John Kerry--FYI for T-men/vixens

Off Topic
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Noam Schrieber writes on New Republic’s website that this guy will talk out of both sides of his mouth when it comes to war:

'Consider this “Notebook” item from TNR’s March 25, 1991 issue, which ran under the headline “Same Senator, Same Constituent”:

“Thank you for contacting me to express your opposition … to the early use of military force by the US against Iraq. I share your concerns. On January 11, I voted in favor of a resolution that would have insisted that economic sanctions be given more time to work and against a resolution giving the president the immediate authority to go to war.”

–letter from Senator John Kerry to Wallace Carter of Newton Centre, Massachusetts, dated January 22 [1991]

“Thank you very much for contacting me to express your support for the actions of President Bush in response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. From the outset of the invasion, I have strongly and unequivocally supported President Bush’s response to the crisis and the policy goals he has established with our military deployment in the Persian Gulf.”

–Senator Kerry to Wallace Carter, January 31 [1991]
Will someone PLEASE put this guy out of his misery? Please?’

John Edwards, anyone? The Dems have to end this moratorium on negative campaigning. I know it hurt Gephardt and Dean, but in the case of Kerry, I think some pointed criticism will be rewarded for being in our national interest. Where the hell was Dean on this in the debate?

2

Yea the democrats are MOTHER FUCKING IDIOTS for nominating kerry… who i like to call Michel Ducakis 2…they had a soutern 4 star general…and a southern mill workers son…and they choose Michel Ducakis 2…MOTHER FUCKING IDIOTS…big m

3

Let?s have a little respect for Mr. Cash and Kerry, you got to admire a man who can make a living marrying rich women.

4

big m, before you go calling people idiots, you might want to learn how to spell. John Kerry hasn’t been nominated yet anyways, that won’t happen until the Democratic Convention later this year. Besides, the circumstances for the two Gulf Wars were totally different, so it’s not beyond comprehension (well, mine at least) why someone would support one and not the other.

5

jmot1,

Those were written 9 days apart. Not 12 years.

6

Back in '91, Kerry defended this by blaming it “a computer error” for sending multiple letters, and at the wrong times… Does a computer write his letters for him? Ridiculous. Waste of a candidate. John Edwards for President.

7

not to defend kerry… i am registered rep and so have nothing to think about until november… but those two replies do not exactly contradict each other:

  1. “i share your concern” along with “i voted for the resolution january 11th” -11th was before the bombs dropped

  2. “from the outset of the invasion,” meaning jan 18th or 19th, when bombing commenced, he has “supported … bush’s response”

easily explained away by a clever politician type and i would guess that that is the same exact opinion many/most americans shared at those 2 particular times. doesnt seem all that damaging to kerry. before war, no one really wants to go, once invasion starts, everyone ties on a yellow ribbon - in support of the war.

$.02…
andy

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Good call, Andy. But 2 things to consider for those Democrats/Liberals who are willing to turn a blind eye to just about ANYTHING in one of their own to beat GWB:

(1) Semantic: “From the outset of the invasion, I have strongly and unequivocally supported President Bush’s response to the crisis”

These clauses contradict each other, since “President Bush’s response” and “policy goals” were initiated before the invasion. He’s never asserted that he changed his mind when the invasion commenced.

(2) We’re talking about war here, which is a serious issue. One cannot be responsible and employ shady language when lives are at stake. Isn’t this one of the main anti-war gripes against the Bush administration in reference to WMD? Dean and Lieberman have always told us in no uncertain terms where they stood. Kerry knows better but puts political expediency over moral responsibility.

I actually TRUST Bush more than Kerry, but his foreign policy has neglected fine points and his domestic policy has been appalling.

9

Brian-

Actually “From the outset of the invasion” implies quite strongly that he changed his mind when the invasion started. Before the invasion, he preferred to pressure Saddam through nonviolent means, but when we invaded Iraq, he got on board behind the president. That’s simple reading comprehension. Had he been in favor of a military solution in Iraq all along, there would have been no need to include that qualifier.

