The other side

omg, i can’t just let you get away with that shit. you are a piece of shit, you know that.

i never claimed to be a military genius. you are quick to put words in people’s mouths. i am a SYSTEMS ENGINEER however. the IDF presentation had a basic technical fallacy that i could not ignore.

my “nonsense” is actually a response to your nonsense. a majority of my posts have been in direct response to your questions and your attempted rebuttals. if anything on these two threads is nonsensical it’s your positoin that ISRAEL IS ALWAYS RIGHT. that is complete bullshit. only children and retards think of the world in bipolar terms.

my general antipathy toward israel? DONT FUCKING PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. yo, i’ve been SPECIFIC about who is at fault in israel. i do not blame the general israeli populace but i do blame RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS and THE LIKUD PARTY LEADERSHIP. i’ve also said that ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS deserve what they get.

it seems you’re quick to criticize EVERYTHING i write, yet extremely slow to comprehend ANY of it.

cut the bullshit. you know exactly what deuteronomy 20 says.

lower yourself? you’d have to score at least a 145 to be on top of me.

tired of this SHIT.

Well, again, I can’t believe that the other thread is considered ‘anti-Israel’ by this crowd. Wow!

Brian, why do you want my answer? You don’t care what I think – you’re not here to learn and to share information. Rather, you’re here to try to win a debate. Therefore, there’s really no need for me to make your argument for you. If you want to tell us how wonderful Gandhi and Mandela are, why don’t you just say so? I’ll read it – trust me.

As for security, I fully understand the strategic value of the occupied territories. However, having a bunch of people that are really pissed off on the border has not brought them any security. As for the airport, perhaps they shouldn’t have built it so close to the border. (I do know where it is…it’s right on the border.)

Also, you’ve told us about the two-state solution you support. It’s one in which Israel keeps their settlements and surrounding land, and the Palestinians get poor land and screwed on their right to return.

As for my language, it’s getting charged because your only purpose here is to try to prove that people not on your side are ‘wrong’ on any minor point you can find, as if that invalidates the entire position. Sorry that danh and I haven’t made any errors for you to pounce on (not that you haven’t tried and tried and tried). As you know, I’m a Systems Engineer as well, so you’ll have a way to go to crush us.

In fact, I’m simply trying to have a discussion with you, as you are obviously interested in the topic. That’s why I sent you that PM … I thought the post was interesting, and I thought you may find it to be as well. I was mistaken… the only thing interesting to you is an opinion that agrees with your paradigms of the world. Did it ever occur to you that you cannot learn from someone that agrees with you on everything?

Good day.

Glute,

You said “Ive read a lot of attacks and opinion on Isreal here.” May I ask where? I’ve seen posts that are critical of the occupation, but I’ve seen no “attacks on Israel.” Did I miss something, or is any statement against anything Israel ever does an “attack” or “anti-Semitic” by definition?

I don’t think anyone here is always happy with everything America ever does. A lot of Americans are critical of Bush, and a lot of Americans were critical of Clinton. These folks aren’t attacking America, nor are they anti-American.

danh,

No problem about the one-sided comment. I hadn’t noticed that you asked me a question about leadership here, in Israel, and in the occupied territories. I agree that Israel clearly needs new leadership, as Sharon is clearly bad news for peace. The Palestinians need leadership as well. I’m not so sure it will matter, though. Israel says they want to negotiate a peace, but the Palestinians Authority doesn’t appear to be asking for a lot. It’s Israel that keeps bringing in the deal-breakers. Seriously, if Israel told the world that they offered the Palestinians FULL sovereignty, ALL of the land on the occupied territories, and financial compensation in exchange for the right of return and were turned down, no one outside the Arab world would have any sympathy for the Palestinians. Needless to say, this isn’t the case. Rather, Israel wants partial sovereignty, land (including Ariel), and control over Palestinian airspace.

As for U.S. leadership, I’m very disillusioned with Bush’s leadership in dealing with world issues.

Here’s an interesting editorial from the New York Times.

A Willful Ignorance
By PAUL KRUGMAN

According to The New York Times, President Bush was genuinely surprised to learn from moderate Islamic leaders that they had become deeply distrustful of American intentions. The report on the “perception gap” suggests that the leader of the war on terror has no idea how badly that war ? which must, ultimately, be a war for hearts and minds ? is going.

Mr. Bush’s ignorance may reflect his lack of curiosity: “The best way to get the news,” he says, “is from objective sources. And the most objective sources I have are people on my staff.” Two words: emperor, clothes.

