Atheism does not require faith, it requires reason. We are hardwired for religious belief and the atheist is going against that wiring, whether God or evolution (or both) wired us that way is another matter, by using reason and logic. The problem most religious people have is accepting the irrationality of their beliefs. It doesn’t mean they are wrong.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]bdocksaints75 wrote:
Of all the things that I can’t understand about atheist’s or what have you. Is the fact that they seem to spend most of their time trying to bash religion, or disprove God.[/quote]
Atheist don’t need to disprove god. It’s up to religious types to prove the existence of god, which they haven’t done to this point. Atheists just challenge the logic of religions. Ultimately the only reason people really have to believe in god is faith. Faith is pretty flimsy.[/quote]
I do not believe this is true. First, theists have fulfilled the burden of proof with many logical arguments for the existence of God.
Second, atheists have just as much burden to prove why anything exists, rather than nothing.
This burden of proof shift is false. Removing God from the equation doesn’t make the equation disappear.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Well I found this enlightening…
Is this the real atheism? Has it shown it’s true face?
“Mock them, ridicule them, in public”
“… need to be ridiculed with contempt”
How many atheists believe Richard Dawkins? We should be mocked and ridiculed for our beliefs? This isn’t non-belief, this is raw, pure hatred. I want to hear from atheists, do you practice what is preached?[/quote]
I’m not a fan of what RD was saying in that video but I suspect if we had the full context it wouldn’t sound nearly so bad. RD was probably saying it more in a scientific argument context rather than a social context. If you’re in a social setting you would be a complete jackass to ridicule someone’s religious beliefs.
In a debate it’s reasonable to challenge some of the absurdities of religions. I don’t think it should be done in a ridiculing way but sometimes people will feel ridiculed anyway due to the inherent ridiculousness.
I would be more inclined to challenge the bigger issues with religions than some of the micro-issues like the one RD mentioned about communion. That’s like picking pennies up off the ground.[/quote]
Well this was a rally, not a debate but if you have the full video I would be willing to listen to it for context. Certainly, this is pretty damning stuff on it’s own.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Well I found this enlightening…
Is this the real atheism? Has it shown it’s true face?
“Mock them, ridicule them, in public”
“… need to be ridiculed with contempt”
How many atheists believe Richard Dawkins? We should be mocked and ridiculed for our beliefs? This isn’t non-belief, this is raw, pure hatred. I want to hear from atheists, do you practice what is preached?[/quote]
No an atheist, but pointing at this extreme is no difference the pointing at the religious extremists who do the same thing to atheists, gays, and anyone who doesn’t believe like they do.
It’s simply a bell curve. And those extreme ends get the attention.
I think you know better than to think that is representative of all atheists.[/quote]
Is Dawkins not a prominent leader of the Atheist community? Or is he just the lunatic fringe? He seems pretty mainstream to me.[/quote]
I didn’t know atheists had communities with leaders and all that. I wonder if religious types might have a perception that all people must belong to groups and they have a hard time understanding not belonging to a group. I think atheists are the types who, in addition to not believing in god, choose not to be a part of a group.[/quote]
He’s speaking to a group. How do you explain that away?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So with Fred Phelps dead who will take over as the new Christian? For now I’m going with crazy guy holding the sign at the large public area near where I work.[/quote]
So you liken Richard Dawkins to Fred Phelps?[/quote]
I don’t know about comparisons but he was the first that came to mind. If you had to pick someone to represent Christians in America he is a decent choice you think?[/quote]
No, he is a pig. Worst of the worst and represents a very, very small subset of fundamentalist morons on the lunatic fringe.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Well I found this enlightening…
Is this the real atheism? Has it shown it’s true face?
