Just reread this book by doctor Eugene Shippen and was wondering what others thought about his treatment practices. Everything he has wrote about makes a lot of sense. The one thats got me most curious is how he now likes to try treatment with just HCG and estrogen control until the testes can no longer be stimulated. I’m not sure this would work for me since I’ve been supplementing test for so long but who knows.
Also how Prolactin, Cortisol, and IGF-1 are important to maintain while on treatment. I’ve never even had these hormones brought up for concern. Does anybody else monitor these? Heading to see Dr. O at the end of the month I hope it’s worth the trip I’ve been trying to fix this for 10yrs now. Every doc in the local area say’s everything is normal now go home and I have not found level ground yet and Anti-aging companies are bad news from personal experience they have made things worse.
I’m just trying to freshen up my own knowledge for questions and wondering what others who have been on treatment for awhile think.
[quote]oscar31280 wrote:
Just reread this book by doctor Eugene Shippen and was wondering what others thought about his treatment practices. Everything he has wrote about makes a lot of sense. The one thats got me most curious is how he now likes to try treatment with just HCG and estrogen control until the testes can no longer be stimulated. I’m not sure this would work for me since I’ve been supplementing test for so long but who knows.
Also how Prolactin, Cortisol, and IGF-1 are important to maintain while on treatment. I’ve never even had these hormones brought up for concern. Does anybody else monitor these? Heading to see Dr. O at the end of the month I hope it’s worth the trip I’ve been trying to fix this for 10yrs now. Every doc in the local area say’s everything is normal now go home and I have not found level ground yet and Anti-aging companies are bad news from personal experience they have made things worse.
I’m just trying to freshen up my own knowledge for questions and wondering what others who have been on treatment for awhile think. [/quote]
If you do that to the testes till they no longer respond you really run the risk of them being permanently desensitized to LH. Then your own natural LH will not work very well either. You can permanently damage the testes. HCG is best used for 2 to 3 weeks.
Although i understand that everyone is different and all, but in this case im against that type of treatment. I see it as potentially damaging.
Thats interesting because I agree with them becoming desensitized, but so many treatments involve taking it EOD and if your on TRT its for life so is there really anyway around that.
[quote]oscar31280 wrote:
Thats interesting because I agree with them becoming desensitized, but so many treatments involve taking it EOD and if your on TRT its for life so is there really anyway around that.[/quote]
Many guys in the early years in the game found that they could almost permanently desensitize the testies with HCG. It backfires quickly for some and permanently for others. Bad bad bad.
I just can’t see the logic in abusing a body organ to the point of failure and non function as anything good for the sake of health and well being. Does not add up to me.
There are many ways to do this and i don’t feel this is ANY good. But we can discuss in more detail if you’d like.
Absolutely. So everything I have read you need to take HCG with TRT in order to keep your fertility which is very important to me because I don’t have kids yet. So is there another or better way. Also if your on TRT your LH will be shut down anyway. The way I’m thinking your getting at with the 2-3 wks would be cycling with the Test and then the HCG. Is this better than constant treatment? I’ve tried a lot of different things and haven’t found a perfect protocol yet. Please share your knowledge.
You can cruise on test and then blast with hcg for 3 weeks and take a break for an equal time. It takes about 3-12 weeks for sperm production to happen. If you permanently desensitize the leydig cell there will be no response from your leydig ever.
So cruise on trt and when you want to get someone pregnant THEN start playing with hcg in intervals. I would simultaneously reduce the test dosage to a level where it’s the least inhibitory to your hpta. Everyone has a threshold dosage.
a lot of people here are taking 200-250iu of HCG EOD or E3D. The idea is to try and mimic your natural levels of LH. If you start taking 500iu+ of HCG EOD then you start getting into the excess levels that can cause Leydig cell to desensitize.
HCG is needed to mimic LH. LH is needed to keep your testicles from shrinking and for keeping your natural T production working and for keeping your natural pregnenelone production working.
Someone with more experience will have to chime in, but from my research, I had not found anything that says that 250iu HCG EOD causes any long term problems. It is a simple maintenance dosage to keep the testicles functioning as normal as possible.
HRT is not cycling. This is a lifelong process. A steady maintenance program with steady T, E2, LH levels is ideal. On HRT you try to avoid starting and stopping or cycling products.
