The Nation's Cruelest Immigration Law?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Having illegal cleaning ladies and giving someone food, water, and a bed to sleep in for the night is much different. You both don’t see that?

It’s more like fixing the broken leg of a bear than it is feeding the bear. Big difference. Really you don’t see it?[/quote]

No if you were fixing a broken leg that would be a good analogy. That is not what you are doing, you are teaching them that they can do what they are doing and it is fine. Eventually teach them that if people don’t just open their doors and give to them, they are in the wrong. Creating an even greater entitlement mentality and more of a problem. [/quote]

So if someone is hungry and thirsty and has no shelter…and they are needy…how is that like giving them a job cleaning your house when you give them something to eat, a glass of water, and a cot when in need?

What you’re not getting is that Catholics are called to do the seven corporal works of mercy. This is not optional.

122

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think it’s funny that the underlying cause of all illegal immigrants is being over looked: cheap labor.

I’ll bet that MOST of you railing against the illegal immigrants HATE unions and any labor organization almost as much as you hate the illegal immigration.

I guess you want a magic fairy to wave her magic wand and have the fruit pick itself?

If you want illegal immigration to go away, PAY AN AMERICAN A FAIR WAGE TO DO THE SAME LABOR. A wage they can LIVE on.

But you want an open market and LESS regulation, right?

If you want illegal immigrants to go away, COMPEL companies/corporations to pay their employees a LIVABLE WAGE. With the unemployment rate as high as it is, you’d have plenty of US citizens lining up for those jobs.

BUT, you will then complain that now the cost of the goods and services will go up, right? Well guess what? YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! Either Pay for the cost of US citizens doing the labor and STFU, OOOOOR endure the fact that illegal immigrants will do the work for peanuts, tax our system without contributing, and that SOME will commit crimes (just like there are some US citizens that will commit crimes) BUT keep the cost of goods and services they way they currently are.

Full disclosure: I am still a card carrying member of IBEW Local 26 (Electrical workers) even though I haven’t been paid to touch a screwdriver in years. I know many non-union electricians who cant afford to even live in the city that they work in.

Regarding the OP, I think passing laws allowing officers to stop people and check their papers and then prosecute those who unknowingly aid, abet and harbor “enemies of the state” LOL is a WEE BIT on the Fascist side for my taste. This is the USA, not 1936 Germany.

What if there is a homeless person person at the intersection and I give him a dollar - are they going to arrest me for not checking his immigration status? How does one become qualified to check ALL people’s immigration status? I know that as a bartender, even if someone presents me with a fake ID and I serve them alcohol, if they are underage I AM STILL LIABLE. I see this as a HUGE slippery slope that will simply be used to generate MORE fines and missed days of work to be in court for law abiding regular people. It’s bullshit - we need LESS laws and more freedom, not an other excuse for the government to interfere with our lives, cuz that’s exactly what this law will enable.[/quote]

Word.

123

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think it’s funny that the underlying cause of all illegal immigrants is being over looked: cheap labor.

I’ll bet that MOST of you railing against the illegal immigrants HATE unions and any labor organization almost as much as you hate the illegal immigration.

I guess you want a magic fairy to wave her magic wand and have the fruit pick itself?

If you want illegal immigration to go away, PAY AN AMERICAN A FAIR WAGE TO DO THE SAME LABOR. A wage they can LIVE on.

But you want an open market and LESS regulation, right?

If you want illegal immigrants to go away, COMPEL companies/corporations to pay their employees a LIVABLE WAGE. With the unemployment rate as high as it is, you’d have plenty of US citizens lining up for those jobs.

BUT, you will then complain that now the cost of the goods and services will go up, right? Well guess what? YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! Either Pay for the cost of US citizens doing the labor and STFU, OOOOOR endure the fact that illegal immigrants will do the work for peanuts, tax our system without contributing, and that SOME will commit crimes (just like there are some US citizens that will commit crimes) BUT keep the cost of goods and services they way they currently are.

Full disclosure: I am still a card carrying member of IBEW Local 26 (Electrical workers) even though I haven’t been paid to touch a screwdriver in years. I know many non-union electricians who cant afford to even live in the city that they work in.

Regarding the OP, I think passing laws allowing officers to stop people and check their papers and then prosecute those who unknowingly aid, abet and harbor “enemies of the state” LOL is a WEE BIT on the Fascist side for my taste. This is the USA, not 1936 Germany.