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BTW, I identify myself as a Republican, but I’m a Republican who can read and who has no real desire to vilify Kerry.

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Actually, Andy, I take that back. Even I got loop-de-looped. When Kerry says “from the outset of the invasion,” he’s talking about Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait, not the Coalition’s invasion of Iraq. There is no way to split hairs.

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Look, everyone has a right to their own opinion. So I am going to give mine. I am a military member who has deployed 3 times since 9/11 happened. I support Bush and the decisions he has made. I was away from home for 270 days in a two year time frame and some of you idiots are bitching. How has the war in Iraq interupted your way of life? Make a sacrifice and then come on here and raise hell about your spineless democratic candidates. If Clinton would have stood his ground and actually done something when other terrorist attacks happened to Americans in the world ( ie USS Cole, Khobar Towers, first bombing of the World Trade Center, Embassy in Yemen) we would not be where we are right now. Military members were killed in everyone of these attacks and not one democrat lifted a finger to do anything about any those events. BTW thanks to you guys out there who do support the Republican party.

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I’ve never replied to political posts here, I have an aversion to trying to explain things to people who don’t want to listen and/or are close minded. They seem like the black hole of t-mag boards: imp’t and serious ideas just get lost in them. Hopefully my one effort isn’t wasted on a post read by 15 people! OK, before I respond to the post, I don’t identify myself as Rep. or Democrat. I feel the 2 party sytem is a sham, an abomination of a political system. Life is not b&w, it is many shades of gray. To boil politics down to b&w is ridiculous. To have the electoral college vote count more than the votes of citizens is disgusting. To have 9 untouchable people on a court with the power to change every single law in this country is frightening and against everything this country should stand for. To have a ‘president’ who lost the popular vote but still ‘won’ thanks to shady dealings in the state run by his brother is scary. To have a Vice-president who gives out hundreds of millions of dollars in gov’t contracts to his buddies is infuriating. Nobody gives a damn in this country, I don’t know why for sure. Many people in this country are ‘sheeple’ to some extent, esp the young people. Compared to many European countries where even semi-literate farmers argue politics all day, its amazing we still have a democracy. Or do we? Few people are talking about the new “anti-terrorism laws” which strip away human rights. There are people who have been locked up in jail for over a year, without a trial and w/out due process, for suspicion of terrorism.
As far as Kerry is concerned, he is Dukakis 2. I like that analogy. Edwards is probably the most electable, while Dean appears to be the most honest, intelligent and ethical one of the group.
And speaking of who is electable, I will say this: sheeple do not like ugly people, and Kerry is ugly. We are a superficial, media-intensive society, and I hate to say it, but looks are going to play a factor in the race. It hurts me to type this, but my own grandmother started yelling at the TV about how ugly Kerry is. Sad but true…It is a fact that good-looking people tend to do better in life…also sad. Its also sad that most people don’t care about politics other than how it affects their taxes.

As far as Kerry and the war letters, I think andy hit it on the head: its hard to disagree loudly with a war while its still going on and let’s not forget that Kerry is a vetran who did NOT 1 BUT 2 tours of duty in Nam and got a purple friggin heart!.. WHile Bush was ushered into the Texas Nat’l guard.
As for the hardcore Republicans, who have some good ideas but are the very definition of hypocrites,
Here’s a Republican reality check: go to Google and type in “Bush osama bin laden connection”.
What’s that? You didn’t know that the Bushes and the bin laden’s are good friends and serious business partners? What? You didn’t know that less than 48 hours after Sep 11th,when the entire country was under lockdown and nobody could leave including YOU and YOUR FAMILY, the Bin Ladens were given special permission to fly to Saudi Arabia from California, where they and other Saudi families own billions of dollars worth of real estate?
Bush starts a war for nothing, for non-existent WMD, wasting 1000s of lives and billions of dollars, and that makes democrats ‘spineless’? Bush sends men to die and that makes him brave when he himself used his family’s wealth and power to get out of Nam?
Bush erases the largest budget surplus in the history of this country in about 3 years, many of it given out to his and Cheney’s business associates and its democrats that are spendocrats?
Gingrich and Limbaugh hounded Clinton for years because he had a toke in college and like every normal man he likes to have sex with many women (and actually had the skills to do it[and lack of self-discipline,once he was married]) when Gingrich was doing the exact SAME THING with his mistresses? And Limbaugh is a junkie!
And Strom Thurmond liked the brown sugar but was against civil rights?
And most American corporations receive billions of dollars a year aka corporate welfare but Republicans are against free health care, welfare, food stamps, and raising the minimum wage to a livable level? Which all summed up together wouldn’t still be close to what we give away to corporations in subsidies and tax breaks.
Funny how defense spending goes up when Republicans are in power and then they say there is no money to spend to help poor people or those less fortunate.

