The Sadness of Welfare

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
If I had my own school system, these would be mandatory(not in any order of importance)

  • Life skills course, which would include(but not limited to): CPR, first aid, food handlers course(now everyone is qualified for a job), changing a flat tire, swimming, nutrition, keyboard/computer/internet skills, financial management/basic accounting
  • Self-defense/martial arts
  • Sciences, chem, bio, physics, etc
  • Basic shop/trades, ie some mechanical, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, painting, etc
  • Law and Politics(I think these two go hand-in-hand, right?)
  • History, social science, geography, learn about your country and the rest of the world
  • Phys. Ed., nutrition could also be addressed here if life skills got too big
  • Foreign languages would be elective(if there’s room) and/or extracurricular
  • Art would be extracurricular just like sports teams

Criticisms? alterations?[/quote]

You have to have some type of ethics teaching.

222

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
If I had my own school system, these would be mandatory(not in any order of importance)

  • Life skills course, which would include(but not limited to): CPR, first aid, food handlers course(now everyone is qualified for a job), changing a flat tire, swimming, nutrition, keyboard/computer/internet skills, financial management/basic accounting
  • Self-defense/martial arts
  • Sciences, chem, bio, physics, etc
  • Basic shop/trades, ie some mechanical, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, painting, etc
  • Law and Politics(I think these two go hand-in-hand, right?)
  • History, social science, geography, learn about your country and the rest of the world
  • Phys. Ed., nutrition could also be addressed here if life skills got too big
  • Foreign languages would be elective(if there’s room) and/or extracurricular
  • Art would be extracurricular just like sports teams

Criticisms? alterations?[/quote]

You have to have some type of ethics teaching.[/quote]

Can you be more specific? Ethics regarding…?
Are we talking like the "Golden Rule’?

223

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
If I had my own school system, these would be mandatory(not in any order of importance)

  • Life skills course, which would include(but not limited to): CPR, first aid, food handlers course(now everyone is qualified for a job), changing a flat tire, swimming, nutrition, keyboard/computer/internet skills, financial management/basic accounting
  • Self-defense/martial arts
  • Sciences, chem, bio, physics, etc
  • Basic shop/trades, ie some mechanical, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, painting, etc
  • Law and Politics(I think these two go hand-in-hand, right?)
  • History, social science, geography, learn about your country and the rest of the world
  • Phys. Ed., nutrition could also be addressed here if life skills got too big
  • Foreign languages would be elective(if there’s room) and/or extracurricular
  • Art would be extracurricular just like sports teams

Criticisms? alterations?[/quote]

You have to have some type of ethics teaching.[/quote]

Can you be more specific? Ethics regarding…?
Are we talking like the "Golden Rule’?

[/quote]
Maybe I should have said “character development”. I used to teach. Kids don’t see anything wrong with cheating, stealing, fucking around. There are some good programs out there already like:

http://charactercounts.org/resources/index.html

224

Ok, how to be morally upright.
I like some taoist books for this. The way and its power.

225

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You miss my point. No matter what they do, Mal is going to judge them badly and say they should have done the other thing.[/quote]

Show me where I started judging people for working minimum wage. I was pointing out to the other poster that if NOBODY – really, truly no one – would work a certain, shitty job, then that job would either cease to exist or it would pay more until it became more desirable. Do you disagree?[/quote]

And you also said that people without jobs should work those shitty jobs. So, according to you, they should work for minimum wage, but its their own fault they get paid minimum wage.

Simple question: If someone is unemployed and offered a minimum wage, shit job, should they take it?

If yes, don’t throw up arguments about how “Well, if no one took the job the employer would pay more”

If no, don’t say they’re lazy for not taking it.

226

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
If I had my own school system, these would be mandatory(not in any order of importance)

  • Life skills course, which would include(but not limited to): CPR, first aid, food handlers course(now everyone is qualified for a job), changing a flat tire, swimming, nutrition, keyboard/computer/internet skills, financial management/basic accounting
  • Self-defense/martial arts
  • Sciences, chem, bio, physics, etc
  • Basic shop/trades, ie some mechanical, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, painting, etc
  • Law and Politics(I think these two go hand-in-hand, right?)
  • History, social science, geography, learn about your country and the rest of the world
  • Phys. Ed., nutrition could also be addressed here if life skills got too big
  • Foreign languages would be elective(if there’s room) and/or extracurricular
  • Art would be extracurricular just like sports teams

Criticisms? alterations?[/quote]

You have to have some type of ethics teaching.[/quote]

Can you be more specific? Ethics regarding…?
Are we talking like the "Golden Rule’?

[/quote]
Maybe I should have said “character development”. I used to teach. Kids don’t see anything wrong with cheating, stealing, fucking around. There are some good programs out there already like:

http://www.amazon.com/Habits-Highly-Effective-Teens/dp/0684856093

http://charactercounts.org/resources/index.html[/quote]

Athletics go a long way, with the right coaching, towards character developmant IMHO. I can still think back to what my wrestling and football caoches would drill into me, two of which were; “hard work pays off” and “you can’t wait for good things to happen, you have to go out and MAKE good things happen”. Also, I can remember one of my coaches saying “cheating makes you a damned loser, whether you win or not; and honest competition makes you a winner whether you win or not”

227

You guys keep harping about how an individual can become successful in America. I’ve never said an individual can’t.

