I think Maxim babes, the new Geri Halliwell & Playboy models look fine (Penthouse, Swank & Hustler girls are better though). I used to be into all the fitness girls, but now I don’t know what I was thinking. I’m more into girls more like Veronica Zemanova. As for that equality shit, Brock’s 100% right. & where can a guy go for empowerment/etc.? Guys aren’t even allowed to be guys anymore. I saw ‘What Women Want’ w/Helen Hunt et al & barfed. It’s like women really want another woman.
I just skimmed through this thread quickly, and a thought came to my mind. If the Playboy girl is not ideal to most of you, what is? How much muscle do you guys like? I am smart enough to know that no man thinks Vickie Gates is hot, but there is a huge grey area between her and girls in Playboy. My main question is which of the following females has the physique you guys like: Kim Kanner (Mike Ryan’s gf), who seems to be drug free, and is still pretty soft, and “mainstream”. Or Bethany Howlett, King Kamali’s gf? Please ignore the fact that this girl has a really fake looking face, they must of had to recreate her as a female seeing she used to be huge. Anyway, which of these two physiques is more ideal? They both have websites, if you want to check them out.
I definitely give the nod to Kim Kanner in that comparisson. I think the more extreme look goes too far for me. What I’ve seen of this discussion really hasn’t taken into consideration the more extreme end of muscular development in women, but more into the comparisson of the “fitness model” type vs. the “fashion model” type. It seems to be the consensus here that the fitness model body type is more desireable than the waifish fashion model type.
You misunderstood me, michelle. I PERSONALLY consider a woman with > 15% bodyfat overweight – i.e. over the bodyfat percentage I consider ideal. Of course, 15% isn’t an absolute number, it varies.
Also, there are no health problems with the 12-15% range, nor with single-digit bodyfat percentages, unless you are into reproducing.
Joey Z,
Maybe the nature of my thread was misunderstood. The First names are the ladies I find attractive. Anna gives me california red wood! Jennifer Lopez is my fave but Anna’s fine. The spirit of my thread was in support of Mufasa’s post and the general notion that baby gotta have back! Kate Moss, Geri Halliwel (anorexic) and Calista Flockhart are nasty! Just wanted to clear that up.
Char-dawg and Zev, I’ve there are some points that I agree with both of you guys. Yes, I do agree that Japanese have taken on the American culture to extreme degrees. There are so many times, when at a lost for a Japanese word, all I had to do was pronounce an English word with a Japanese accent to be understood. But, I disagree that Japanese association of beauty and thinness/smallness is Western influenced. There are references in the Manyoushu (circa 6th century?) where smallness was equated with beauty. The Japanese seem obsessed with things that are “kawai” (cute), and anything that is miniaturized seems to qualify. All the Japanese girls think that Amuro Namie (the Okinawan singing sensation) is so cute because she has a “small face” and so many girls covered their cheeks with aluminum foil in hopes of making their faces small.
I think individual concept of beauty can change over a lifetime, even if not influenced by culture. When I was visiting my cousin in Korea, two girls renting a room from him visited. After they left, he asked me who I liked better. I said the thin one. He said that he liked the bigger girl better, describing how she looked with a word that roughly translates as, "lucky," "fortunate," or "prosperous." He is 45 and I was 25 at the time. Six years later, I seem to prefer fuller bodies. Maybe when I was younger, I just wanted a frisky sexual partner, but now that I'm older, I think I prefer a woman who can bear my children.
Mike the Lib, I think female health issues associated with low bodyfat go beyond just reproduction. It can lead to bone thinning and early onset of osteoporosis.
Okay, Zev, I have to apologize. You definitely know your onions when it comes to Acient Middle Eastern cultures, and you are far better versed in that field than I. Mea culpa. Although I’ve read a bit in the field, I didn’t know half of what you said about Nefertiti etc.; thanks for educating me!
About Japan, however, you've got the wrong idea. There's far too much to go into here on this thread, but let me just say that unless you've spent a lot of time here AND learned the language to a very high degree of fluency AND had a long-term (i.e. at least three years) relationship with a Japanese person, you're a priori not going to know what you're talking about vis-a-vis this country. This isn't anything personal directed toward you, but a general observation. I know of very few feminist scholars who fulfill those requirements (but maybe you know of some). Yes, the society here is "patriarchal" from a western viewpoint, but there's a lot more that most western sociologists never bother to look at.