And Halftrack, if you’re in the AF you’re probably in my cousin’s division which is about to be dployed again to Qatar, I think. Be careful and come back home safe. But you are way off base re: terrorism and its causes and whether or not it can be prevented. You’re not alone though. Here’s a hint: Israel. Israel is the elephant in the room that nobody sees and if they do see it, they pretend its not there.
Never let anyone think for you and be suspicious of those in power…Peace

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good stuff sonny… now prepare to hear the “antisemite” label from certain ppl for simply mentioning israel…

ok john kerry actually has a voting record on national security… although some people may see it as being weak on natoinal secuirty… it is a voting record and familiarity with national security nonetheless… what did w have on his resume coming into office… i mean what are people saying? that if john kerry were to get elected into office that we’ll get bombed or something? those implications are ridiculous…just scare tactics…
actually if i wanted to be a dork about it i could say george bush’s lack of familiarity with national security lead to 911… we both know the real work and responsibilities of national security are distributed and depend on a lot more than just one man’s voting record or lack thereof… he, like any other president, will make decisions based on the facts on the table…

kerry is definitely uglier than edwards but definitely not as bad as kucinich… and definitely more composed than dean… the only question now is how will clark and edwards fare against kerry in the coming primaries

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Strom Thurmond was against civil rights…in 1948. He later did many things in the way of civil rights.

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First of all, Halftrack, I am an independent. Second of all, this post represents my research and active interest in politics. Third of all, don’t be so obsessed with “sheeple,” or the booboisie. If you actually go out and find me a person who is a
“sheep” through and through, the existence of that person will not elevate any of your opinions, or mine, or our worth as human beings.

Fourth, you call yourself an independent but most of your accusations come from the camp of the New Left with the least regard for truth and who gets their only kicks from polemics. Fifth, just because people may disagree with YOU on political issues doesn’t mean debate about those issues is a total waste of time.

Sixth, you shouldn’t put forward a radical topic change for the thread, as simple minded as putting all the blame (and our national anxiety) on the head of Israel–which is, and HAS ALREADY BEEN a separate thread entirely. If ONLY it were that simple! Yes, Arabs tend to dislike Israel. But we’re fighting Islamism, not the average Arab on the street who probably doesn’t have warm feelings about Israel, homosexuality and the Catholic Church. If you research Islamism and Wahaabiism, their historical roots and their political platforms, you’ll learn very quickly that Israel is seen as a manifestation of European power, the West and democracy. As Charles O’Brien has written in the NYC magazine “First of the Month” (which I recommend to you as a self-described “independent,” www.firstofthemonth.org):

