Okay, I’ve gotta jump in here. Three major points:
Mufasa, good topic, dude. I’ve had a life experience that maybe not too many on the forum have had - I’ve made a more-or-less permanent move to a completely different country/culture, and it has definitely changed my perceptions about what’s attractive. When I first got to Japan, I didn’t like the way the women looked at all. Bad teeth, no butt, too short… the whole constellation of bad-stereotype stuff. Now, after almost a decade here, there are very few western women that I see who I think are attractive. Even the high school girls who visit the Peace Park here are pasty, doughy, sloppy and just too damn BIG for my (new) tastes. But when I was in the States, well, this old lech would drive by and fantasize, lemme tell you. So I think that a lot of what we consider to be “natural” is very much socially conditioned, and you never really know just how much so until you get out of your social context and see things from a new, outside perspective.
To Michelle: DOn't worry. MOST guys will go for overweight as opposed to underweight, if that's the choice. I know I do.
To Zev: Dude, c'mon. The main beef I have with PC types - much more than any difference in political position - is their tendency to make sweeping statements like "Our society (that is, modern western society) is the only society in the history of the world where skinny women have been considered attractive". Oh please. Have you catalogued EVERY society in the history of the world? Of course not. What was the ideal in Lower Hittite culture? Can you say with any authority? I seriously doubt it. Some counter-examples off the top of my head: Nefertiti was pretty slim, (to judge from her neck), and she was considered the epitome of ancient Egyptian beauty. And I can tell you that modern Japanese women are FAR more concerned with being skinny than anyone in the West. I don't mean to be harsh, but let's face it, Camille Paglia's assertion that most "feminist scholars" are poorly trained (in the sense of not knowing much beyond their own, VERY narrowly defined, sub-sub-sub-field) is lethally accurate. "...the only society in the history of the world..." - HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Woooo hoo hoo! Heh heh. Sniff. Ahhh...
I stand by my sweeping statement. You really shouldn’t call people out unless you know where they’re coming from. I have, in fact, studied the anthropological record extensively, and I can tell you the following:
Hittite culture, like all Ancient near-Eastern cultures, idealized full-figured women because of the fertility such figures represented.
I’ve actually taught a course on Ancient Egyptian history. Nefertiti was the wife of Akhenaten, who ushered in the short-lived Amarna period. All depictions of the royal family from this period (including all those on which you base your claim of her beauty) are unusual in that all members of the royal family are depicted with elongated limbs, bulbous heads, and (even on Nefertiti) little pot bellies. Some archaeologists have interpreted these depictions as indicating Crohn’s disease in the royal family as a result of inbreeding. Nefertiti’s facial beauty was considered sublime, but her strangely modern body proportions as depicted in art from the period were a short-lived exercise in realism, which was considered unattractive (just like today), and not indicative of a widespread idealization of thinness. The royal artistic conventions that preceeded Nefertiti, in which queens were depicted as more full-figured, returned almost immediatley after Nefertiti and her husband died. Why was the queen only shown as skinny for a short time in Egyptian history (and even then, she was always depicted with a pot belly)? Because skinny was generally considered unattractive.
I’ve not lived in Japan so I have to defer to your judgment to some extent, but I would argue that Japanese women desire to be skinny because of western cultural influence. More so than most non-American cultures, the Japanese have really internalized American visual ideals. Eating disorders have risen tremendously in Japan ever since American media began making inroads there. But even before the Japanese began fetishizing thinness, they valued slightness in women. The reason? PC jargon alert Anti-female bias. Certainly you would agree that Japan is and always has been a very patriarchal culture, yes? Well, I would argue that for the same harmful reasons American women feel the need to be skinny, Japanese women have historically felt the need to be slight. The more inroads American culture makes into Japanese culture, however, the more Japanese women idealize not only slightness but skinniness as well.
Look, I’m really not trying to sound like a know-it-all. This just happens to be one area I’ve studied a lot.
Gotta throw in: Mufasa thanks for the thread, I’ve made the same observation of my own…“desires.” Michelle - be real, most dudes like some meat to hang on to (the undercurve of a breast, a nice separation between the glutes and shaped hams,…ahem, sorry…I’m back). And for the crass guys there, I’ve gotta share an old saying from a buddy of mine from the carousing days : every woman looks good with your d**k in her mouth. LOL! Sure, flame me, but I’m just funnin’ Peace out.
Dear Wolf (Zev) - I see the local lesbia…
“women’s studies department” at your university
has misguided you. Look, men and women are
never going to be equal. When she can get
me pregnant and I can deliver we will be
equal. We all have our roles to play. Women
today have some pretty unfair advantages
over men to make up for “past injustices”. I could surely argue that this pandemic
victim mentality has been a direct cause of
the rampant ethical decay and fraying of the
moral fiber of Western society (hey, it ain’t
my fault I did X…I was abused as a child,
my mom was an alcoholic, I grew up in a
low income urban area, ).