“Mock them, ridicule them, in public”
“… need to be ridiculed with contempt”
How many atheists believe Richard Dawkins? We should be mocked and ridiculed for our beliefs? This isn’t non-belief, this is raw, pure hatred. I want to hear from atheists, do you practice what is preached?[/quote]
No an atheist, but pointing at this extreme is no difference the pointing at the religious extremists who do the same thing to atheists, gays, and anyone who doesn’t believe like they do.
It’s simply a bell curve. And those extreme ends get the attention.
I think you know better than to think that is representative of all atheists.[/quote]
Is Dawkins not a prominent leader of the Atheist community? Or is he just the lunatic fringe? He seems pretty mainstream to me.[/quote]
I didn’t know atheists had communities with leaders and all that. I wonder if religious types might have a perception that all people must belong to groups and they have a hard time understanding not belonging to a group. I think atheists are the types who, in addition to not believing in god, choose not to be a part of a group.[/quote]
He’s speaking to a group. How do you explain that away?[/quote]
I’ve never heard of the guy. I asked about 15 people I know and none of them have heard of him either. And the population was quite varied from religious to non-religious to college educated and non-college educated.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Dawkins is an asshole. Always has been.
He’s very smart, even more knowledgeable (than he is smart), and he’s got the astronomically better argument vis-a-vis his most direct opponent, which is creationism. But he’s a real asshole.
I think Christians are wrong. I also think lots of other people are wrong about all kinds of things. In fact, there probably isn’t a single person on this planet who doesn’t have at least one belief I think incorrect. If I began publicly mocking people with whom I disagree, I’d quickly find myself friendless (and sexually etiolated: Who has ever dated a man/woman of utterly kindred opinions?)
But Sufi is right. None of you believers have to answer for James David Manning’s public conduct, and no atheist has to answer for Dawkins’.[/quote]
Well you’re right about one thing for sure, I don’t have an answer for James David Manning because I don’t know who the hell he is.
[EDIT] Two things actually, Dawkins is an asshole. And I think he was showing his true colors.
But I don’t think anybody can deny he is a prominent figure and a figurehead for the New Atheist movement. He is considered one of the ‘4 horsemen of Atheism.’ He is a celebrated figure and the face of atheism for many.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]conservativedog wrote:
smh fun fact…what was the first liquid and food consumed on the moon?[/quote]
Yes, I know.
I have always found great irony in this.
Space, which gives us some of the simplest and best reasons to conclude that the Genesis account of creation is fiction, playing host–get it?–to the Sacrament of Communion.[/quote]
It’s allegorical, not a literal account. There are after all 2 creation stories in Genesis.
C’mon Pat, you literally JUST posted this to me a few days ago:
[quote]It seems to me, and ever more apparent that you are readily passing judgement on Christians, Christianity as a whole, etc.
Not by reading theology and dogma, but on the behavior of a few.[/quote]
So with a straight face you run around telling atheists not to judge the whole by the actions of a few and THEN decide to throw this out there?
This thread isn’t worth anyone’s time if you’re going to do exactly what you say others shouldn’t do.
The hypocritical nature of many of your recent posts is stark. You hand wave it away when it’s pointed out to you, but you’re not really fooling anyone. You’re just trying to play some game.
Back to the “ya know Atheism is a religion” stupidity arguments for the 9,000th time. More hypocrisy. You have believers already in this thread mocking and ridiculing atheists. No big deal though right?
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Well I found this enlightening…
Is this the real atheism? Has it shown it’s true face?
“Mock them, ridicule them, in public”
“… need to be ridiculed with contempt”
How many atheists believe Richard Dawkins? We should be mocked and ridiculed for our beliefs? This isn’t non-belief, this is raw, pure hatred. I want to hear from atheists, do you practice what is preached?[/quote]
Pat, I believe that Dawkins has a brilliant mind, and agree with a large portion of what he says. That being said, I also believe that he’s a poor messenger of non-belief. I have a hard time listening to him speak, as he has a very unpleasant personality. I don’t hate the guy, I just think that his personality is very grating.
Listening to Dawkins, makes me miss Hitchens even more.
