[quote]Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
Snipe. It was an accident. You know that, most people do, but apparently there is no acceptance of accidents for some. Blame anyone but those that are the root cause…that’s too un PC.
This is utter BS. It was an “accident” before we found out how they executed improper protocol and began a very large cover up with lies that even expanded into what he was actually wearing. That makes it a fuck up, a cover up and a murder. Get your terminology right.
Save your attitiude for someone who would actually be intimidated by you.
You simplistic analysis speaks volumes.
Just let them blow up…then the Londoners will be sure they are bombers.
Have a nice day.
My simplistic analysis? You are the one who ignored the cover up and the lie. You are the one who is making it seem as if it was just a simple case of mistaken identity. That would make you the one throwing out simplistic acceptance of what happened.[/quote]
Yes the govet, all govt, is the root of all evil. Lies, lies, lies. Repeat.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Yes the govet, all govt, is the root of all evil. Lies, lies, lies. Repeat.
Accident free war. That’s all that is acceptable.
[/quote]
Actually, politics are filled with liars. Only a child would avoid acknowledging that. No one sane on this planet expects accident free war. What we do expect is for there to be an effort of honesty by a government when it comes to protecting its own people. Not only did that honesty get thrown out the window on this case, it got trampled and shot 8 times in the head.
You call a lie and a cover up an “accident”. I call that deluded and falling real close to evil when it is only accepted because of political affiliation.
Gents, perhaps this is all some sort of misguided lack of understanding…but I doubt it.
The point I was trying to make, before you all tried to make it for me was this.
It was an accident. It happened because the terrorists set off a few bombs and an apb was out for them.
Nobody is condoning the killing of an innocent person and mistakes should be fixed. That’s common sense.
However, discounting the fact that a suicide bomber needs to be killed before he sets himself off is simplistic. It’s a tragedy that the poor guy got killed and yes if it was my brother I would be pretty pissed off. However, I wouldn’t expect the cops not too shoot in the future if they had good cause and too save mass casualties. That’s reality.
Too believe that the London Police set out to kill a Brazilian student is silly. Nobody is saying give them a free pass but too ignore the reasons why it happened as a justification only invites police hestiation when the time comes to use force. Nail the guy for lying not for taking the shot.
So, all of the incompetencies before the shots are fired, and the fact that the guy had nothing suspicious about him doesn’t enter the picture to you.
You may want to blame the terrorists, and indeed, without the terrorists the situation would not have occurred, but the terrorists are not just a big damned excuse to be pulled out whenever society fails in its duties.
The duties of society are absolute. Citizens, and their rights, are to be protected by the authorities. That is why western societies were created, because the populace railed against capricious authority. If the terrorists have already changed that, then they have already won.
There is a risk in living in a free society, that a terrorist may kill you. The risk of terrorism is now one of the costs of freedom. We simply have to accept it. It is not an excuse for horrible abuses of power by authorities.
As the right like to say, freedom is not free. Well, like it or not, we are all soldiers in the war on terrorism, and we can’t expect the government to eliminate that threat through force… that is as much a kumba-ya concept as trying to make friends with islamofascists.
[quote]vroom wrote:
However, I wouldn’t expect the cops not too shoot in the future if they had good cause and too save mass casualties. That’s reality.
So, all of the incompetencies before the shots are fired, and the fact that the guy had nothing suspicious about him doesn’t enter the picture to you.
You may want to blame the terrorists, and indeed, without the terrorists the situation would not have occurred, but the terrorists are not just a big damned excuse to be pulled out whenever society fails in its duties.
The duties of society are absolute. Citizens, and their rights, are to be protected by the authorities. That is why western societies were created, because the populace railed against capricious authority. If the terrorists have already changed that, then they have already won.
There is a risk in living in a free society, that a terrorist may kill you. The risk of terrorism is now one of the costs of freedom. We simply have to accept it. It is not an excuse for horrible abuses of power by authorities.
As the right like to say, freedom is not free. Well, like it or not, we are all soldiers in the war on terrorism, and we can’t expect the government to eliminate that threat through force… that is as much a kumba-ya concept as trying to make friends with islamofascists.[/quote]
Not using force to eliminate terrroism? The minute you take that off the table it’s game over. The other side doesn’t see it that way.