The problem is, not everyone can be successful. And, more importantly the success of one person comes at the lack of success of many others.

The CEO of the company who “pulls his weight” only makes that six or seven figure salary because so many people work for minimum or near minimum wage. Without them, without the work they do, he would make exactly 0 dollars and 0 cents.

All the problems you guys complain about are a direct result of this system.

228

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You miss my point. No matter what they do, Mal is going to judge them badly and say they should have done the other thing.[/quote]

Show me where I started judging people for working minimum wage. I was pointing out to the other poster that if NOBODY – really, truly no one – would work a certain, shitty job, then that job would either cease to exist or it would pay more until it became more desirable. Do you disagree?[/quote]

And you also said that people without jobs should work those shitty jobs. So, according to you, they should work for minimum wage, but its their own fault they get paid minimum wage.

Simple question: If someone is unemployed and offered a minimum wage, shit job, should they take it?

If yes, don’t throw up arguments about how “Well, if no one took the job the employer would pay more”

If no, don’t say they’re lazy for not taking it.[/quote]

What’s so hard to understand here? You make your own worth. If you don’t have a job currently or maybe previous experience then your leverage is low. If you have a job you can use that leverage. Pay me more or I’m not leaving type of stuff. If you just happen to lose your job for whatever reason, you have some experience and likely be hired somewhere b/c of it. Now, if you show up looking like a bum, no real experience, no signs that you’re trying to build yourself up then you only have yourself to blame. People aren’t motivated today and that’s why we are falling behind. Whatever happened to good ole hard work to achieve the american dream?

229

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You guys keep harping about how an individual can become successful in America. I’ve never said an individual can’t.

The problem is, not everyone can be successful. And, more importantly the success of one person comes at the lack of success of many others.

The CEO of the company who “pulls his weight” only makes that six or seven figure salary because so many people work for minimum or near minimum wage. Without them, without the work they do, he would make exactly 0 dollars and 0 cents.

All the problems you guys complain about are a direct result of this system. [/quote]

Those people working for minimum wage are easily replaceable and have no leverage. That’s why they get the minimum. If they want to leave fine. Somebody will take their job and be happy to be working. I think some of the pay people receive is ridiculous, but the market determines that. If they weren’t worth it, they wouldn’t receive it.

230

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You miss my point. No matter what they do, Mal is going to judge them badly and say they should have done the other thing.[/quote]

Show me where I started judging people for working minimum wage. I was pointing out to the other poster that if NOBODY – really, truly no one – would work a certain, shitty job, then that job would either cease to exist or it would pay more until it became more desirable. Do you disagree?[/quote]

And you also said that people without jobs should work those shitty jobs. So, according to you, they should work for minimum wage, but its their own fault they get paid minimum wage.

Simple question: If someone is unemployed and offered a minimum wage, shit job, should they take it?

If yes, don’t throw up arguments about how “Well, if no one took the job the employer would pay more”

If no, don’t say they’re lazy for not taking it.[/quote]

OK, I just went and re-read everything I posted here, so either I’m being unclear (very possible) and you’re misunderstanding me or you’re twisting what I’m saying and putting words in my mouth.

I’ve never called anyone lazy in the thread. I haven’t even used the word lazy. I also never said where people should work or how much they should work for. I did say people should live within their means.

So the answer to you question is: It depends. It depends on a lot of things. You’re just throwing out a very generic situation. I have no idea what the person should do. Would this be the individual’s first job? Does this person have marketable skills? And, most importantly, does this person want this job?

231

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You miss my point. No matter what they do, Mal is going to judge them badly and say they should have done the other thing.[/quote]

Show me where I started judging people for working minimum wage. I was pointing out to the other poster that if NOBODY – really, truly no one – would work a certain, shitty job, then that job would either cease to exist or it would pay more until it became more desirable. Do you disagree?[/quote]

And you also said that people without jobs should work those shitty jobs. So, according to you, they should work for minimum wage, but its their own fault they get paid minimum wage.

Simple question: If someone is unemployed and offered a minimum wage, shit job, should they take it?

If yes, don’t throw up arguments about how “Well, if no one took the job the employer would pay more”

If no, don’t say they’re lazy for not taking it.[/quote]

OK, I just went and re-read everything I posted here, so either I’m being unclear (very possible) and you’re misunderstanding me or you’re twisting what I’m saying and putting words in my mouth.

I’ve never called anyone lazy in the thread. I haven’t even used the word lazy. I also never said where people should work or how much they should work for. I did say people should live within their means.

So the answer to you question is: It depends. It depends on a lot of things. You’re just throwing out a very generic situation. I have no idea what the person should do. Would this be the individual’s first job? Does this person have marketable skills? And, most importantly, does this person want this job?[/quote]

You repeatedly stated that if no one worked at shitty low paying jobs, the jobs would pay more. This means that the people working the jobs are to blame for their low income, or that they should refuse the job until it pays more. This is entirely out of touch with reality because it requires that everyone, all at once, agree not to take shitty jobs for low pay (absolutely impossible).