[/quote]
I would agree that Hitchens is far more affable. I, of course disagree with Hitchens but he was at least a kind, respectful person who enjoyed engaging dialog. I found it interesting that he was eulogized by Protestant minister who was in fact a good friend of his.
My thing is that Dawkins is a prominent leader of the New Atheism movement. He speaks and rattles on and on about the pettiness of religion and yet what he tells this crowd is one of the most petty things I have ever heard.
Dawkins may be very smart in his discipline of evolutionary biology, but on a grander scale as he expounds his discipline to atheism, I find his arguments quite terrible.
The theology he says, that we Christians practice is not even close to reality.
The arguments the he says we make for God’s existence, are a shoddy representation of the actual arguments. He merely tears down strawmen in his book. We don’t believe what he says we believe.
What he is, is a great orator. He is excellent on emotional appeal and knows how to get people going. I find his substance greatly lacking.
And I think this appeal to mock, berate, and ridicule with contempt the beliefs of others is petty and small.
I found some other stuff he said just following up on this and it’s hard to believe an educated man would say such things. Support for infanticide? Berating a woman, who was sexually mutilated as a ‘whiny bitch’ for not liking being propositioned in an elevator, his comments on Hitler, etc. Have painted for me a picture of an angry hateful little man just spitting vitriol on anybody he can hit with it.
I know you don’t agree with any of that stuff, it’s not an indictment on you. I am just saying Dawkins is an asshole. I think well intentioned, reasonable atheists would do well to distance themselves. There are much more reasonable intellectual resources who are able to carry on the conversation without the name calling.
[quote]AceRock wrote:
I don’t believe in God, therefore, I suppose this could be directed at me, in a wildly general sense.
I never voted for Dawkins to be my leader.
Simply because this guy wants to advocate being a jerk in public to other people, he’s now appointed over me and stands as my representative? Calling myself the leader of the free world doesn’t make me the POTUS.
This also implies there is a group or a movement of which to be a leader. This is a false assumption. I don’t have an atheist/agnostic membership card. Or a mensa card, for that matter…
Pat, my man, I don’t believe you believe this.[/quote]
It’s not directed at you, at all.
Richard Dawkins, like it or not, is a very popular, celebrated figure of the New Atheist movement.
I understand, and here it often that atheists claim not to be part of a ‘group’ so to speak. But there are groups, rallies, websites w/ memberships for atheists.
And like it or not, from the outside looking in Dawkins is a leader and a major figure of the New Atheist movement. You may not see yourself as part of a group, but to us dumbass believers, it looks very much like a group, a movement.
Often well people think of atheism, he comes to mind. Whether or not he represents you, he represents your beliefs.
No, I absolutely do not think atheists, as a general rule agree with what Dawkins said here, but some do. I of course had some great conversations with atheists here and elsewhere that was mutually respectful and quite enjoyable.
Whether or not you consider Dawkins ‘your leader’, people associate atheism with Dawkins. If you walk around and tell people you’re atheist, chances are Dawkins is going to come up. And Dawkins is saying the ridiculous petty things. He’s damn sure no doing you any favors.
But no Ace, I certainly didn’t have you in mind when I posted this. I ran across it, and my jaw dropped. I couldn’t believe a supposedly educated and celebrated man would say such nonsense. So I posted it to have a conversation about it.
Who agrees, who disagrees and whatever comes of it. That’s all.
I don’t think you’re a bad guy. I don’t think you’re the type to mock and disparage believers.
You’re certainly entitled to think we are crazy and stupid, but I trust you know how to conduct yourself.
I believe in the transubstantiation, I am a proud, unashamed Catholic. I don’t expect most people here are going to call me names because of it. You may think I am an idiot, but you aren’t going to remove my dignity as a human being because of it. Apparently Dawkins would. And as many arguments as he has lost to theists, he really should be a bit more humble. Or maybe thats why he’s mad. Who knows.