“But the main justification offered for September 11 - not by its perpetrators, to be sure, but by the extortionists nearer to hand who see the date as Christmas come early - has been the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is a real Palestinian grievance, but the Palestinian issue is fraudulent. The XX Century saw many millions dispossessed and slaughtered, made stateless and homeless. Maps of the world don’t stay current long. In 1947, for instance, only a year before the nakba of the Palestinian Arabs, around one million people were killed in the course of the creation of a Moslem separatist state in Pakistan. The remark attributed to Hitler, “Who now remembers the Armenians?”, has lost none of its force. The rest of humanity may be swept aside. Palestinian Arabs alone have enduring rights, and any atrocity, if claimed to further the redress of those rights, will be claimed to be justified. Palestinians are being “killed”, we are constantly being told. But guns are being fired on both sides, and even in grossly unequal contests (e.g. the Warsaw ghetto in 1943, The Warsaw uprising in 1944, Budapest in 1956) that’s called fighting. Only Palestinians can be killed because their humanity alone will be acknowledged. To be told that 79 percent of Egyptians - with no rights, no food, no health, no future - regard Palestine as their most pressing problem - Palestine! - is to understand that a decent respect for the opinions of mankind will have the good sense to disregard Egyptian “public opinion” entirely. We certainly did not - and would not - celebrate the massacres at Deir Yassin or Sabra or Shatila, three centerpieces of the permanent Palestinian atrocity exhibition (rendered a little secondary after September 11). They, along with their most ardent sympathizers, applauded our misfortune. By all means, we should acknowledge injustice, and hope for its righting, but more immediately, having seen what we have seen, we should cast a cold eye.”

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Sorry, I wrote that last post to Halftrack, when it should have been addressed to Sonny S.

Halftrack, I respect your defense of our country. I just want to say that there are some Democrats–in and out of office–who share your priorities and wanted to act earlier (as early as Lebabon) when our soldiers were killed on foreign soil.

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Thanks Brian, just trying to make a point.

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Halftrack- I forgot to mention my ocusin is also in Alaska, which is why I thought you may be in the same division. But he gets transferred to Aviano in 6 months and he is psyched! He had to re-sign to get the transfer though. U know ho that goes…
Brian- 1- I never said you were a Republican. I am pissed off though at many Republicans who are hypocritical and turn a blind eye towards corporate favoritism and attack democratic leaders for being soft when Bush and Rumsfeld never served in combat. Just beaucse someone wants to spend billions of dollars on deense doesn’t make them tough. And the US-Iraq connection is discussed only in the left-wing media, rarely in mainstream media. We gave Saddam money and sold him chemical weapons and delpleted uranium, and it doesn’t get discussed nearly enough 2- I never attacked your post. 3- If you are not worried about most American’s political indifference, that worries me. A politically active and voting population is the key to a healthy democracy and we don’t have either to any large extent. 4- Many of my postions are from the New Left, and socialist and communist as well. I also have right-wing and conservative leanings as well. Your point is? Being an independent, you probably have both leftist awa rightist opinions as well. Like I said, life is terribly complex and not black and white.

5- RE polemics: I have not disagreed with anything you said, thus I am not engaging in polemics. It seems as if you feel my post is an attack on you when its not. You’re being overly sensitive.

6- “just because people may disagree with YOU on political issues doesn’t mean debate about those issues is a total waste of time”… No. I said that I didn’t think debating politics on t-mag was worthwhile for me because it seems to be a black hole where people are close-minded and don’t want to listen to opposing arguments. If this grows into a
huge thread, with many people chiming in, great. You’re also proving my point by way of your response btw.

You also didn’t mention anything about what I said in the first half of my thread. Hopefully you found it interesting. I am worried about the state of the US overall and I think that comes through.

And re: Israel, I’m not hijacking a thread. I wrote 2 sentnces out of what- 30? and that’s hijacking a thread?

