[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Steroids increase protein anabolism and increase the loss of body fat. They do not change the … basic physiology. [/quote]
They actually increase the number of satellite cells of muscles… FOREVER. [/quote]
So can other things. You are not going to get 28 inch thighs if you don’t have some naturally thick leg muscles to begin with no matter what you take.
So look at the guys who use tons of setriods to get to be the largest humans on the planet over the last 70 years…study their diets, but don’t eat the way they eat?
Ooookkkkkk
So I should follow Markus Ruhl’s diet, but just cut it in half?
Ooookkkkk
How about the fact that there might be different rules for 300lb. mass monsters vs. a natty trying to put on lean muscle mass?
Is it that hard to believe?
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
It seems they do change your capacity to create satellite cells though, which might not be what you mean with ‘basic’ physiology.
CONCLUSION: Intake of anabolic steroids and strength-training induce an increase in muscle size by both hypertrophy and the formation of new muscle fibers. We propose that activation of satellite cells is a key process and is enhanced by the steroid use.
The incorporation of the satellite cells into preexisting fibers to maintain a constant nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio seems to be a fundamental mechanism for muscle fiber growth. Although all the subjects in this study have the same level of performance, the possibility of genetic differences between the two groups cannot be completely excluded.
Here is another one:
The title says it all:
Steroid therapy is associated with decreased numbers of dendritic cells and fibroblasts, and increased numbers of satellite cells, in the dystrophic skeletal muscle.
Don’t want to add fuel to the fire, II enjoy this thread and want to add to the discussion…
Based on this, and other studies I have read, I have always considered THIS the reason why long term steroid users just ‘look’ different…
Which is no doubt a subject for another thread…[/quote]
I agree with all of that. One has to be a lawyer to write out a response on this forum.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Steroids increase protein anabolism and increase the loss of body fat. They do not change the … basic physiology. [/quote]
They actually increase the number of satellite cells of muscles… FOREVER. [/quote]
So can other things. You are not going to get 28 inch thighs if you don’t have some naturally thick leg muscles to begin with no matter what you take.
[/quote]
Agreed.
Also, when someone says look at how the biggest do things, it never meant eat EXACTLY what they eat.
No one here should be eating EXACTLY what anyone else is eating…because we are all a little different.
However, if your goal is 19" arms or bigger, ignoring how the biggest scheduled their meals and approached their eating and training makes no sense at all.
This approach didn’t work for thousands of lifters by accident.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
So look at the guys who use tons of setriods to get to be the largest humans on the planet over the last 70 years…study their diets, but don’t eat the way they eat?
Ooookkkkkk
So I should follow Markus Ruhl’s diet, but just cut it in half?
Ooookkkkk
How about the fact that there might be different rules for 300lb. mass monsters vs. a natty trying to put on lean muscle mass?
Is it that hard to believe?[/quote]
I think that may be true. I don’t use, and I have not really noticed a difference between say 170 grams and 300 grams of protein a day. At the 300 pound mark, versus 220, you have about twice the muscle poundage on your body. You also have twice the resting metabolic rate. You have far more protein breakdown on a daily basis.
Also I think that eating a LOT is a stress of its own. Your body has to put resources into processing all of that food. I think that when you are getting 300+ grams of protein a day, your body will naturally tend to produce enzymes to use that protein for fuel.
Why the pic of Sergio? He claimed that he reached 90% of his size eating “banana pancakes, and up to a dozen eggs a day”.
Edit
It looks like he drank a gallon of milk too. That would probably bring it to 250 grams of protein. I just remember him complaining about how poor his diet options were.
Ughh. Now I found a quote that says 1-2 dozen eggs, a gallon of milk, and a dozen or so banana pancakes and lots of greens.
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It would seem that the anabolic environment provided by assistance would not allow the eating habits to be compared to a lifter that was natural?
Do you disagree?[/quote]
I do. I don’t think steroids change physiology so much that food intake is drastically different from naturals. Sure it may make things somewhat different, but not so much that we should just ignore the dietary habits of all drug users.
[/quote]
Don’t mean this in a ‘rude’ way or anything, but do you know anyone who uses? Especially something like Tren? It literally transforms people lol
Look at their diets, and realize while it’s not a 100% change, drugs do change things. It’s like tennis and badminton: very similar, but still 2 completely different games. [/quote]
Knowing someone who uses =/= a deep knowledge about steroids and how they work.