What if there is a homeless person person at the intersection and I give him a dollar - are they going to arrest me for not checking his immigration status? How does one become qualified to check ALL people’s immigration status? I know that as a bartender, even if someone presents me with a fake ID and I serve them alcohol, if they are underage I AM STILL LIABLE. I see this as a HUGE slippery slope that will simply be used to generate MORE fines and missed days of work to be in court for law abiding regular people. It’s bullshit - we need LESS laws and more freedom, not an other excuse for the government to interfere with our lives, cuz that’s exactly what this law will enable.[/quote]

Word.[/quote]
Agreed. You give the government an inch and it becomes a mile. If you let them do this, next thing you know, it could be the War on Drugs, where anyone who does business or rents to a drug dealer/user can be fined. And you guys do know that leads to jail time right? If you don’t pay your fine or present yourself in court for that petty infraction, you go to jail. It’s not jsut dollars were talking about, it’s alot of wasted time and lost freedom to enable a tyrannical government.

Yes, this law is also presumptively prejudiced. Not against Mexicans, but it requires that people make generalization about a person and violate his or her civil rights in doing so. Either soup kitchens card everyone or they card people with lesser English skills or no English skills or because they are ‘foreign looking’.

This is bs, because there is no Official language in the USA, and there is a sizeable portion of legal residents and even citizens who haver lesser or no English skills. Iknow this is a can of worms, but the country has no official language, you can speak what you want and be denied job opportunities for your laziness/hardheadness in assimilatin just as well.

Even instituting that sort of prejudice won’t solve the problem, as take for example, in the city I’m from Saint Louis. We are the second largest Bosnian city int he world, right after Sarajevo with 70k Bosnians, many of them who are staying here on expired Visas, some who even came in through Mexico. These people came froma decent education system and were exposed to English from a young age, and often have minimal to know accent regardless of legal status. They are Europeans, they look entirely caucasian of even a Western European variety.

So if Joe Bartender serves one of those guys he’s going to go to jail? This law is a dangerous precedent and must be opposed by all who favor liberty and oppose gov’t tyranny.

124

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think it’s funny that the underlying cause of all illegal immigrants is being over looked: cheap labor.

[/quote]

No, that’s one of the ‘pull factors’ not an underlying cause.

Correct. Good guess. I bet that MOST people who think 10 million+ illegal Latinos in the US do not comprise a MAJOR fucking social and security problem vote Democrat.

Or with 10% of the country unemployed you could…oh I don’t know, employ some of them perhaps? Perhaps a reduction in welfare might encourage them to consider fruit picking?

That will not make illegal immigration ‘go away’. It is only ONE of many ‘pull factors’.

How would that make the 12.5 million+ illegals ‘go away’?

Only a single pull factor. The US is the only country in the world that has a large, illegal workforce. Why do all these other countries have the same problems with illegals? Could it be that people PREFER to live in western democracies for all sorts of reasons?

125

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
My solution to the problem…

Perform an ICE raid at the worksite, arrest those who cannot prove they are in the country legally, and audit the employment forms. Should illegals be found to be working at the jobsite, the employer is will be told to join E-Verify or face fines. Then deport the illegals who were working there. You solve the problem at both ends, knowing that businesses will be checking to see that employers are legal, and the threat of deportation, will cause many illegals to not even risk going there. Word will get around, that E-Verify is being used, and ICE is raiding and deporting people, they will leave since the risk is too great. This strategy was used at a plant here in Southern California, within hours of the raid, people were showing up with their resume to fill those jobs. Over 200 illegals were deported, and within 2 days the company had rehired people at those positions with very little drop off in output, and the company now uses E-Verify. [/quote]

Yes, it’s all about enforcement.

126

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Having illegal cleaning ladies and giving someone food, water, and a bed to sleep in for the night is much different. You both don’t see that?

It’s more like fixing the broken leg of a bear than it is feeding the bear. Big difference. Really you don’t see it?[/quote]

No if you were fixing a broken leg that would be a good analogy. That is not what you are doing, you are teaching them that they can do what they are doing and it is fine. Eventually teach them that if people don’t just open their doors and give to them, they are in the wrong. Creating an even greater entitlement mentality and more of a problem. [/quote]

So if someone is hungry and thirsty and has no shelter…and they are needy…how is that like giving them a job cleaning your house when you give them something to eat, a glass of water, and a cot when in need?

What you’re not getting is that Catholics are called to do the seven corporal works of mercy. This is not optional.[/quote]

Because it’s still leaving out the cheese.
The Catholic seven corporal works of mercy include aiding and abetting criminals?
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
(Gee, where have we seen this before?)

127

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
It’s really not that big of a difference.
You’re still leaving out the cheese in both scenarios – and cheese is cheese.
But if you insist on creating a distinction, I see two options:

  1. Let the illegal ‘tribe’ fix the broken legs of their own.
  2. Let the immigration authorities fix the broken legs while they are exiting the US

STOP ENABLING, AIDING & ABETTING!

[/quote]

Sorry, I’m not going to ignore a moral duty of helping persons that are needy.

