotion, the opposite of love. So what you are trying to say is it is uncivilized to have feelings, opinion, emotion. So you are the thought censor basically.

Wow sounds like the goal of most European socialst regimes to me.

…au contraire my good, but perhaps slightly inebriated, fellow. The point i was trying to make earlier, which you would be privy too had you taken the time to read all posts in this thread, that it’s the blind conviction that a certain system is either good or evil without the willingness to accept there might be a considerable grey area in which people thrive, i find reprehensible…

[/quote]

You find that “reprehensible”?

You should not work with people under 30 then.

94

[quote]orion wrote:You find that “reprehensible”?

You should not work with people under 30 then.[/quote]

…i just liked the way that sounded tbh, and secularization freed many of us [of any age] from dogmatic thinking. Besides, we’ve invented the “poldermodel” whereby, through agreement and concession, parties find solutions that benefit their goals without conflict, because at the end of the day the old VOC motto, “Jesus is good, but profit is better” still holds true…

95

[quote]ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:You find that “reprehensible”?

You should not work with people under 30 then.

…i just liked the way that sounded tbh, and secularization freed many of us [of any age] from dogmatic thinking. Besides, we’ve invented the “poldermodel” whereby, through agreement and concession, parties find solutions that benefit their goals without conflict, because at the end of the day the old VOC motto, “Jesus is good, but profit is better” still holds true…[/quote]

I am all for dealing with other people.

I do not consider it “dealing” with them if they point a gun at me.

Not even when they are the majority of an arbitrary speck of land.

I find that this is used when the course of action proposed is in no way profitable for me.

96

[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
orion wrote:You find that “reprehensible”?

You should not work with people under 30 then.

…i just liked the way that sounded tbh, and secularization freed many of us [of any age] from dogmatic thinking. Besides, we’ve invented the “poldermodel” whereby, through agreement and concession, parties find solutions that benefit their goals without conflict, because at the end of the day the old VOC motto, “Jesus is good, but profit is better” still holds true…

I am all for dealing with other people.

I do not consider it “dealing” with them if they point a gun at me.

Not even when they are the majority of an arbitrary speck of land.

I find that this is used when the course of action proposed is in no way profitable for me.

[/quote]

…what are you talking about? If the profit is substantial enough no company will allow you to stand in it’s way, freemarket or not…

97

[quote]ephrem wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
apbt55 wrote:I hate the european way of life,

…omg, hatred is sooo uncivilized, how gauche of you gasp

oh yes, it more civilized to pretend people do not have feelings or emotions, not learn to understand them and how to express them.

Hate is a natural feeling or emotion, the opposite of love. So what you are trying to say is it is uncivilized to have feelings, opinion, emotion. So you are the thought censor basically.

Wow sounds like the goal of most European socialst regimes to me.

…au contraire my good, but perhaps slightly inebriated, fellow. The point i was trying to make earlier, which you would be privy too had you taken the time to read all posts in this thread, that it’s the blind conviction that a certain system is either good or evil without the willingness to accept there might be a considerable grey area in which people thrive, i find reprehensible…

[/quote]

Most of life is black and white,

grey areas are for people too unintelligent to make decisions or too scared to deal with the consequences.

Contrary to popular belief, there is good/bad , right/wrong.

There are universal truths and whether you choose to accept them or not, they are still there.

98

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
ephrem wrote:
apbt55 wrote:I hate the european way of life,

…omg, hatred is sooo uncivilized, how gauche of you gasp

oh yes, it more civilized to pretend people do not have feelings or emotions, not learn to understand them and how to express them.

Hate is a natural feeling or emotion, the opposite of love. So what you are trying to say is it is uncivilized to have feelings, opinion, emotion. So you are the thought censor basically.

Wow sounds like the goal of most European socialst regimes to me.

…au contraire my good, but perhaps slightly inebriated, fellow. The point i was trying to make earlier, which you would be privy too had you taken the time to read all posts in this thread, that it’s the blind conviction that a certain system is either good or evil without the willingness to accept there might be a considerable grey area in which people thrive, i find reprehensible…

Most of life is black and white,

grey areas are for people too unintelligent to make decisions or too scared to deal with the consequences.

Contrary to popular belief, there is good/bad , right/wrong.

