The Real Iraq

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As long as we don’t forget it was the British and Russians who deposed the Shah’s father in the first place. Everyone always forgets about the British.

The Brits have been fucking up the world for a long time and the Russian for a good bit of the 20th century. Whenever the US tries to clean up the Brits mess or stop the Russians everything becomes our fault.[/quote]

Which is why we shouldn’t try to police the world. Let the Europeans solve their own problems and defend their own interests. If they don’t go extinct first, that is.

142

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The Brits have been fucking up the world for a long time and the Russian for a good bit of the 20th century. [/quote]

And you figured that adding to that will go unnoticed?

What the hell are you talking about? The Brits are still making a mess out of Iraq (although to a lesser extent than you Yanks). The Russians trade with Iraq like civilized people. They don’t bomb and invade the place while claiming to be spreading “freedom”. At least, have the intellectual honesty of a TB or Boston, and stop pretending that you are only trying to help but the savages can’t understand that.

143

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The Brits have been fucking up the world for a long time and the Russian for a good bit of the 20th century.

And you figured that adding to that will go unnoticed?

Whenever the US tries to clean up the Brits mess or stop the Russians everything becomes our fault.

What the hell are you talking about? The Brits are still making a mess out of Iraq (although to a lesser extent than you Yanks). The Russians trade with Iraq like civilized people. They don’t bomb and invade the place while claiming to be spreading “freedom”. At least, have the intellectual honesty of a TB or Boston, and stop pretending that you are only trying to help but the savages can’t understand that.[/quote]

Are you really going to pretend the Russians didn’t fuck up half the world?

144

[quote]lixy wrote:
They don’t bomb and invade the place while claiming to be spreading “freedom”. At least, have the intellectual honesty of a TB or Boston, and stop pretending that you are only trying to help but the savages can’t understand that.[/quote]

Just ask the Afghans, the Czechs or Hungarians about the Russians’ invasions.

145

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The US certainly has conditions on the arms it sells. If they were to be used as the Chinese arms are used in Darfur we would stop selling them.
[/quote]

Do you really need me to start listing the Saud’s human rights abuses? If you really do have conditions, they aren’t much better than nothing.

And you keep ignoring my main point, which is that your military is (among other things) stopping the people from potentially standing up to their government, something your country considers important enough that it’s in your constitution.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
He didn’t pull the trigger but he shared the same goals as the ones that did. If JFK was assassinated by the republicans and the republicans were elected to take over and they proceeded to steal from foreign investors and court an enemy foreign power I would expect repercussions.

Would you be cool with them installing a dictator?

There are appropriate responses for this kind of thing, overthrowing the government is not one of them. The British blocked the ocean lanes and banned British technicians from working for the Iranians, preventing them from selling their oil. And this is assuming they did actually steal the plants. I’ve never seen mention on whether or not the British oil company was compensated by the Iranians.

Also, the assassination was carried out by a fundamental Islamic group where as Mosaddeq was relatively secular.

That is correct but they shared the same goals. Who is to say that the fundamental group wasn’t manipulated by Mossadeq or the Soviets or both? Those were very shady times in Iran and blaming the US and the British for the shady actions is unfair.
[/quote]

I’m not blaming them for the shady actions performed by the Iranians, I’m blaming them for the much shadier actions they performed themselves. They violently overthrew a democracy and installed a dictatorship. I can’t believe you’re trying to justify this.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
As long as we don’t forget it was the British and Russians who deposed the Shah’s father in the first place. Everyone always forgets about the British. [/quote]

I’ve mentioned the British role in almost every post on the topic. And anyway, I don’t think deposing of the monarchy was a bad thing. It’s replacing the democracy with a despotic monarch that was wrong.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Which is why we shouldn’t try to police the world.[/quote]

I agree, you shouldn’t.

146

[quote]will to power wrote:
And you keep ignoring my main point, which is that your military is (among other things) stopping the people from potentially standing up to their government, something your country considers important enough that it’s in your constitution.
[/quote]

Who’s these people you are talking about?

If moderates try to take control, they will end up like Bhutto.

The only ones I see standing up to the Saudi government is AQ and would you really want them in charge? It’d be even worse.

147

Why blame anyone for the Iranian’s actions. Aren’t the Iranians responsible for themselves?

148

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
And you keep ignoring my main point, which is that your military is (among other things) stopping the people from potentially standing up to their government, something your country considers important enough that it’s in your constitution.

Who’s these people you are talking about?

If moderates try to take control, they will end up like Bhutto.

The only ones I see standing up to the Saudi government is AQ and would you really want them in charge? It’d be even worse.[/quote]

So your argument is that you should keep oppressing the people because if the moderates took over someone may assassinate their leaders at some point? How about just admitting that it’s wrong?

