The Nation's Cruelest Immigration Law?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Brother Chris,

So if a prisoner breaks out of prison, should you harbor them to help them, fix their wounds, given them food and care for them?[/quote]

Fix their wounds, yes. Give them food and care, yes. You should also call the police and let them know that their is a fugitive in your house. But be careful, he might try and kill you.

[quote]Now if you want to go to the prison to offer help support by all means, that is fine. But the other is harboring fugitive and a punishable offense.

I see it the same way. [/quote]

Okay…I think you’re missing the part where Catholic Charities doesn’t actually ask people if they are illegal immigrants, they ask if they are in need and help them. So, it is illegal and therefore a crime to help an illegal immigrant (even if he is hungry and thirsty and needs to get out of the elements), but since that’s not a question on our questionnaire (read: we don’t have a questionnaire) the Church is put in a bad position…if we help needy and one of them happens to be an illegal immigrant…The rest of the needy gets penalized because the charity gets stripped of its license or fined or whatever.

42

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Fix their wounds, yes. Give them food and care, yes. You should also call the police and let them know that their is a fugitive in your house. But be careful, he might try and kill you.

Okay…I think you’re missing the part where Catholic Charities doesn’t actually ask people if they are illegal immigrants, they ask if they are in need and help them. So, it is illegal and therefore a crime to help an illegal immigrant (even if he is hungry and thirsty and needs to get out of the elements), but since that’s not a question on our questionnaire (read: we don’t have a questionnaire) the Church is put in a bad position…if we help needy and one of them happens to be an illegal immigrant…The rest of the needy gets penalized because the charity gets stripped of its license or fined or whatever. [/quote]

I understand the dilemma, but don’t a majority of Catholics also vote democratic, don’t a majority of them vote for the expansion of governmental control of our lives. they have voted themselves into this predicament.

43

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The issue of giving mercy to those broke the law should go to those who are remorseful and will not do it again.[/quote]

So, you’re saying in order for me to give someone charity…I have to make sure first they are here legally?

That depends on what you mean by charity.

Of course, not I don’t intend to facilitate someone’s immoral behavior.

Charity is reward?

Again, define charity. If you mean aid, then yes. But getting into the country illegally does not mean you are allowed to stay in the country illegally or at all. If amnesty is the charity you intend to give, then yes it would be a reward, and should not be allowed.

Lol. What? Is this some kind of argument? The Catholic Church shouldn’t give charity to those in need (if they happen to be illegal immigrants), because over 35 years ago there was a small group of homosexual priests who liked to have sex with minors.

And, the reason why SOME of the Bishops didn’t correct their priests is many reasons, but if you wish to discuss it make another thread. Don’t throw red herrings out now.

Which laws are they not enforcing? I didn’t even know you studied Canon Law. [/quote]

The Church has been known to be hypocritical, and shows that in this case of illegal immigration. The Church is blurring the line between kindness and weakness, and it does so intentionally. Ideas like turning the other cheek become moot, when you run out of cheeks to turn. Not everyone wants forgiveness, because in my eyes, forgiveness comes with the intent of not doing the action again. So when I bring up priests (and I don’t mean that all priests do this), who molest kids, their primary focus should not just be on turning the other cheek, but providing safety from such actions to begin with.

In the words of my father (my biological dad), sono nato a sera, pero non stasera (I was born at night, but not last night). I can offer forgiveness, but not at the cost of you doing the same shit over and over.

44

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Brother Chris,

So if a prisoner breaks out of prison, should you harbor them to help them, fix their wounds, given them food and care for them?[/quote]

Fix their wounds, yes. Give them food and care, yes. You should also call the police and let them know that their is a fugitive in your house. But be careful, he might try and kill you.

[quote]Now if you want to go to the prison to offer help support by all means, that is fine. But the other is harboring fugitive and a punishable offense.

I see it the same way. [/quote]

Okay…I think you’re missing the part where Catholic Charities doesn’t actually ask people if they are illegal immigrants, they ask if they are in need and help them. So, it is illegal and therefore a crime to help an illegal immigrant (even if he is hungry and thirsty and needs to get out of the elements), but since that’s not a question on our questionnaire (read: we don’t have a questionnaire) the Church is put in a bad position…if we help needy and one of them happens to be an illegal immigrant…The rest of the needy gets penalized because the charity gets stripped of its license or fined or whatever. [/quote]

For every illegal alien who gets passed our Border Patrol, every single citizen is penalized through their finances for having to pay for their needs, including education, welfare for their kids, incarceration, and deportation. But the Church apparently does not seem to complain about that ?