Women are not subjugated in this society
anymore bud. Look at law and medical
school admissions, look at the number of
female execs and small business owners.
Playing the “sexism” card (much like the
venerable “race” card) is the bastion of
liberal generalizationism. It’s used all to
often to “refute” critical argument and
logical discourse (oh, he is just a sexist
pig…he may be, but he may also have a valid
point that is missed because when the
sexism generalization is made we tend to
ignore any statements made after that)…ad
hominem attacks and straw man arguments
that sound catchy and trendy come crawling
out of the wood work.
You can't blame men entirely for the "new
look" of women even if it is easy and
convenient to do so. Because it is not
solely men's doing. You also forget that if
"Fat was Cool" that some women would be
thin and society would complain that "men
are subjugating women by making them
comform to their standards of beauty even if
it means that have to eat unhealthy amounts
of Twinkees and Pork Rinds".
Some people just like to bitch and blame others
for their own shortcomings.
Me? I like free will and personal accountability a whole lot more.
some muscle I can deal with, but if a woman doesn’t have a big, round, heart shaped ass I’m not interested. marilyn was slamming, j-lo has a great ass but her grill is broke. trina in incredible, beonce is near perfection (she even has a little soft spot at the bottom of her belly, she still needs to gain a couple of pounds though). has society changed? yea some of it has but go to north jersey, if a girl ain’t got back she’s out. I think alot of guys that are realy into the skinny/model look are realy looking for 10yr old boys but they can’t come to terms with it. all this shit is one reason why I love women of color, the same outfit that a white chick will not buy because it makes her look fat, a black chick won’t buy because it makes their ass look too small. gotta love that!! like I said BIG, ROUND AND HEART SHAPED, AAHHHHHHH I’M IN HEAVEN!! peace. Oh, one thing about the PC thing, women have been treated like shit in this country for tooooo long to just say “don’t blame me for what happend years ago”. gee they cam vote and work now, BIG DEAL. we set up a system then say “we’ll let you guys play now” and we act like that makes everything better, we slam them, then say “we are only jokeing”, we now think its nobel to be anti-PC, and I am not a big fan of all thats considered PC, but we are hatefull and mean then we just say “we’re just guys” hell I’d be a lesbian, peace again
Here’s my honest take. It doesn’t have so much to do with beauty as career. I think it has certainly effected the way I keep my body. I was about 110 throughout my 20’s at the beginning of my career. Now, I’m 145 and pretty happy. Because of my fairly advanced management position now, I feel it complements my position’s “substance and weight”. Although I am not fat or that big by any means (mostly size 10’s, a FEW 12’s), I definately wouldn’t want to be 110 again. How can people who work for me take me seriously if I’m a waif? I know I can’t take tiny skinny women that seriously, there’s no substance. I have to stand up to a lot of people at work (mostly men) and I don’t want to do it at 110. It just won’t fit my persona. About twice a year, I’ll pull out my string bikini and wish I was maybe 120…FOR THE DAY. LOL.
Mike - f.y.i. - for a woman 15% bodyfat is not overweight. Women need between 10 and 12% minimum for normal reproductive health. ‘Essential fat’ levels for men and women are very different. Even very thin women and elite athletes rarely get very far into the single digits, and when they do they often have health problems.
One interesting thing that I’ve experienced is that I think men are more accepting of different sized women than woman are towards EACH OTHER!
Some of the most cruel and harsh judgements towards other womens’ appearances often comes from other women.
I can’t remember how many times, I’ve sat with a woman who would “scan” the room and point out women that just didn’t stack up. “I can’t believe she’s wearing that,” “ohhhhh somebody has serious cellulite problems,” etc. etc.
Naturally all women don’t do this, but for those who do, it’s clearly an indication of low self esteem. Those who are comfortable with themselves don’t need to put others down to build themselves up. Granted, many men do this too, but it just seems that percentage of women that do it to each other is much much higher.
When I was in college I once took a girl to dinner who picked at her food and pouted all evening. She was a real stunner (and she knew it), and got looks wherever she went. Needless to say, she had toohpick arms and NO legs or ass. I eventually left her for a girl who ate like a horse and had CURVES. Not fat, but really shapely and athletic. Now, I didn’t leave the skinny girl because of her body, but because of her attitude. She was too uptight to even enjoy her food once in a while. The lady I dated soon after was a catch. She would show up to dinner dates in jeans, a T-shirt, and a baseball cap, swore like a sailor, and insisted that we split a pitcher of beer over 12 oz. burgers on our first date. Guess which of these two most guys would rather date?
That ‘shifting concept of beauty’ works both ways. 10 years ago it was only us gay guys that ever seemed to worry about attaing six pack abs and muscular bodies. Now the gym is FILLED with straight guys (young and middle-aged) running around checking out each others abs, etc. Kind of funny. Guys talk about body fat percentages and shaving their chests…just wasn’t around until that infamous Calvin Klein board. I say the the ladies are finally getting their payback.