But there’s something broader going on: a sort of willful ignorance, supposedly driven by moral concerns but actually reflecting domestic politics. Surely it’s important to understand how others see us, but a new, post 9/11 version of political correctness has made it difficult even to discuss their points of view. Any American who tries to go beyond “America good, terrorists evil,” who tries to understand ? not condone ? the growing world backlash against the United States, faces furious attacks delivered in a tone of high moral indignation. The attackers claim to be standing up for moral clarity, and some of them may even believe it. But they are really being used in a domestic political struggle.

Last week I found myself caught up in that struggle. I wrote about why Mahathir Mohamad, Malaysia’s prime minister ? a clever if loathsome man who adjusts the volume of his anti-Semitism depending on circumstances ? chose to include an anti-Jewish diatribe in his speech to an Islamic conference. Sure enough, I was accused in various places not just of “tolerance for anti-Semitism” (yes, I’m Jewish) but of being in Mr. Mahathir’s pay. Smear tactics aside, the thrust of the attacks was that because anti-Semitism is evil, anyone who tries to understand why politicians foment anti-Semitism ? and looks for ways other than military force to combat the disease ? is an apologist for anti-Semitism and is complicit in evil.

Yet that moral punctiliousness is curiously selective. Last year the Bush administration, in return for a military base in Uzbekistan, gave $500 million to a government that, according to the State Department, uses torture “as a routine investigation technique,” and whose president has killed opponents with boiling water. The moral clarity police were notably quiet.

Why is aiding a brutal dictator O.K., while trying to understand why others don’t trust us ? and doing something to create that trust ? isn’t? Why won’t the administration mollify Muslims by firing Lt. Gen. William Boykin, whose anti-Islamic remarks have created vast ill will, from his counterterrorism position? Why won’t it give moderate Muslims a better argument against the radicals by opposing Ariel Sharon’s settlement policy, when a majority of Israelis think that some settlements should be abandoned, and even Israeli military officers have become bitterly critical of Mr. Sharon?

The answer is that in these cases politics takes priority over the war on terror. Moderate Muslims would have more faith in America’s good intentions if there were at least the appearance of a distinction between the U.S. and the Sharon government ? but the administration seeks votes from those who think that supporting Israel means supporting whatever Mr. Sharon does. It’s sheer folly to keep General Boykin in his present position, but as Howard Fineman writes in a Newsweek Web-exclusive column, the administration doesn’t want “to make a martyr of a man who depicts himself as a Christian Soldier, marching off to war.”

Muslims are completely wrong to think that the U.S. is engaged in a war against Islam. But that misperception flourishes in part because the domestic political strategy of the Bush administration ? no longer able to claim the Iraq war was a triumph, and with little but red ink to show for its economic plans ? looks more and more like a crusade. “Election Boils Down to a Culture War” was the title of Mr. Fineman’s column. But the analysis was all about abortion and euthanasia, and now we hear that opposition to gay marriage will be a major campaign theme. This isn’t a culture war ? it’s a religious war.

Which brings me back to my starting point: we’ll lose the fight against terror if we don’t make an effort to understand how others think. Yet because of a domestic political struggle that seems ever more centered on religion, such attempts at understanding are shouted down.

Mark R., the fact that you can’t simply acknowledge that suicide terrorists are immoral and unsupportable compared to other means of resistance says enough about your bias on this issue.

You are clearly with the (as of March 2002) 85% of Palestinians who support suicide attacks against Israelis. (Yassir Arafat’s wife lamented that she did not have a son who could explode himself in jihad)

And of course you’re anti-Israel because you characterize Jews as just coming in and robbing the land as the whites did to the Indians, and then being guilty of a whole load of emotive words that have applied to Germany, South Africa and Cambodia, and attempts to undermine the right of Jews to a national homeland while giving lip service to a 2-state resolution. Your quotation of the state department documents as a indictment against Israel, without reference to the criticisms of the PA in the very same pages did not come off as “impartial.” And you aim inflammatory language at Israel, and are more or less silent on the most sociopathic currents in the Palestinian world view.

Plus, I suspect you have a habit of talking about things you know nothing about, and then scrambling on the internet for support for your BS. Your denial that the PA doesn’t have control over 97% of the land was staggering. And your claim that “the Israelis kept the best land for themselves” is laughable in light of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Arafat’s aids were enthusiastic support of the plan Arafat rejected. It seemed to me that these comments were knee-jerk responses by your ego. In fact, it seemed to me that you are the one who wants to win an argument despite of the actual human lives that are stake in this situation.

I don’t care to decide whether I think you’re antisemitic. However, if an armchair observer holds a double standard against Israel, if he harshly criticizes it for actions or characteristics that he reacts to only mildly in other countries, then he is an antisemite, if he doesn’t change this behavior when he becomes aware of it. That is the case where anti-Zionism=antisemitism.