232

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You repeatedly stated that if no one worked at shitty low paying jobs, the jobs would pay more. This means that the people working the jobs are to blame for their low income, or that they should refuse the job until it pays more. This is entirely out of touch with reality because it requires that everyone, all at once, agree not to take shitty jobs for low pay (absolutely impossible).

[/quote]

I agree. I never said it was possible. The only reason I even said this in the first place was because the other poster asked what would happen if NOBODY worked the shitty jobs. He even capitalized NOBODY, so I assumed he truly meant if not a single person would work those jobs. So, I told him what would happen.

Don’t you agree, if NOBODY, not a single person, agreed to work a shitty job it would either disappear or pay more?

233

I’m not saying its morally right that someone says “Work a shitty job for no money for years, and not do anything fun, so somebody else can get rich? Fuck that, I’ll take welfare.” I’m not saying they should take welfare, or that its ok for them to choose not to work. I’m saying I see the cause and effect, and that their decision is the effect, and the conditions of so many jobs are the cause.

Paying workers more is a good idea. Moving away from the nuclear family and more to the extended family is a good idea (bigger houses with more people = less cost of living). Realizing that virtually all data shows that excess wealth doesn’t equate to excess happiness is a good idea.

I know, I know, crazy nonsense.

234

[quote]malonetd wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You repeatedly stated that if no one worked at shitty low paying jobs, the jobs would pay more. This means that the people working the jobs are to blame for their low income, or that they should refuse the job until it pays more. This is entirely out of touch with reality because it requires that everyone, all at once, agree not to take shitty jobs for low pay (absolutely impossible).

[/quote]

I agree. I never said it was possible. The only reason I even said this in the first place was because the other poster asked what would happen if NOBODY worked the shitty jobs. He even capitalized NOBODY, so I assumed he truly meant if not a single person would work those jobs. So, I told him what would happen.

Don’t you agree, if NOBODY, not a single person, agreed to work a shitty job it would either disappear or pay more?[/quote]

One specific job, maybe. But all shitty jobs? All at once? The scenerio is too far fetched.

Whats more likely to happen is someone else has to take over the responsibilities of the job (let the teachers sweep the floor of the school, etc), to save the people “at the top” who are “pulling their weight” from having to spend more on wages.

235

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
If I had my own school system, these would be mandatory(not in any order of importance)

  • Life skills course, which would include(but not limited to): CPR, first aid, food handlers course(now everyone is qualified for a job), changing a flat tire, swimming, nutrition, keyboard/computer/internet skills, financial management/basic accounting
  • Self-defense/martial arts
  • Sciences, chem, bio, physics, etc
  • Basic shop/trades, ie some mechanical, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, painting, etc
  • Law and Politics(I think these two go hand-in-hand, right?)
  • History, social science, geography, learn about your country and the rest of the world
  • Phys. Ed., nutrition could also be addressed here if life skills got too big
  • Foreign languages would be elective(if there’s room) and/or extracurricular
  • Art would be extracurricular just like sports teams

Criticisms? alterations?[/quote]

You have to have some type of ethics teaching.[/quote]

Can you be more specific? Ethics regarding…?
Are we talking like the "Golden Rule’?

[/quote]

Natural Law by Aristotle and Aquinas. Or, as Kant showed, and I call it, the human flourishing factor.

I think the basic should be learning Latin and Greek, logic, and morals. So they can read the great authors in their own words, they can think logically, and they can be up right citizens.

236

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Ok, how to be morally upright.
I like some taoist books for this. The way and its power.[/quote]

I never understood this fascination with eastern religions.

237

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Ok, how to be morally upright.
I like some taoist books for this. The way and its power.[/quote]

I never understood this fascination with eastern religions.[/quote]

Taoism is a philosophy, not a religion. And it doesn’t ask people to believe in mythological nonsense.

238

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Ok, how to be morally upright.
I like some taoist books for this. The way and its power.[/quote]

I never understood this fascination with eastern religions.[/quote]

Taoism is a philosophy, not a religion. And it doesn’t ask people to believe in mythological nonsense.[/quote]

Buddhism, the more I delve deeper into it’s teachings, makes more sense to me. Now remember, I’m talking about what makes sense to ME. I was baptized Catholic, and have family members who are staunch Catholics, but it never felt right. My mother for instance, finds a great amount of peace in her Catholic faith, and that’s great…for her. I’ve never felt the same way. Tich Nat Hahn’s book “Living Buddha, Living Christ” was a great book that talks about the many similarities between Christianity and Buddhism.

It’s important to note that, at least to my knowledge, Buddhists have never saddled up and went to war with the intent of forcing their religion on anyone else.

239

To me, Taoism is about duality, and understanding how opposites interact, ie, ‘good’ can’t exist without ‘evil’.

240

Speaking of Buddha, and Christ, a friend of mine recommened this independany(?) film to me. I realy enjoyed and recommend you check it out as well. It’s called the Man from Earth, it was on youtube but I don’t seem to be able to locate then links, here’s a vimeo, I believe it’s full length.
http://vimeo.com/5857212