There are universal truths and whether you choose to accept them or not, they are still there.
[/quote]

…by pontificating this polarized perception of your inbred culture you’re merely making my point: you’ve taken a system of social order and made it religion. As with any religion there is some truth to it, but most is just fluff that’s there to make you feel better about yourself…

…capitalism not only brings wealth to people who had little of it before, but it also devours this planet by extracting it’s resources at an alarming rate. Perpetual growth is a misnomer; the economy can only grow for as long as there are resources, and those resources are not perpetual. Now India and China require more and more oil, steel, wood and water and there is less and less of it…

…for as long as big business feels it’s economically unsound to fund or invest in technologies that can bring us alternative energy sources, eventhough that tide is shifting, when the time comes we desparately need it, it may be too late…

…the triumph of socialism is that it failed, and it’s people lived to see the alternative. Take away the restraints from the freemarket and capitalist enterprise and we’ll not be so lucky, be sure of that…

99

What Has Capitalism Done to Human Experience???

Rise of Capitalism 1700s - Earning money becomes righteous. New social Institution rises: Manufacturies.
-For the first time, Work is seperated from Life and Leisure. Once you punch your time card, you literally set aside your life, who you are, your family ect…

  1. Manufactory Owner’s best tool for profits: Alienation - set aside your identity, your boss controls body and mind of workers. WORK = LIFE STOPS; exploitation of living human beings.
    New Type of Men: focus on money, calculation, distrustful, indifferent of other men. Humans = A mechanism to extract profit.

  2. 2nd Best Tool for Profit: Division of Labor:
    -Scientific Management - Breaking down work into specialized task - Workers develop a very limited range of skills = workers are now easily replaceable. Instead of expressing their human abilities on the job, people are forced to deny their humanity to act as robots. People cannot express themselves in their work.

  • One dimensional, highly repetitive tasks; Humans become appendages to machines.
    -In absense of satisfaction and personal fulfillment, work becomes meaningless.

the 4 social classes we know today are formed -
Upper tier - high degree of personal autonomy, jobs offer variety, creativity and initiative.
middle - jobs are repetitive and mobility is limited.

Why Capitalists Love the Unemployed:
Unemployed are essential to the operation of the capitalist system because they put downward pressure on wages and provide a reserve labor force that can be drawn back into employment when profit and investment conditions require it. Workers fed up with unfulfillment and repetitive tasks or protest too hard are easily replaced from the reserve army of the unemployed.

100

[quote]spyoptic wrote:
What Has Capitalism Done to Human Experience???

Rise of Capitalism 1700s - Earning money becomes righteous. New social Institution rises: Manufacturies.
-For the first time, Work is seperated from Life and Leisure. Once you punch your time card, you literally set aside your life, who you are, your family ect…

  1. Manufactory Owner’s best tool for profits: Alienation - set aside your identity, your boss controls body and mind of workers. WORK = LIFE STOPS; exploitation of living human beings.
    New Type of Men: focus on money, calculation, distrustful, indifferent of other men. Humans = A mechanism to extract profit.

  2. 2nd Best Tool for Profit: Division of Labor:
    -Scientific Management - Breaking down work into specialized task - Workers develop a very limited range of skills = workers are now easily replaceable. Instead of expressing their human abilities on the job, people are forced to deny their humanity to act as robots. People cannot express themselves in their work.

  • One dimensional, highly repetitive tasks; Humans become appendages to machines.
    -In absense of satisfaction and personal fulfillment, work becomes meaningless.

the 4 social classes we know today are formed -
Upper tier - high degree of personal autonomy, jobs offer variety, creativity and initiative.
middle - jobs are repetitive and mobility is limited.

Why Capitalists Love the Unemployed:
Unemployed are essential to the operation of the capitalist system because they put downward pressure on wages and provide a reserve labor force that can be drawn back into employment when profit and investment conditions require it. Workers fed up with unfulfillment and repetitive tasks or protest too hard are easily replaced from the reserve army of the unemployed.[/quote]

Wow, where to start. First did you even watch that video w/ Stossel?

  1. This in no way was related to capitalism, oh wait serfdom was fun for everyone. Prior to the industrial revolution + enlightenment there was NO social mobility. Capitalism changed that. Men did not all of a sudden become dishonest etc, if that was the case then what do you call man prior to that? Honest…hardly, humane? right… really think about what you just said.

  2. Division of labor… do you like posting on T-Nation? I am sure you do. Well without division of labor you can forget that. Nobody forces anyone to learn a skillset or limited skillset. Furthermore it is more profitable for the business and the individual to specialize would you rather be trained by Charlie Francis or Bobby Bottleservice (PT). Work being meaningless is once again a choice. I can name many people that work 80+ hours a week and love it. If you find what you love, then division of labor is fantastic because you can focus on it and trade your abilities to someone specializing in another line of work. 4 social classes eh, now answer me this…what was the class structure prior to this? Oh Monarchs + cronies at the top serfs at the bottom. Small middle class of artisans who coincidently specialized in their field.

You use division of labor in your everyday life, how can you even argue its point.