For example, overwhelmingly, men are the ones with the good jobs here. They’re the managers, presidents, white collar workers, etc. Women are almost never seen in these positions. So, bad, right? But consider this: virtually every Japanese man, from the president of the company on down to the guy in the mailroom, takes his paycheck home at the end of the month and hands it over, IN ITS ENTIRETY, to his wife. He then (humbly) asks her for his allowance for that month. Does this sound like the WOMEN are subjugated to you? Sounds more like the men are slaves to me. If it were me, I can tell you that if I had some high-powered exec woman working day and night to bring me home a paycheck, I wouldn’t complain. But somehow 
this fact never shows up in western commentaries on this society.
There's much more here, but my original point still stands. You shouldn't be making sweeping statements like the one in your original post, because even ONE counter-example makes you wrong, and it also makes you sound like a PC zealot who's more interested in screaming slogans than engaging in any sort of real informed debate. (The reason that I, personally, am "anti-PC" is that I found very little of academic worth in the movement while I was at university.) I can see from your responses here so far that you're definitely not the former, so why act like it?
What about the shifting concept of men. Girls used to like T-Men, now I find the general population likes the lean skinny type (5’10 120ish). The kind of kids who always work out on machines if at all.
Patty - I think you have a good point. My ex was built like a truck (mmmmmmm) and I had a friend or two comment ‘Isn’t he kinda big?’ Don’t get the wrong idea, his bulk was ALL muscle - not fat. Personally, with the amount of time I spend in the gym, I barely look at a guy who isn’t built, hell, if I can bench his body weight he just isn’t for me! grin I think the ‘most popular’ body type for men (currently, according to women) is muscular but small and defined, not big and bulky.
Mike, let me first qualify this by saying that a woman with 15% BF is perfectly fine. However with many women, getting into low teens to single digits in BF, their endocrine systems get all thrown out of whack and they start missing periods and have a host of other problems that I don’t know enough about to expound upon in this here forum. Ladies, straighten me out if I’m wrong. Peace.
The whopper two cents…I always have liked them small (under 5’5") and either athletic or average…however skinny does have some appeal at times. For me…it is SUCH a mental thing. My first wife was a Miss NJ finalist…absolutely breathtaking on the outside…and one of the ugliest women on the inside I have ever met. I have dated girls that to everyone else…looked “average” but they had something to them…a mischeviousness, an attitude, a sexuality…that turned me on more than any drop dead gorgeous girl. The truth of the matter is that 75% of sex is mental…and I will take an “average girl…with a good body” who is fun, keeps me guessing, playful, and very sexual, over some cover girl chick who is cold, and feels like just because they “blessed you” allowing you to have their body…it is enough. It is nice to go to a resturaunt and have some gorgeous hottie that everyone is looking at on your arm…but it is far better to have a nice looking girl with you…who after you order…locks eyes with you and tells you…“Tonight, after dinner…I am having YOU for dessert!!” It kinda makes you forget all about dinner…and have this urge to go “CHECK PLEASE!!”
Hey Zev…come on out of the ivory tower, buddy!!! I like statistics too…did you know
that 100% of people who eat carrots die and
that a study of juvenile delinquents showed
that in the last 2 months 95% of them ate
carrots. So carrots cause juvenile delinquency
and death, right?
5% of CEO's may be women but women have made incredible strides in medical schools and law schools and business schools. Close to 1/2 of all small businesses are owned by women, Ace.
And yes, I have talked to many a "Women's Study" prof and all, without a single exception, are damaged psychologically and hate men for some reason or another.
They don’t call them “man hating dykes”
for no reason, Zev.
Ever wonder why there is no "Men's Study" Programs? Because feminazi's would bitch to high hell...feminists don't want equality (as if that were ever possible anyhow) they want domination and advantage.
Equality is asymptotical and can never
be reached. Sorry, some of us are smarter,
more athletic, live longer, whatever.
Unless you’re prepared to have the gov’t.,
come into your home and genetically engineer
your offspring so “all human offspring
are the same” there will never be equality.
And if there were, what a boring place the world would be.
Women are not nearly as effective as men are in combat and a lot of guys in the service resent it...because the service "lowers" its standards to accomodate women.
Men are not nearly as good when it comes
to nurturing children as women are.
There are exceptions to every situation and I would never discourage a woman from trying to be a Ranger or a man from going into child care but I would discourage us from changing the paradigms to accomodate these people.
Make it or not…not accomadation.
Would you agree that a retarded kid with an IQ of 80 has no business being in medical school? Would you make medical school so easy so this kid could attend? Would you honestly see him as your physician?