Too many people on these forums think they know a ton about steroids/their effects despite never actually using them.
Also the comment was in response to IFBB pro’s dietary habits being worthless. These guys are the best because they use drugs and they also have their diets nailed down (among other things). All I am saying is that drug use doesn’t render their dietary practices useless to natural trainees.
[/quote]
I never claimed I have a deep knowledge about steroids and how they work. You haven’t made that claim either, and I think you said you don’t use either. So I don’t think that matters. I do feel I know a little about steroids and how they work.
Fair enough, I don’t think dietary habits are ‘worthless’ from IFBB pros. I just think that there are differences that should be taken into account. Nattie’s likely don’t need such a high percentage of their calories coming from protein as enhanced lifters do (this depends on the individual obviously, but I’m generalizing here).
Plus, with pro’s, their diets are often highly individualized, varying year to year and like PX has said many times, what some one is doing NOW doesn’t mean that’s what they did to INITIALLY get there.
Won’t link to another site, but everyone in here should google “Q & A with IFBB Undercover Pro”. Pretty interesting, deals with this topic a bit.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It would seem that the anabolic environment provided by assistance would not allow the eating habits to be compared to a lifter that was natural?
Do you disagree?[/quote]
I do. I don’t think steroids change physiology so much that food intake is drastically different from naturals. Sure it may make things somewhat different, but not so much that we should just ignore the dietary habits of all drug users.
[/quote]
Don’t mean this in a ‘rude’ way or anything, but do you know anyone who uses? Especially something like Tren? It literally transforms people lol
Look at their diets, and realize while it’s not a 100% change, drugs do change things. It’s like tennis and badminton: very similar, but still 2 completely different games. [/quote]
Knowing someone who uses =/= a deep knowledge about steroids and how they work.
Too many people on these forums think they know a ton about steroids/their effects despite never actually using them.
Also the comment was in response to IFBB pro’s dietary habits being worthless. These guys are the best because they use drugs and they also have their diets nailed down (among other things). All I am saying is that drug use doesn’t render their dietary practices useless to natural trainees.
[/quote]
I never claimed I have a deep knowledge about steroids and how they work. You haven’t made that claim either, and I think you said you don’t use either. So I don’t think that matters. I do feel I know a little about steroids and how they work.
Fair enough, I don’t think dietary habits are ‘worthless’ from IFBB pros. I just think that there are differences that should be taken into account. Nattie’s likely don’t need such a high percentage of their calories coming from protein as enhanced lifters do (this depends on the individual obviously, but I’m generalizing here).
Plus, with pro’s, their diets are often highly individualized, varying year to year and like PX has said many times, what someone is doing NOW doesn’t mean that’s what they did to INITIALLY get there.
Won’t link to another site, but everyone in here should google “Q & A with IFBB Undercover Pro”. Pretty interesting, deals with this topic a bit. [/quote]
Yep, I read the same thread…interesting info.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It would seem that the anabolic environment provided by assistance would not allow the eating habits to be compared to a lifter that was natural?
Do you disagree?[/quote]
I do. I don’t think steroids change physiology so much that food intake is drastically different from naturals. Sure it may make things somewhat different, but not so much that we should just ignore the dietary habits of all drug users.
[/quote]
Don’t mean this in a ‘rude’ way or anything, but do you know anyone who uses? Especially something like Tren? It literally transforms people lol
Look at their diets, and realize while it’s not a 100% change, drugs do change things. It’s like tennis and badminton: very similar, but still 2 completely different games. [/quote]
Knowing someone who uses =/= a deep knowledge about steroids and how they work.
Too many people on these forums think they know a ton about steroids/their effects despite never actually using them.
Also the comment was in response to IFBB pro’s dietary habits being worthless. These guys are the best because they use drugs and they also have their diets nailed down (among other things). All I am saying is that drug use doesn’t render their dietary practices useless to natural trainees.
[/quote]
I never claimed I have a deep knowledge about steroids and how they work. You haven’t made that claim either, and I think you said you don’t use either. So I don’t think that matters. I do feel I know a little about steroids and how they work.