[quote]
Why blame anyone for the Iranian’s actions. Aren’t the Iranians responsible for themselves?[/quote]

Yes they are, and I’m not blaming anyone for the Iranians actions. I’m blaming Americans for overthrowing their democratic government and installing a dictatorship.

149

[quote]will to power wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The US certainly has conditions on the arms it sells. If they were to be used as the Chinese arms are used in Darfur we would stop selling them.

Do you really need me to start listing the Saud’s human rights abuses? If you really do have conditions, they aren’t much better than nothing.

And you keep ignoring my main point, which is that your military is (among other things) stopping the people from potentially standing up to their government, something your country considers important enough that it’s in your constitution.

[/quote]

Our military is not stopping shit in SA. We stopped Saddam’s tanks from rolling through but we are not stopping people from standing up to the government. The Saudi’s goons are doing that themselves. Our military has been a target of terrorists, they have not fought against it in Saudi Arabia in any sizeable capacity.

150

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
…
[/quote]

You know full well that, if there’s a popular grassroots movement to kick out the Al-Sauds and reclaim their squandered wealth, the US will be among the first to condemn it and call it a terrorist actions. So spare us your pathetic obfuscations.

151

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…

You know full well that, if there’s a popular grassroots movement to kick out the Al-Sauds and reclaim their squandered wealth, the US will be among the first to condemn it and call it a terrorist actions. So spare us your pathetic obfuscations.[/quote]

Bullshit. We are urging democratic elections. We just do not want AQ blowing up buildings.

152

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Bullshit. We are urging democratic elections. [/quote]

Let me guess…you’re “urging democratic elections” is by sending weapons to the tyrants so they can oppress their population even more.

Nice going!

154

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Bullshit. We are urging democratic elections.

Let me guess…you’re “urging democratic elections” is by sending weapons to the tyrants so they can oppress their population even more.

Nice going![/quote]

Shit, Bush actually got them to hold municipal elections ~ 4 years ago. Unfortunately they didn’t seem to spread or get the hang of it. Do you propose we overthrow their government and write a new constitution for them?

155

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Shit, Bush actually got them to hold municipal elections ~ 4 years ago. Unfortunately they didn’t seem to spread or get the hang of it. Do you propose we overthrow their government and write a new constitution for them? [/quote]

You live in a black and white world, don’t you?

Here’s what you need to do: Stop sending them weapons,

156

[quote]lixy wrote:
Here’s what you need to do: Stop sending them weapons, [/quote]

But how will they be able to celebrate weddings, birthdays, funerals and halloween if they can’t shoot in the air?

You’re so culturally insensitive.

157

[quote]pookie wrote:
lixy wrote:
Here’s what you need to do: Stop sending them weapons,

But how will they be able to celebrate weddings, birthdays, funerals and halloween if they can’t shoot in the air?

You’re so culturally insensitive.
[/quote]

And the death of any Jew…That requires some heavy artillery.

158

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Shit, Bush actually got them to hold municipal elections ~ 4 years ago. Unfortunately they didn’t seem to spread or get the hang of it. Do you propose we overthrow their government and write a new constitution for them?

You live in a black and white world, don’t you?

We never hear a peep from Washington denouncing the horrors of the Saudi regime. All you give them, is weapons, pads on the back and invitations. If any other country had that level of religious intolerance, the White House will be demonizing them non-stop.

Here’s what you need to do: Stop sending them weapons, [/quote]

Do we also blockade them so the Chinese don’t sell them weapons?

You live in a black and white world don’t you?

159

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Shit, Bush actually got them to hold municipal elections ~ 4 years ago. Unfortunately they didn’t seem to spread or get the hang of it. Do you propose we overthrow their government and write a new constitution for them?

You live in a black and white world, don’t you?

We never hear a peep from Washington denouncing the horrors of the Saudi regime. All you give them, is weapons, pads on the back and invitations. If any other country had that level of religious intolerance, the White House will be demonizing them non-stop.

Here’s what you need to do: Stop sending them weapons,

Do we also blockade them so the Chinese don’t sell them weapons?

You live in a black and white world don’t you?[/quote]

By what right do you want to blockade them? If the Chinese sells them weapons, then the Chinese will get the flack from pissed off people like myself.

160

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Shit, Bush actually got them to hold municipal elections ~ 4 years ago. Unfortunately they didn’t seem to spread or get the hang of it. Do you propose we overthrow their government and write a new constitution for them?

You live in a black and white world, don’t you?

We never hear a peep from Washington denouncing the horrors of the Saudi regime. All you give them, is weapons, pads on the back and invitations. If any other country had that level of religious intolerance, the White House will be demonizing them non-stop.

Here’s what you need to do: Stop sending them weapons,

Do we also blockade them so the Chinese don’t sell them weapons?

You live in a black and white world don’t you?

By what right do you want to blockade them? If the Chinese sells them weapons, then the Chinese will get the flack from pissed off people like myself.[/quote]

You are an idiot.