To others on this thread, who I think will understand me: My philosophy on this point is simple. With people who are truly impartial, who truly care about both the Palestinians and Israelis with more than the most abstract empathy, I talk about mistakes Israel has made, ways it should have pushed harder or should push harder now to sustain some development of a moderate “silent majority” in the Palestinian territories, to treat Palestinians with whom they come into contact with as much respect as possible. I criticize individual Israeli politicians and individual Israeli political acts. My conversation with someone of the mindset similar to George Mitchell’s is going to be different with those who would claim neutrality and “doth protest too much.” After all, we’re only losing American men and women everyday in the Iraq war because of the divided national loyalties of a “bunch of neocon Jews.”

Mark R.
Two characteristics I find interesting about you are (1) the way you try to dictate whose winning in a debate you’re involved in (“see everybody how…”), and (2) the way you make references to your intellectual capacities. Yeah, I’m sure you’re in this issue purely for compassion and not egoism.

“but the Palestinians Authority doesn’t appear to be asking for a lot.”

Impartiality, my ass! Everyone check out the FoxNews link I posted, where Dennis Ross describes what Arafat wanted at the negotiating table!

This is utterly ridiculous, Mark R! “partial sovreignty”? Are you an idiot (note: first comment I’ve made about your intelligence) or just a compulsive liar? And read Dennis Ross’ comments, Arafat’s demands added up to Israel getting NO air space.

And please, have the decency to post a link and a quote from that link, not a whole darn article.

check this out mark,

paul krugman is a self-hating jew! add john kerry to the list. (oh yeah, i’m already on that list). don’t forget the anti-semitic howard dean.

http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/001664.html. : http://www.johnjemerson.com/zizka.kerry.htm
http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/004501.html

these people are ridiculous.

Brian

Ha, ha, ha. You’re a real fucking trip. You really think people come here to discuss Mideast policy for an ego trip? If that’s the only reason you’re here, then I’m sorry I invited you back, because it’s certainly not my motivation. The rest of us actually DISCUSSING this, and that includes Glute and everyone else. Check out How to Win Friends and Influence People sometime. You’ll benefit from each and every word, but the main point for you is that debating pisses people off, unless you’re in a fucking debating club. In other words, I’m actually listening to you and your opinion (not literally, of course – you’ll probably ask how I could hear your typed words), not trying to figure out how to prove you wrong.

I’ll get back to you on the rest of it. As for your post, you act as though it’s normal for countries to give overflight permission. Fuck…what’s the use.

By the way, using Dennis Ross as a source is a fucking joke, and you should be embarrassed that you tried to pull that one on us.

Also, as for the article, the New York Times article keeps items available for only a few days. Sorry – the rest of us aren’t on dial-up.

Free advice – go join a fucking debating club.

danh,

Yeah…I thought you’d notice that as well. Anyone who disagrees with the occupation is a anti-Semitic Nazi, according to the argument.

Also, I have to laugh when these guys say that Israel is trying oh so hard to return the land. All they’d have to do is unilaterally leave the occupied territories. No one will stop them. Really.

Okay, I just read Brian’s link. I had thought that he was posting Ross’ opinion on the occupation as fact. I’ll comment on that article sometime later. Time to go design shit.

danh - some of the biggest antisemitites in history were jews

your point?

why didnt you answer to any of my post? the last one? you and mark R choose and pick to what to answer. Mark Ive seen alot of attacks on Israel, dont look surprised.

Explain to us why “Dennis Ross as a source is a fucking joke, and you [Brian] should be embarrassed that you tried to pull that one on us.”

Seriously, explain it to us. Nobody on Clinton’s team, including Clinton himself, has given a different version than Ross’s.

Is Prince Bandar of Saudia Arabia also a bad source? He was in on the negotiations and gave the same story. It was featured in an article in the New Yorker.

Now Mark R. believes in a 2-state solution without Israeli airspace… If Mark R. wants to tout his impartiality with such diamonds as “the Palestinians Authority doesn’t appear to be asking for a lot. It’s Israel that keeps bringing in the deal-breakers,” without even addressing what Dennis Ross and Prince Bandar say happened in Taba, which basically switches the PA (in the person of Arafat) and Israel around in Mark’s statement, then he needs a lesson in not underestimating OTHER people’s intelligence.

I put the FOX transcript up. People can read it for themselves.

I can see why people might say that Paul Krugman’s comments were irresponsible. He’s probably not antisemitic, however, I can see people jumping the gun and saying he showed, in his words, “tolerance for anti-Semitism.” As I said before, hypersensitivity is often understandable on this issue because “of the whole attempted genocide thing”

No significant group has tried to out John Kerry as a Catholic hiding Jewish heritage! And Howard Dean, in fact, called Hamas “soldiers,” to negotiate with, and John Kerry took him to task for it. Dean explained his intentions to differentiate his remarks from antisemitism. As an aside, I think we should remember that it’s possible to make remarks that people, Jewish or otherwise, deem antisemtic and not be a dyed-in-the-wool antisemite. Just because Paul Krugman isn’t, doesn’t excuse Pat Buchanan or even Robert Novak.