Fair enough, I don’t think dietary habits are ‘worthless’ from IFBB pros. I just think that there are differences that should be taken into account. Nattie’s likely don’t need such a high percentage of their calories coming from protein as enhanced lifters do (this depends on the individual obviously, but I’m generalizing here).
Plus, with pro’s, their diets are often highly individualized, varying year to year and like PX has said many times, what some one is doing NOW doesn’t mean that’s what they did to INITIALLY get there.
Won’t link to another site, but everyone in here should google “Q & A with IFBB Undercover Pro”. Pretty interesting, deals with this topic a bit. [/quote]
Thanks for suggesting that. I’m not gonna retract what I’ve said so far in this thread, because I still believe we should pay attention to the dietary practices of the pros, but that Q&A was a real eye opener. Literally everything in that thread was news to me…
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why the pic of Sergio? He claimed that he reached 90% of his size eating “banana pancakes, and up to a dozen eggs a day”.
Edit
It looks like he drank a gallon of milk too. That would probably bring it to 250 grams of protein. I just remember him complaining about how poor his diet options were.
Ughh. Now I found a quote that says 1-2 dozen eggs, a gallon of milk, and a dozen or so banana pancakes and lots of greens.[/quote]
Exactly what I wrote earlier. He claimed he ate whenever he could, which was 2-3 times a day, plus milk. Really not that hard to understand.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Ughh. Now I found a quote that says 1-2 dozen eggs, a gallon of milk, and a dozen or so banana pancakes and lots of greens.[/quote]
Yeah…the guy was eating whenever he could.
But leave it to some here to act like drinking a gallon of milk throughout the day while at work equals a “fast”.
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It would seem that the anabolic environment provided by assistance would not allow the eating habits to be compared to a lifter that was natural?
Do you disagree?[/quote]
I do. I don’t think steroids change physiology so much that food intake is drastically different from naturals. Sure it may make things somewhat different, but not so much that we should just ignore the dietary habits of all drug users.
[/quote]
Don’t mean this in a ‘rude’ way or anything, but do you know anyone who uses? Especially something like Tren? It literally transforms people lol
Look at their diets, and realize while it’s not a 100% change, drugs do change things. It’s like tennis and badminton: very similar, but still 2 completely different games. [/quote]
Knowing someone who uses =/= a deep knowledge about steroids and how they work.
Too many people on these forums think they know a ton about steroids/their effects despite never actually using them.
Also the comment was in response to IFBB pro’s dietary habits being worthless. These guys are the best because they use drugs and they also have their diets nailed down (among other things). All I am saying is that drug use doesn’t render their dietary practices useless to natural trainees.
[/quote]
I never claimed I have a deep knowledge about steroids and how they work. You haven’t made that claim either, and I think you said you don’t use either. So I don’t think that matters. I do feel I know a little about steroids and how they work.
Fair enough, I don’t think dietary habits are ‘worthless’ from IFBB pros. I just think that there are differences that should be taken into account. Nattie’s likely don’t need such a high percentage of their calories coming from protein as enhanced lifters do (this depends on the individual obviously, but I’m generalizing here).
Plus, with pro’s, their diets are often highly individualized, varying year to year and like PX has said many times, what some one is doing NOW doesn’t mean that’s what they did to INITIALLY get there.
Won’t link to another site, but everyone in here should google “Q & A with IFBB Undercover Pro”. Pretty interesting, deals with this topic a bit. [/quote]
Thanks for suggesting that. I’m not gonna retract what I’ve said so far in this thread, because I still believe we should pay attention to the dietary practices of the pros, but that Q&A was a real eye opener. Literally everything in that thread was news to me…
[/quote]
There is a second thread of him answering more questions on the same site, once your done with the first thread. I suggest just going through and looking for UCP’s posts, don’t worry about the other guys. Really eye-opening stuff.
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
An iFBB pros food intake is irrelevant to 99.9% of the weight training community. we are not stage ready 250lb beasts.[/quote]
Guess I better ignore all of Shelby Starnes’ and John Meadows’s nutritional advice.
Considering that IFBB pros and other top assisted competitors are the biggest and leanest people that lift weights, it seems reasonable to pay attention to how they eat.