Also, Churches are exempt from taxes, imposing their costs on others in some form, but still, no one complains about that.

45

[quote]MaximusB wrote:]

Okay…I think you’re missing the part where Catholic Charities doesn’t actually ask people if they are illegal immigrants, they ask if they are in need and help them. So, it is illegal and therefore a crime to help an illegal immigrant (even if he is hungry and thirsty and needs to get out of the elements), but since that’s not a question on our questionnaire (read: we don’t have a questionnaire) the Church is put in a bad position…if we help needy and one of them happens to be an illegal immigrant…The rest of the needy gets penalized because the charity gets stripped of its license or fined or whatever. [/quote]

For every illegal alien who gets passed our Border Patrol, every single citizen is penalized through their finances for having to pay for their needs, including education, welfare for their kids, incarceration, and deportation. But the Church apparently does not seem to complain about that ?

Also, Churches are exempt from taxes, imposing their costs on others in some form, but still, no one complains about that. [/quote]
Not every illegal is involved in illegal activities beyond being here. Most are here because they are working.

Shouldn’t conservatives be pushing for migrant worker laws that include taxation on earnings? Restricting cheep labor is not in the best intrest of the free market.

46

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It bears repeating over and over…

Illegal aliens cost U.S. Taxpayers aprox. 113 BILLION dollars annually.

[/quote]

Pea…

…nuts.

That is all.

47

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Let’s see, punishing people for acting charitably to their neighbors…nope, nothing could go wrong with this idea.[/quote]

Yep. Just ask Victor Kugler and Johannes Kleiman.

48

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:]

Okay…I think you’re missing the part where Catholic Charities doesn’t actually ask people if they are illegal immigrants, they ask if they are in need and help them. So, it is illegal and therefore a crime to help an illegal immigrant (even if he is hungry and thirsty and needs to get out of the elements), but since that’s not a question on our questionnaire (read: we don’t have a questionnaire) the Church is put in a bad position…if we help needy and one of them happens to be an illegal immigrant…The rest of the needy gets penalized because the charity gets stripped of its license or fined or whatever. [/quote]

For every illegal alien who gets passed our Border Patrol, every single citizen is penalized through their finances for having to pay for their needs, including education, welfare for their kids, incarceration, and deportation. But the Church apparently does not seem to complain about that ?

Also, Churches are exempt from taxes, imposing their costs on others in some form, but still, no one complains about that.
Not every illegal is involved in illegal activities beyond being here. Most are here because they are working. [/quote]

“Shouldn’t conservatives be pushing for migrant worker laws that include taxation on earnings? Restricting cheep labor is not in the best interest of the free market.”

Funny how I get no response on this comment, just keep having the conversation they want you to have, Illegals are bad. They are taking jobs and a drain on social services, blah blah blah. Currency and investment have no borders. You can stop illegal immigration all you want, but if the work force is cheaper somewhere else corporations will move the jobs over there. Secondly, if you believe in a free market then you should support migrant workers and taxation to pay for the services they are using. Criminalizing and jailing illegals is stupid. Deportation fine, but putting them in jail is dumb.

As for what BC is getting at I agree that to take away a charities status or make them refuse to help someone because they are illegal is not a good law. We cannot trust our courts to use commonsense on these issues. Just look at the wiretapping situation as it is being used against the public in filming police and public servants. That was not what those laws were intended for by any stretch of the imagination. It is only liberal news outlets that seem to be covering these type of stories as well. There seems to be this consensus on the right that if you got arrested then you must have been in the wrong. It makes the world simple but it is not reality.

49

No one is an illegal immigrant. They are illegal aliens.
I can’t say I agree with churches offering food is a criminal offense.

50

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52

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Fix their wounds, yes. Give them food and care, yes. You should also call the police and let them know that their is a fugitive in your house. But be careful, he might try and kill you.

Okay…I think you’re missing the part where Catholic Charities doesn’t actually ask people if they are illegal immigrants, they ask if they are in need and help them. So, it is illegal and therefore a crime to help an illegal immigrant (even if he is hungry and thirsty and needs to get out of the elements), but since that’s not a question on our questionnaire (read: we don’t have a questionnaire) the Church is put in a bad position…if we help needy and one of them happens to be an illegal immigrant…The rest of the needy gets penalized because the charity gets stripped of its license or fined or whatever. [/quote]

I understand the dilemma, but don’t a majority of Catholics also vote democratic, don’t a majority of them vote for the expansion of governmental control of our lives. they have voted themselves into this predicament.