I choose to believe that the police here and in Britian don’t target people to be assasinated.
[quote]hedo wrote:
I choose to believe that the police here and in Britian don’t target people to be assasinated.
[/quote]
I choose to believe that when a wrong action is committed, that action should be acknowledged and not swept under the carpet just because you agree with a poorly executed war on terror.
I didn’t say force could not be used, damn you are just looking through your thick lenses aren’t you.
I’m saying all the force in the world won’t guarantee your safety.
Also, nobody suggests the man was targeted for assasination. However, through incompetence, and then cover up, he was killed. The fact it wasn’t planned in advance doesn’t make it acceptable.
If you kill somebody while you are driving, but didn’t mean to, that certainly would not be acceptable either… especially if it was via your own lack of competence.
There really isn’t a point to debating counter-terrorism policy with this issue. There isn’t a point to debating politics. The Brits screwed this one up and tried to cover it up. They followed the only procedure you can when there is a suspected suicide bomber, incapacitate them with a shot, or shots, to the head.
What they didn’t do was verify the target ID and it seems they didn’t attempt to verify the existance of a bomb. I’ve trained for this type of incident, it sucks all around. Make the right call and a person dies, wrong call and an innocent dies, or worse a bomb detonates.
Either way, the police should have stood up and admitted an error rather than cover it up. The police officials involved should be disciplined, the on-scene commander should be relieved of duty, and the surveillance guys need to make some big time changes to how they collect intelligence. I would be busted to private and stuck in Leavenworth if I had been the commander of this operation. It was sloppy and wrong. Saying so is not a condemnation of how we deal with terrorists, not a political statement, nor is a condemnation of the use of force to prevent terrorist attacks.
[quote]BH6 wrote:
There really isn’t a point to debating counter-terrorism policy with this issue. There isn’t a point to debating politics. The Brits screwed this one up and tried to cover it up. They followed the only procedure you can when there is a suspected suicide bomber, incapacitate them with a shot, or shots, to the head.
What they didn’t do was verify the target ID and it seems they didn’t attempt to verify the existance of a bomb. I’ve trained for this type of incident, it sucks all around. Make the right call and a person dies, wrong call and an innocent dies, or worse a bomb detonates.
Either way, the police should have stood up and admitted an error rather than cover it up. The police officials involved should be disciplined, the on-scene commander should be relieved of duty, and the surveillance guys need to make some big time changes to how they collect intelligence. I would be busted to private and stuck in Leavenworth if I had been the commander of this operation. It was sloppy and wrong. Saying so is not a condemnation of how we deal with terrorists, not a political statement, nor is a condemnation of the use of force to prevent terrorist attacks. [/quote]
Agreed, but you see how quickly people were willing to look the other way simply because of the possible political ramifications. That is what scares me more than anything.
[quote]BH6 wrote:
There really isn’t a point to debating counter-terrorism policy with this issue. There isn’t a point to debating politics. The Brits screwed this one up and tried to cover it up. They followed the only procedure you can when there is a suspected suicide bomber, incapacitate them with a shot, or shots, to the head.
What they didn’t do was verify the target ID and it seems they didn’t attempt to verify the existance of a bomb. I’ve trained for this type of incident, it sucks all around. Make the right call and a person dies, wrong call and an innocent dies, or worse a bomb detonates.
Either way, the police should have stood up and admitted an error rather than cover it up. The police officials involved should be disciplined, the on-scene commander should be relieved of duty, and the surveillance guys need to make some big time changes to how they collect intelligence. I would be busted to private and stuck in Leavenworth if I had been the commander of this operation. It was sloppy and wrong. Saying so is not a condemnation of how we deal with terrorists, not a political statement, nor is a condemnation of the use of force to prevent terrorist attacks. [/quote]
[quote]Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
lucasa wrote:
hedo wrote:
Nobody is condoning the killing of an innocent person and mistakes should be fixed. That’s common sense.
Then
hedo wrote:
Nail the guy for lying not for taking the shot.
Which is it?
Read the post again. It’s pretty clear.
Fix the mistakes that were made. Don’t hang the guy out to dry for making one in the heat of battle.
Got it yet?
Are Bush-ites just unable to see the real problem that people are finding fault with?[/quote]