Thanks for the advice about that book, Mark. I’ll pick it up so I know how to be friends with Mr. Benign Impartiality who told us “you fell for the standard false argument form, which is the statement of opinions as facts from which to start debates” before he asked me, “Do you believe the Israeli apartheid system is ethically or morally right?”

glute, i’m sorry if i didn’t answer your question. i really don’t have time to answer every question posed to me.

i answered brian smith’s statements because they were complete misrepresentations of my position.


i dont even know what your question was… human rights? glute, just because i happen to say that israel has violated human rights (which have been documented by the UN and other internaitonal groups) doesn’t mean that i condone suicide bombings.

that reminds me of all security council resolutions against israel that fail because there is no mention of pla activity in the same resolution. can’t you have two separate, independent resolutions that condemn both parties?

resolution A: israeli settlements must be dismantled, extra-judicial killings must be stopped

resolution B: palestian authority must make genuine attempts to crack down on militants.

similarly,

my statement A: “i think wesley clark’s idea of installing nato or UN troops in the occupied territories is an excellent idea:… fewer accidental and intentional human rights violations, hopefully resulting in fewer suicide attacks by revenge-seekers”

my statement B: “when the plo fails to take a more proactive approach to dissuading suicide bombings, it makes me think that it is not not satisfied (intentional double negative) when one occurs. that’s a point against the palestinian authority.”

my point with the list is that paul krugman (one of the finest minds out there, imo) was labelled an anti-semite for, in short, not calling the malaysian pm an anti-semite. which is ridiculous you must admit. the other people on that list, in addition, to my list on the other thread only confirm that certain groups are willing to use the label or anti-semitism as a political tool. (how many times do i have to say the same thing.)

glute, the fact that self-hating jews exist does not mean that these anti-semitic labels are valid. in each of the names i listed (scratch buchanan), there is little to no evidence of anti-semitism.

  • anti-semitism equals hating jews.

  • anti-semitism does not equal questioning likud party policy.

  • anti-semitism does not equal anti-zionism.

  • anti-semitism does not equal questioning the war.

the term anti-semitic gets tossed around too easily and convenienty.

What would Howard Stern think? That is most important

howard stern is a cool jewish guy. i don’t hear him bitching about “our promised land” or proclaiming that israel is always right. (well i haven’t heard him in about a year but when he has lesbians going at it in his station, i doubt his jewishness even comes to mind.)

Yeah, Glute, it’s not like Krugman says that the Likud party and Orthodox Jews seek world domination, according to Deut. 20:13-15, now THAT would make him seem like an antisemite!

Or maybe not consenting that suicide killings of Israeli civilians was s morally bankrupt policy of resistance (compared to civil disobedience or guerilla attacks on civil infrastructure and military personel), that might also make a person seem more like an antisemite than an impartial observer…

The same UN which has declared Israel a depraved violator of human rights suppressed video that showed Israeli soldiers being kidnapped by Hizbollah in the interest of “neutrality,” while telling the Palestinians they should use “ALL AVAILABLE MEANS, including armed struggle” against the Jewish state. On the security counsel, voting to condemn Israel was Syria, which has an abject record of human rights (just killing its citizens who voice dissent with the regime).On the human rights committee was Sudan, which permits massacres of its citizens and sustains the institution of slavery (yes, actual ownership of another human being) into the 21st century. The UN is an idea in progress and it has to shape up a lot before it can justly point the finger at Israel.

And holding onto to double standards against Israel is the one case where anti-Zionism does equal antisemitism. Clearly, George Mitchell can criticize Israel without being an antisemite.

(Mark R., I looked over “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” You’re right, excellent book! But I couldn’t find where it talks up dissing fat people. What edition are you using?)

Ok, whoever put up the idea of having someone like the UN put troops into gaza or west bank is just nuts.

For one, anyone who serves under the UN knows that it is some of the sh*ttiest service known to man. It plain sucks. You aren’t allowed to shoot back (except in really rare circumstances), and you just stand there and look stupid.
Best of all, you cant even help the people you are “protecting”. Normally your APC is full of fellow troops, so there is no room for civvies. Which means when the shooting starts, you just go into your APC and listen to the carnage.
Yeah, sounds like real fun to me, sign me up!

And, until you stop the homocide bombers and the support for them, you will never have anything remotely like peace there. I’m surprised the israeli’s have held back so long myself, I would have gone and slain the leaders of the terror groups long ago, probably starting a major war.

dude, picking at my words is pointless now. i’m not gonna respond to you.