As far as the Israel issue, it is not so simple- but it is a huge part of the equation nonetheless. I don’t like it when my government doles out over a $100 billion dollars in aid (that figure varies on many factors, including loans which are supposed to be paid back and haven’t been and are not expected to be paid back) to a country where their own prime minister says “Don’t worry about the US government, we control the uS government.” That’s not an exact quote btw. I will try to look it up later.
And yes, many Arab countires use Palestine as an excuse for anti-semitism and anti-americanism.
But please tell me what YOU think about the fact that Saudi Arabia is supposedly one of our closest allies and yet its a fact that many Saudi families are known to be the major funding sources of terrosrist groups? And that the Saudi gov’t doesn’t intervene? What about the fact that the BIN-LADEN family are close partners of the BUsh family? What about what I said about them being allowed to leave the country on a private jet after 9-11? Bush sends young Americans to die in a foreign land against someone who his own FATHER and Reagan supported with money and weapons? So when Saddam was only killing Kurds and Iranians with our gas its OK? These are the serious issues Brian, not my non-existent attacks against you.
And to wrap this up- I am not someone who identifies completely with bleeding-heart liberals, who are hypocritical in their own ways. THough it seems that when they are being hypocritical they make a lot less money than conservatives LOL! For example, school integration and forced busing. In Boston they did it into the poorest white urban area in the US and not in wealthy all white suburbs like Newton and Brookline. I think the tax code does not to be reserved, we need to pay less in taxes but only with massive cuts in defense, law-enforcement and esp coporate welfare. We should have prayer in schools, we were founded as a country with Judeo-Christian ideals and beliefs - if you don’t agree with them, fine, I don’t care if you don’t want your child to say G#d duirng the pledge.
Ok, this is getting ridiculously long.
Never let anyone think for you and be suspicious of those in power…
Peace

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“And the US-Iraq connection is discussed only in the left-wing media, rarely in mainstream media. We gave Saddam money and sold him chemical weapons and delpleted uranium, and it doesn’t get discussed nearly enough”

This is not the thread for it, but in such a discussion, I’d like you to back this broad claim up. Not simply by linking to screeds, please, if you could quote from those articles… The U.S. government allowed Saddam to buy the makings of chemical weapons from American firms at one point, yes.

“If you are not worried about most American’s political indifference, that worries me. A politically active and voting population is the key to a healthy democracy and we don’t have either to any large extent.”

I am worried about political indifference. But I don’t measure indifference by ideological bent that might limit inspection of certain information, in favor of touting other information. The most indifferent people I know and deal with on a regular basis (I don’t hang out with many people who sew American flags into their sweaters) are actually swayed by New Leftist conspiracy theories, and blame-America-first rants. They never investigate them thoroughly because that would require time actually THINKING about complex issues. They’d rather be playing Sega.

“4- Many of my postions are from the New Left, and socialist and communist as well. I also have right-wing and conservative leanings as well. Your point is?”

My point is that those positions have a home in a political camp, and aren’t immune to scrutiny. If I can look askance at Pat Buchanan’s world view, or Noam Chomsky’s, if someone makes a claim that has a niche there, PERHAPS the weaknesses and questionable motives of either of those POVs apply.

“I said that I didn’t think debating politics on t-mag was worthwhile for me because it seems to be a black hole where people are close-minded and don’t want to listen to opposing arguments. If this grows into a
huge thread, with many people chiming in, great. You’re also proving my point by way of your response btw.”

No, I’m not. In my case, what others have wrote have informed me or caused me to question certain ideas. I was simply asking you to broaden your mind about the possibility that these threads affect people’s opinions.

“You also didn’t mention anything about what I said in the first half of my thread.”

I
Hopefully you found it interesting. I am worried about the state of the US overall and I think that comes through.

“And re: Israel, I’m not hijacking a thread.”

That was just cautionary on my part. Hijacking happens a lot. Someone chimes in…

“As far as the Israel issue, it is not so simple- but it is a huge part of the equation nonetheless. I don’t like it when my government doles out over a $100 billion dollars in aid (that”

Like I said, it’s a separate thread [including how the aid will get paid back, whether Ariel Sharon let it slip that Jews control the U.S. goverment(!)], and I didn’t express my support for my country’s mountainous monetary aid to actively anti-American regimes (like Egypt and the slave-trading Sudan)and relationship with Saudi Arabia (which includes military support at HUGE monetary cost).

“We should have prayer in schools, we were founded as a country with Judeo-Christian ideals and beliefs - if you don’t agree with them, fine, I don’t care if you don’t want your child to say G#d duirng the pledge.”

We disagree here.

“Ok, this is getting ridiculously long.
Never let anyone think for you and be suspicious of those in power…
Peace”

We agree here.

As for the SUBJECT of this thread, I think those two letters to the same consituent make John Kerry beyond the pale; as you obviously feel about Bush. I hope to vote for John Edwards.