I see that you’ve been dating one of my exes. How is she? She’s quite a catch, huh? And don’t forget, great in bed!!! Demo Dick said, “She would show up to dinner dates in jeans, a T-shirt, and a baseball cap, swore like a sailor, and insisted that we split a pitcher of beer over 12 oz. burgers on our first date.”
Brock - first of all, I want to preface this response by saying that I’m extremely grateful for all you do for T-Mag readers. I know that I’ve benefitted tremendously from your willingness to share your knowledge of all things physique-enhancing. That said, however, I have to disagree with much of what you posted in this thread. First of all, why do you feel the need to take a cheap shot at Women’s Studies Departments by implying that they’re all full of lesbians, as though it would be a self-evident knock against them if they were? Have you ever taken a women’s studies course or gotten to know (not just embraced stereotypes of) real women’s studies professors? Until you have, I don’t think you should disparage them. I think it’s sad that to you, calling someone a lesbian is an insult…
Anyway, the argument you make about women and men’s physical differences implying that social equality is undesirable is terribly flawed. In fact, it is the exact argument that Anthony Weston uses in his “A Rulebook for Arguments” to illustrate “the fallacy of equivocation”. So what if men and women are physically different? Does that imply that as a society we should not strive to treat everyone equally? Because using the same argument, colored and handicapped people should have different rights than you because they’re physically different. Or are gender differences more “essential” than these other kinds of physical differences and therefore legitimate sources of differentiation? What about extremely feminine men or extremely masculine women? What about transgendered or transsexual people? With which gender should they be equated for social purposes? Do you see my point? Discriminating (not in the pejorative sense) on the basis of physical differences is a slippery slope, one with which we should all be uncomfortable if we consider the implications carefully.
Moving on, I do not blame men for the state of women in our culture. I blame everyone equally. Women are absolutely complicit in their own (for lack of a better term) undervaluation. I would argue that the economic and social structure of America very much depend on women being kept in their place, so economic and social institutions do the harmful work as much as any individual man or woman does. For example, do you have any idea how much money would be lost if women stopped obsessing about their appearances? Billions and billions would be lost by the cosmetics, diet, and plastic surgery industries alone. Obviously, these groups (among others) have a major stake in convincing women that they should feel inadequate based on their appearances.
For you to look at med and law school acceptance rates and call that proof of a level playing field is a bit disingenuous. Fewer than 5% of CEO’s are women. I find that a much more telling stat. The reason? Even though women have the same opportunities for advancement as men these days, they have the additional burden of having to maintain their “femininity” while doing all the things that men have to do to get ahead. Look, I don’t think that our society is overtly sexist (though many people in it are) or that it “oppresses” women -I do think, however, that there are extremely harmful standards, unspoken but recognized and internalized nevertheless, that severely undermine and handicap almost all women. There are very few women who are truly happy with their bodies, and this unhappiness translates into unhappiness with themselves. That’s fucked up. That’s all I’m trying to say.
Hetyey: J-Lo’s grill is broke? That is fucking funny, but she is still hot, no?
Zev: Are you a homosexual? Seriously, have you every had sex with a women, or at least held one in your arms? They are not men for fuck’s sake, they are women. They are women because they have different genes, not because they like to put on makeup and put useless trinkets around the house. Individuals are responsible for their own actions, society is just a bunch of individuals (some can steal your money and kill you legally in ours, however). More than about 5 people cannot even decide what to put on a fucking pizza, do you really think that “Society” is conspiring (all the heterosexual, football, big block engine loving men get together to control the women that we spend every waking moment trying to impress) to subjigate women? If a relativist lesbian told you that black was white or that one plus one was a patriarchial construct hell bent on hurting women, would you think about it at all, or just march in a Million Mom parade with a sign saying you hate yourself because you were born with a dick?
Ahhh yes, I remember those good ole days. She is great. Ask her to tell you about the time we were in the car and a cop showed up!! Oh yes, many good times. And you have to love that mouth of hers…nothing like a girl who can swear like a sailor!
Consider this…Britney Spears or Calista Flockhart…Angelina Jolie (Tomb Raider) or the anorexic version of Geri Halliwell…Anna Kournikova or Kate Moss…JENNIFER LOPEZ or any waif supermodel…'Nuff said!
Are women discriminated against? Sure, but so are fat people, skinny people, ugly people, pretty people, tall ones, short ones, and so on. Point being, where I go in life will have little to do with how I’m discriminated against because I won’t let it. I’ll do whatever it takes to get to where I want to be and if a door gets slammed in my face at one place, I’ll find another. It would be a waste of my time to moan and groan about it all. There are just too many bandwagons to jump on these days.
Sorry, Bigrob, but Anna Kournikova gives me a “Wicked Stiffy!”
I would like to take a pair of her tennis undies, cut out two eye
holes, put them over my head, and play the part of the masked
grappler in the “WWF!”…(Joey Z.)