[/quote]
stupid arguement… Meadows and Starnes would not tell a natty to eat as much as they do.
look at the video i posted before, eric helms is NOT the biggest/leanest guy around… yet has a ton more nutritional knowledge than probably 95% of IFBB pros. hence why alot of IFBB pros have coaches. you would be suprised at how much dumb shit IFBB pros say.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
SO what me and alot of other people where saying is having a newbs stress about meal frequency is FAR LESS important than getting them to track there macros…[/quote]
Oh
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
because it has already been PROVEN scientifically that meal frequency has no effect at all on body composition.[/quote]
This thread was useful in making this seem to simply not be true…and to the guy trying to really reach their potential, ignoring the usefulness of what we are discussing doesn’t make sense…especially since that basic concept was used to build most of the really large muscular human beings on the planet over the last 70 years or so.[/quote]
did you read the cliffs i posted or even watch the fucking video? meal frequency is pointless to worry about if you aren’t even at least tracking your macros…
you dont even want a discussion!
you just want to keep pushing the whole this is how i and other big guys ate shit. as if everyone must follow… YOU are literally impossible to have a fucking discussion with im done.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Steroids increase protein anabolism and increase the loss of body fat. They do not change the … basic physiology. [/quote]
They actually increase the number of satellite cells of muscles… FOREVER. [/quote]
So can other things.
[/quote]
What else can increase satellite cells of muscle?
What does this have to do with what I said?
Shelby is my coach, and I can tell you its set up by ratios… but takes into consideration the person’s weight and a few other factors - which is exactly what I said. How we manage to go from “taking a pro’s meal plan and applying it to someone my size” to “follow the pro’s plan to a T” I’ll never know.
Also Undercover Pro - the most famous bodybuilder that is unknown in an incredibly (if not the most) narcicistic industry.
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
[quote]JBL5 wrote:
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
An iFBB pros food intake is irrelevant to 99.9% of the weight training community. we are not stage ready 250lb beasts.[/quote]
Guess I better ignore all of Shelby Starnes’ and John Meadows’s nutritional advice.
Considering that IFBB pros and other top assisted competitors are the biggest and leanest people that lift weights, it seems reasonable to pay attention to how they eat.
[/quote]
stupid arguement… Meadows and Starnes would not tell a natty to eat as much as they do.
look at the video i posted before, eric helms is NOT the biggest/leanest guy around… yet has a ton more nutritional knowledge than probably 95% of IFBB pros. hence why alot of IFBB pros have coaches. you would be suprised at how much dumb shit IFBB pros say.[/quote]
Dude, NO ONE with any brain cells would tell someone to eat as much as they do unless they had similar builds and goals.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Steroids increase protein anabolism and increase the loss of body fat. They do not change the … basic physiology. [/quote]
They actually increase the number of satellite cells of muscles… FOREVER. [/quote]
So can other things. You are not going to get 28 inch thighs if you don’t have some naturally thick leg muscles to begin with no matter what you take.
[/quote]
Agreed.
Also, when someone says look at how the biggest do things, it never meant eat EXACTLY what they eat.
No one here should be eating EXACTLY what anyone else is eating…because we are all a little different.
However, if your goal is 19" arms or bigger, ignoring how the biggest scheduled their meals and approached their eating and training makes no sense at all.
This approach didn’t work for thousands of lifters by accident.[/quote]
X, what’s a general caloric recommendation/baseline you recommend for skinny newbs?
[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:
did you read the cliffs i posted or even watch the fucking video? meal frequency is pointless to worry about if you aren’t even at least tracking your macros…
[/quote]
Macros is the new fad term for calories, carbs fats and protein. I am sure most here understand that making sure you eat enough calories is the goal.
Meal frequency could make the difference long term in the amount of muscle someone carries, so it is ALL important to some degree an that is what we are discussing. That isn’t “pointless”.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Macros is the new fad term for calories, carbs fats and protein. I am sure most here understand that making sure you eat enough calories is the goal.
[/quote]
This has to be the funniest thing you’ve ever posted. Calories is not defined as macronutrients. Macronutrients contain calories! The macros are protein, fat, and carbs, NOT calories.
And this is a FAD word? It’s been around a lot longer than bodybuilding!