[quote]PureChance wrote:
a lot of people here are taking 200-250iu of HCG EOD or E3D. The idea is to try and mimic your natural levels of LH. If you start taking 500iu+ of HCG EOD then you start getting into the excess levels that can cause Leydig cell to desensitize.
HCG is needed to mimic LH. LH is needed to keep your testicles from shrinking and for keeping your natural T production working and for keeping your natural pregnenelone production working.
Someone with more experience will have to chime in, but from my research, I had not found anything that says that 250iu HCG EOD causes any long term problems. It is a simple maintenance dosage to keep the testicles functioning as normal as possible.
HRT is not cycling. This is a lifelong process. A steady maintenance program with steady T, E2, LH levels is ideal. On HRT you try to avoid starting and stopping or cycling products.[/quote]
Generally that’s true but guys on trt cycle in and out of dosages and other compounds. I would only recommend HCG in the most extreme testicular shrinkage cases. The HCG is not YOUR real LU hormone and causes it’s own negative feedback loop over time. I equal it to running on fumes.
just lets all keep in mind that TRT is different from doing it to get someone pregnant. To get someone pregnant you can have abysmally low test levels and STILL make enough sperm to do the deed. Be careful with HCG overall. Too many downsides to be used for any purpose other then stimulating a non responsive set of testicles that turned to raisins over time. In that state they won’t respond to even your own natural LU. So we use hcg to recover testicular mass and sensitivity to the pituitary’s own LU with a mimicking substance.
Using HCG long term to me is an exercise in futility. Not to mention it pumps up equally your test and estrogen. More guys i know ren high doses of test and only developed gyno during the pct while running hcg. The excess estrogen now calls for yet another ancillary medication and even in the best case scenario the new estrogen will work against your test levels. Basically i don’t like HCG for long term use.
I must have missed something in all of my research because I have never heard of anyone on HRT cycling in and out. Body builders on TRT cycle. People in need of HRT don’t cycle from what I have read, talked with others about, heard from other, and heard from doctors. HRT has nothing to do with building muscles.
The goal of HRT is to simply try and get the body back to baseline+. Why would you stop once you got your body back to normal? more muscles may be a side effect of your body working the way it should on HRT, but that should never be the goal of a true HRT program.
Based on my research, doctor visits, too many websites to many, and several research papers, I have not come across anything that says 250iu of HCG EOD is dangerous in any form or fashion. It is very possible that I have missed something, and if you have a site that has information to the contrary I would be very interested in learning about it. The guys that you talked to were they on a TRT cycle or were they on life long HRT due to otherwise low T levels?
HCG also maintains your testicles ability to produce pregnenelone. Without pregnenelone you have low Progesterone, low cortisol, and low DHEA.
You are not comparing apples to apples when you compare body building cycling and excessive use of T and HCG, etc. to a regular HRT program.
[quote]oscar31280 wrote:
Just reread this book by doctor Eugene Shippen and was wondering what others thought about his treatment practices. Everything he has wrote about makes a lot of sense. The one thats got me most curious is how he now likes to try treatment with just HCG and estrogen control until the testes can no longer be stimulated. I’m not sure this would work for me since I’ve been supplementing test for so long but who knows.
Also how Prolactin, Cortisol, and IGF-1 are important to maintain while on treatment. I’ve never even had these hormones brought up for concern. Does anybody else monitor these? Heading to see Dr. O at the end of the month I hope it’s worth the trip I’ve been trying to fix this for 10yrs now. Every doc in the local area say’s everything is normal now go home and I have not found level ground yet and Anti-aging companies are bad news from personal experience they have made things worse.
I’m just trying to freshen up my own knowledge for questions and wondering what others who have been on treatment for awhile think. [/quote]
For my hypogonadism, I always found it best to read ALMOST nothing and follow my doc’s orders.
There’s definitely a fine line between overeducation and ignorant bliss; one should at least know the basics and be able to call out a doctor’s BS. Sometimes a good doctor can see “the forest for the trees” where a patient has complicated the issue and self-diagnosed themselves due to absorbing message board material as Gospel and improper analysis of PubMed articles.
I like to use the boards as “clinical experience”; I.e., theory in practice.