And, I don’t enable, get over it.[/quote]

It’s your moral duty to encourage and help people who are braking the law of the land?
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
Giving them a ‘no questions asked’ place to eat and stay for a week is enabling, aiding & abetting.
Escorting them on the bus back across the border is excellent – Keep up the good charity work!

128

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
misguided church[/quote]

Least my Church helps the sick, poor, and hungry.

…still a moral duty to help persons in need. If they are found to be illegal we send their picture to other soup kitchens/homeless centers.[/quote]

If they are found to be illegal, escort them on a bus across the border!
That’s the best thing you’ve said so far on this whole thread.

129

OK, so here is a not-so-hypothetical question for those of you who are versed in the legal hierarchy of crimes and their punishment…according to severity.

We all know illegal immigrants are thieves (at best).
And I don’t mean the ‘take soap and food’ from the dimestore kind of thief.
Illegals bypass US Immigration policy to come here and mooch off peoples misguided charity, the resources of the land, government programs (including charity & enforcement), etc. To offset – They may pay sales taxes but they aren’t paying income tax.

In an average span of say 10 years…
(1) how much value has the illegal immigrant thief stolen from U.S. citizens?
(2) what would be the corresponding crime and punishment for a U.S. citizen if they stole the same amount?

Obviously, the answer will vary depending upon factors such as location.
A California illegal immigrant is stealing much more than a Kentucky illegal immigrant.

Just wondering how many years IN JAIL, a U.S. citizen would have to spend if they stole the same value as an illegal immigrant.

131

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
OK, so here is a not-so-hypothetical question for those of you who are versed in the legal hierarchy of crimes and their punishment…according to severity.

We all know illegal immigrants are thieves (at best).
And I don’t mean the ‘take soap and food’ from the dimestore kind of thief.
Illegals bypass US Immigration policy to come here and mooch off peoples misguided charity, the resources of the land, government programs (including charity & enforcement), etc. To offset – They may pay sales taxes but they aren’t paying income tax.

In an average span of say 10 years…
(1) how much value has the illegal immigrant thief stolen from U.S. citizens?
(2) what would be the corresponding crime and punishment for a U.S. citizen if they stole the same amount?

Obviously, the answer will vary depending upon factors such as location.
A California illegal immigrant is stealing much more than a Kentucky illegal immigrant.

Just wondering how many years IN JAIL, a U.S. citizen would have to spend if they stole the same value as an illegal immigrant.[/quote]

We spend $14 Billion a year on illegals in California. That includes, education, health care, welfare, lost remittances, and incarceration. Seeing how our deficit is $29 Billion, it is a huge factor.

132

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
OK, so here is a not-so-hypothetical question for those of you who are versed in the legal hierarchy of crimes and their punishment…according to severity.

We all know illegal immigrants are thieves (at best).
And I don’t mean the ‘take soap and food’ from the dimestore kind of thief.
Illegals bypass US Immigration policy to come here and mooch off peoples misguided charity, the resources of the land, government programs (including charity & enforcement), etc. To offset – They may pay sales taxes but they aren’t paying income tax.

In an average span of say 10 years…
(1) how much value has the illegal immigrant thief stolen from U.S. citizens?
(2) what would be the corresponding crime and punishment for a U.S. citizen if they stole the same amount?

Obviously, the answer will vary depending upon factors such as location.
A California illegal immigrant is stealing much more than a Kentucky illegal immigrant.

Just wondering how many years IN JAIL, a U.S. citizen would have to spend if they stole the same value as an illegal immigrant.[/quote]

We spend $14 Billion a year on illegals in California. That includes, education, health care, welfare, lost remittances, and incarceration. Seeing how our deficit is $29 Billion, it is a huge factor.[/quote]

I bet you hate Unions, baby animals and small children as well… you heartless, realist you.

133

BC,

even the bible says people need to be punished for their transgressions, we can see this with some murderers who claim to accept Christ, but realize that the consequences for their actions are death and it is what should happen to them.

oh and hungry and needy is not the same as a broken leg. and even in that line of thinking, a criminal is prosecuted even if they receive help.

Besides if you are doing God’s work, you think you would get to know enough about the person to know whether or not they are illegals, It’s the same as the BS that priests are not supposed to go to the authority if someone confesses a crime to them.

Sweet Revenge,

from my perspective the government is completely hypocritical. They will prosecute a citizen for tax evasion if they don’t pay their taxes but won’t even deport illegals, they won’t file tax evasion, or fraud charges against them. There are a multitude of charges that could be pressed on them.

I think we should put the onus back on the Mexican government to control their border and their criminals. Declare the illegal entry an act of war and give them a certain period to remedy the situation. Otherwise we will fix it for them.

134

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
OK, so here is a not-so-hypothetical question for those of you who are versed in the legal hierarchy of crimes and their punishment…according to severity.