He said something with shock value, so I figured I float it and see how others perceive it.
It’s been a while since I watched this video, but all I remember from it is that the creationist in the video is the rude one and Dawkins is pretty chilled out considering she point blank refuses to acknowledge any of his points.
Dawkins on infanticide:
Dear God!
or Dear nothing!
Do Christians see being religiously persecuted as some sort of rite of passage?
When you live in the West, I guess when there isn’t any real persecution to go around so you make the best with what you’ve got.
Snarky comments from atheists on Internet forums and dumb opinions from Richard Dawkins?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Do Christians see being religiously persecuted as some sort of rite of passage?
When you live in the West, I guess when there isn’t any real persecution to go around so you make the best with what you’ve got.
Snarky comments from atheists on Internet forums and dumb opinions from Richard Dawkins?
[/quote]
Don’t judge us, just let us judge you. Don’t mock us, just let us mock you.
It’s getting tired, this forum is turning into nothing but the same religious discussion over and over again.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Atheism does not require faith, it requires reason. We are hardwired for religious belief and the atheist is going against that wiring, whether God or evolution (or both) wired us that way is another matter, by using reason and logic. The problem most religious people have is accepting the irrationality of their beliefs. It doesn’t mean they are wrong. [/quote]
It does require faith. There is no God and you believe it, but there is no reason to back it up.
Atheists have the same problem as theists philosophically. Why there exists something rather than nothing is still a philosophical problem whether you are theist or atheist.
The theist believes that something, whatever that may be exists because God caused it to exist. Atheists have varying theories on why something exists rather than nothing, but they have very little agreement on what ‘that’ is. They just know it’s not God.
The existence of God can be philosophically argued to be true and though objections do exist, they have yet to be proven.
[quote]H factor wrote:
C’mon Pat, you literally JUST posted this to me a few days ago:
[quote]It seems to me, and ever more apparent that you are readily passing judgement on Christians, Christianity as a whole, etc.
Not by reading theology and dogma, but on the behavior of a few.[/quote]
So with a straight face you run around telling atheists not to judge the whole by the actions of a few and THEN decide to throw this out there?
[/quote]
What are you on about? You didn’t… No you couldn’t have… No you wouldn’t have not read/ misread what I wrote!!! Not you! I mean like I wrote 4 sentences, in the form of questions.
So if I post this and said ‘Here is a guy who is a prominent Atheist respected by many saying some pretty outlandish shit. Who believes in what he is saying?’ That is a passing of judgement?
[quote]
This thread isn’t worth anyone’s time if you’re going to do exactly what you say others shouldn’t do.
The hypocritical nature of many of your recent posts is stark. You hand wave it away when it’s pointed out to you, but you’re not really fooling anyone. You’re just trying to play some game.
Back to the “ya know Atheism is a religion” stupidity arguments for the 9,000th time. More hypocrisy. You have believers already in this thread mocking and ridiculing atheists. No big deal though right? [/quote]
LOL!! Where did you get any of this? For a guy who claims to read what I wrote and know exactly what I said and knows perfectly well you didn’t get it wrong; you missed by a mile.
I mean to the point that I am not sure what you are even responding to. What did I say to warrant the response above? Where did I say atheism is a religion?
Damn man, stay on your meds.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Atheism does not require faith, it requires reason. We are hardwired for religious belief and the atheist is going against that wiring, whether God or evolution (or both) wired us that way is another matter, by using reason and logic. The problem most religious people have is accepting the irrationality of their beliefs. It doesn’t mean they are wrong. [/quote]
It does require faith. There is no God and you believe it, but there is no reason to back it up.
Atheists have the same problem as theists philosophically. Why there exists something rather than nothing is still a philosophical problem whether you are theist or atheist.
The theist believes that something, whatever that may be exists because God caused it to exist. Atheists have varying theories on why something exists rather than nothing, but they have very little agreement on what ‘that’ is. They just know it’s not God.