We are not equal…we never were and never
will be.
Brock
Yes!!! Thank you Brock!
I think the concept Of beauty shifts not only with age, but also with the number of beers you’ve had and how late in the evening it’s gotten.
I read somewhere that women are more apt to look for a more muscular mate close to the time of ovalation… it’s an instinctive thing to help guarentee survival of the fittest.
I just spotted the ovalation/huge mofo connection in TC’s editorial as well. I tell ya… nothing escapes that guy.
Any scientist (and I’m sure many of you) would agree that a few responses on an Internet Forum would not be sufficient and or valid enough data to arrive at any true scientific conclusions. However, with that being said, I do feel that within the context of our extremely unique (and diverse) SUB-culture (i.e. “fitness enthusiast”, “bodybuilders”, “muscleheads”, “attheletes”, “Strength and Conditioning Adherents”, “powerlifters” etc. etc.), within the sphere of the much larger “Western Cultural Influence”, some very interesting observations have come accross in all of our responses.
1)TO MEN: Two interesting things. It appeares that within our sub-culture, men’s concepts of what constitutes PHYSICAL beauty in a woman HAS changed. However, it begs the question: if we had not been ingrained with the images of this muscle sub-culture, would those concepts have changed? In other words; if I had never seen of even heard of the beauty of Rachael, Cory, Anja, Theresa, Monica, Amy or Timea, would my own personal concepts have changed? Or would the centerfold still be the “ideal?” Interestingly, for the men, their PERSONAL ideals (i.e. the “look” they want for themselves) has changed little over time, myself included. 2)TO WOMEN: Your physical ideals for a man (at least in our limited sample) have appeared to stay pretty steady. And it seems like that “ideal” is more shaped by how you see yourself AND how you see yourself in relation to another man. Again…I’m no sociologist OR scientist, so I have no idea why this is a difference; but it seems to show up in both threads. Now…some would argue "what about those guys who said they like to “walk in a place with a hottie on his arms? Isn’t HE defining a concept of beauty based on his relationship with another person?” Not really. What he REALLY is doing is defining what he thinks may be “hot” TO HIS PEER GROUP, independent of his personal preferences. So…he may bring the runway model to the Company Party but really wished he was somewhere doing Ham Curls and drinking “Advanced Protein Daiquiris” with Timea Morojova on some deserted Hawaiian beach…
SOME THOUGHTS ON CERTAIN RESPONSES TO THE TWO THREADS: TO BRIDER (who said): “But I think in your case (and mine, and many others I suspect), it’s more a case of what’s important to you being projected into the object of your desire.” I agree 300%. You see it everyday. If you think Cowboys are HOT, and you want one, you most likely will NOT like big butts, doo-rags, floppy pants, rap and Hip-Hop Clubs. You’ll probably want bigger hair, different make-up styles, wear tight Levis and try to keep yout butt as skinny as possible, go to Country Music Clubs, wear Cowboy Hats and listen to Shania and “The Chicks”. TO HETYEY225 (who said):“I have never worried to much about the “ideal man” look. I just want to look like how I want to look.” I think I would agree with this. HOWEVER, “man is not an island”; even some survivalist in the mountains of Idaho is influenced by SOMETHING, so certainly the rest of us are. We usually want to “look like” some ideal in our mind, and that USUALLY is the look of not neccessarily an “ideal person”, but another person nontheless. TO DOZER (who said): “From the moment I picked up a weight I knew how I wanted to look, that image has never changed…nor will it; because the image in my mind is the look I desire…not societies, not my girlfriends, not my families.” UUMMmmmm…again…“no man is an island”. This reminds me of the discussions we had last week when some stated that they don’t set goals and that goal setting was far too limiting. I stongly disagreed…and would have to wonder if what Dozer stated is even possible. In other words…a physical image for ourselves (or others) that is somehow pure, spontaneous and independent of any external image or influence. I don’t know about that, Dozer…that would be hard… Well…those are my thoughts…I hope you guys will share some more…taking a close look at MYSELF has been great…
Hey Brock,
I was listening to this professor on the radio about 6 months ago who’s contract was not renewed. Wanna guess why?
He started a “men’s studies” course at Mcgill University(or Concordia, I honestly dont remmeber but it was in Montreal) and all the moaning and bitching that he started this course pretty much cost him his job.
I am in agreement that the femi-nazi’s don’t want equality at all, unless it suits thier agenda.