We all know illegal immigrants are thieves (at best).
And I don’t mean the ‘take soap and food’ from the dimestore kind of thief.
Illegals bypass US Immigration policy to come here and mooch off peoples misguided charity, the resources of the land, government programs (including charity & enforcement), etc. To offset – They may pay sales taxes but they aren’t paying income tax.

In an average span of say 10 years…
(1) how much value has the illegal immigrant thief stolen from U.S. citizens?
(2) what would be the corresponding crime and punishment for a U.S. citizen if they stole the same amount?

Obviously, the answer will vary depending upon factors such as location.
A California illegal immigrant is stealing much more than a Kentucky illegal immigrant.

Just wondering how many years IN JAIL, a U.S. citizen would have to spend if they stole the same value as an illegal immigrant.[/quote]

We spend $14 Billion a year on illegals in California. That includes, education, health care, welfare, lost remittances, and incarceration. Seeing how our deficit is $29 Billion, it is a huge factor.[/quote]

I bet you hate Unions, baby animals and small children as well… you heartless, realist you.[/quote]

Yes, I hate Unions, fucking lazy leeches who hide under the protection of never being fired. Baby animals? I love veal, especially at 350 degrees in the oven for 30 mins. Small children? As long as they aren’t mine. Heartless? Hell yes, I am not getting into heaven unless God grades on a curve.

135

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Because it’s still leaving out the cheese.
The Catholic seven corporal works of mercy include aiding and abetting criminals?
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
(Gee, where have we seen this before?)[/quote]

No the seven works include:

Feed the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
Clothe the naked
Shelter the homeless
Visit the sick
Visit those in prison
Bury the dead

136

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
It’s your moral duty to encourage and help people who are braking the law of the land?[/quote]

HOw am I encouraging and helping people break the law of the land? You’re making accusations and you’re not backing them up.

Well, last time I checked I have called into bust 4 houses full of immigrants, and helped another 15-30 illegal immigrants go back to their home.

How is it enabling? I don’t think they are coming into the US so they can eat a crappy bowl of soup, and sleep an old army cot.

Here is some specifics:

150-250 people come through the soup kitchen
We run for an hour.
That is between 2-4 persons a minute through the actual line.
They stay for 5-15 minutes.

To survey all those people is a logistics nightmare, we would need 300 volunteers at each meal

…we have 22 at the moment. We have enough to prepare and serve food and a few others to make sure everything is orderly.

137

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Chris,

Do Catholics have any moral duty to ascertain some basic facts about someone before offering charity to them?[/quote]

Yes, and we do when we can. But we don’t have enough man power to do it.

If we knew about it, yes.

But how would we know that he’s an escaped murderer? Besides having a picture of him?

Yes, because in about the 15 to 30 seconds I am in front of someone it is easy for me to tell if they are an escaped murder or if they are in America illegally.

Most of the people that come through the soup kitchen don’t talk to the volunteers at all. Who would, most of these people when they first come in are embarrassed because they have let themselves go to the point of losing their job and are at a point where they have to resort to going to a soup kitchen so they don’t starve that day. That embarrassment doesn’t go away.

When we find out someone is illegal we call the Sheriff’s department and if we can’t get help then we offer to pay their way back home ourselves. If they will not go, we refuse to give them a cot.

Our aid is not illegal. It is not illegal in Arizona to give essentials to anyone.

Hell if they ask for water and we don’t give them a glass of water we can be sued and criminally tried for endangerment.

138

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
BC,

even the bible says people need to be punished for their transgressions, we can see this with some murderers who claim to accept Christ, but realize that the consequences for their actions are death and it is what should happen to them.

oh and hungry and needy is not the same as a broken leg. and even in that line of thinking, a criminal is prosecuted even if they receive help.[/quote]

You are not getting it, these are essentials to life. Illegals do not come over here so they can eat in soup kitchens and cots. If they wanted to do that, there is plenty of soup kitchens and crappy beds in their country that the Catholic Church provides.

Yes, I get to know about people so much in the few seconds I see them when they are usually too embarrassed to say anything besides thank you and God bless you.

Um, you do realize that a confession has a seal? A priest by oath is not allowed to divulge what is told to him in confession? That is not BS. A priest cannot break that oath in the case of threat of his own life, imprisonment, the life of another, &c. if he does he is excommunicated.

140

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Chris,

I think you are being a bit disingenous here.

The soup may take 30 secs, but the cot bit? Doesn’t that involve somewhat more interaction? Aren’t they there for the night, providing ample time to chat a bit with each? In fact, don’t you all have a “no weapons” policy that means you’d HAVE to spend some time with each person doing a check? And, in fact, somebody has to explain the general rules of the facility to these people, no?

I have trouble believing that you couldn’t do a pretty decent job of sorting out the illegals if you wanted to. [/quote]

I’m with chris on this so long as the law is not broken. Unfortunately it often has been.