The existence of God can be philosophically argued to be true and though objections do exist, they have yet to be proven.[/quote]
2+2=4 requires faith.
SMH does a pretty good job of showing you where you come up short philosophically.
No “reason” to back it up is an opinion. It’s your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]H factor wrote:
C’mon Pat, you literally JUST posted this to me a few days ago:
[quote]It seems to me, and ever more apparent that you are readily passing judgement on Christians, Christianity as a whole, etc.
Not by reading theology and dogma, but on the behavior of a few.[/quote]
So with a straight face you run around telling atheists not to judge the whole by the actions of a few and THEN decide to throw this out there?
[/quote]
What are you on about? You didn’t… No you couldn’t have… No you wouldn’t have not read/ misread what I wrote!!! Not you! I mean like I wrote 4 sentences, in the form of questions.
So if I post this and said ‘Here is a guy who is a prominent Atheist respected by many saying some pretty outlandish shit. Who believes in what he is saying?’ That is a passing of judgement?
[quote]
This thread isn’t worth anyone’s time if you’re going to do exactly what you say others shouldn’t do.
The hypocritical nature of many of your recent posts is stark. You hand wave it away when it’s pointed out to you, but you’re not really fooling anyone. You’re just trying to play some game.
Back to the “ya know Atheism is a religion” stupidity arguments for the 9,000th time. More hypocrisy. You have believers already in this thread mocking and ridiculing atheists. No big deal though right? [/quote]
LOL!! Where did you get any of this? For a guy who claims to read what I wrote and know exactly what I said and knows perfectly well you didn’t get it wrong; you missed by a mile.
I mean to the point that I am not sure what you are even responding to. What did I say to warrant the response above? Where did I say atheism is a religion?
Damn man, stay on your meds.[/quote]
You didn’t say atheism is a religion, nor did I say you did. I meant the thread in general. Try and keep up. Also lol at missed your point. Yeah, if you say so. I wouldn’t expect you to respond any other way. Hand gets caught and you say “not what I was saying!”
Also leave the personal attacks out. Remember you’re trying to say you don’t think believers should be mocked and ridiculed in a thread where non-believers are being mocked and ridiculed.
Do try and be consistent Pat. It’s a pet peeve of mine and it makes me seriously roll my eyes when you can’t even follow what you’re telling other people to follow.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]bdocksaints75 wrote:
Of all the things that I can’t understand about atheist’s or what have you. Is the fact that they seem to spend most of their time trying to bash religion, or disprove God.[/quote]
Atheist don’t need to disprove god. It’s up to religious types to prove the existence of god…
[/quote]
Nonsense.
It takes a fair amount of hubris to make this demand. Unmerited hubris.
Atheists have faith. In spades, they have faith.
In fact, it takes far more faith to look at this universe and say, “Nope! Ain’t no God out there, I’m purty darn sure of it.”
[/quote]
[/quote]
Atheism ala Richard Dawkins has a certain dogma to it.
Some people have criticized people of his mind in that their zeal against Theism resembles a sort of dogma about Atheism. I tend to agree.
Also, the first video talks about going to Saudi and criticizing Islam, and that the reaction there would be a lot different. I think this is pretty stupid as well, considering you would get the same result in most places in
Brazil criticizing Christ as you would in Saudi criticizing Islam.
[/quote]
Nobody in Brazil is going to kill you for saying something about Christ. They might kill you for your wallet, but they are not going to hurt you because you insulted Christianity or mock Christians.
If you go to Saudi, or Iran and insult Islam, they will kill you. Your reaching here, trying to make all religious people equally evil.
Did you hear of any terrorism, any death threats, any bombings because of the “Piss Christ”? It sure was offensive, but the artist is alive and well and not living in fear of his life.
I wouldn’t disagree he does it for attention, but to what end, I do not know.