[/quote]

I’m not sure if a majority do, I have never seen statistics. However, I can see as to why they might have. Help the poor, well that is about it.

But, I don’t think most Catholics are educated enough to vote “Catholic” they are more of a Post-JFK, modernist NICOs, than faithful to the Church Catholics that we had before the 1950’s. Stealing from citizens (which the Church views income tax and other such taxes as theft) is definitely not something someone entrenched in the teachings of the Church would be willing to vote for.

53

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The issue of giving mercy to those broke the law should go to those who are remorseful and will not do it again.[/quote]

So, you’re saying in order for me to give someone charity…I have to make sure first they are here legally?

That depends on what you mean by charity.

Of course, not I don’t intend to facilitate someone’s immoral behavior.

Charity is reward?

Again, define charity. If you mean aid, then yes. But getting into the country illegally does not mean you are allowed to stay in the country illegally or at all. If amnesty is the charity you intend to give, then yes it would be a reward, and should not be allowed.

Lol. What? Is this some kind of argument? The Catholic Church shouldn’t give charity to those in need (if they happen to be illegal immigrants), because over 35 years ago there was a small group of homosexual priests who liked to have sex with minors.

And, the reason why SOME of the Bishops didn’t correct their priests is many reasons, but if you wish to discuss it make another thread. Don’t throw red herrings out now.

Which laws are they not enforcing? I didn’t even know you studied Canon Law. [/quote]

The Church has been known to be hypocritical, and shows that in this case of illegal immigration. The Church is blurring the line between kindness and weakness, and it does so intentionally. Ideas like turning the other cheek become moot, when you run out of cheeks to turn. Not everyone wants forgiveness, because in my eyes, forgiveness comes with the intent of not doing the action again. So when I bring up priests (and I don’t mean that all priests do this), who molest kids, their primary focus should not just be on turning the other cheek, but providing safety from such actions to begin with.

In the words of my father (my biological dad), sono nato a sera, pero non stasera (I was born at night, but not last night). I can offer forgiveness, but not at the cost of you doing the same shit over and over. [/quote]

Well, “seven times seventy-seven.” But, I digress.

Yes, Catholics tend to be hypocrites, not because that is what the Church teaches us, but because of human fallen nature. That is why we’re Catholic in the first place is because we’re sinners.

The reason for the lack of justice, or as you put it rule following is because of a weird idea that came along with modernism, which taught that punishment was against love. Think of when the idea that spanking was always abuse came about, this idea came with that mentality.

The truth is, along with this mentality the Bishops forgot that they were Judges along with being Shepard and Priests, they seemed to forget to enforced the Canon Law. Not all of them, but there were some who did. Those are the one’s that allowed such crimes to happen.

Though, that was a few decades ago and since then Canon Law has started to be enforced. The Bishops have also been told by the last two Popes that when such crimes are brought to their attention the civil authorities should be contacted and the said priest should be suspended from public ministry until an investigation is undertaken.

54

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
For every illegal alien who gets passed our Border Patrol, every single citizen is penalized through their finances for having to pay for their needs, including education, welfare for their kids, incarceration, and deportation. But the Church apparently does not seem to complain about that ?[/quote]

Actually we do. I do at least, and I know Bishops that do. But, I guess no one reports that stuff when comes to the MSM.

Hell, John Paul the Great and other Popes talked against government welfare, taxation of people’s wages, &c. Just no one reports that stuff and don’t pay attention unless you pay attention to the Catholic media.

That’s because they are non-profit. The United States doesn’t tax non-profit organizations.

55

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Sorry Chris. I wasn’t attacking you just pointing out what seems to me a strange position. But as you say the title is posed as a question. However, I was also thinking about your assertion that the Afghan war does not fit the criteria of a bellum iustum.

Now regarding decriminalisation. Even though something may be decriminalised it doesn’t mean that it is not a criminal offence. Decriminalisation in practice merely moves something into the misdemeanor category. It is still a ‘criminal offence’ but criminal penalties are removed.

Lastly, I’m not sure what you mean by illegal aliens who haven’t entered a country illegally. If they are illegal aliens then they HAVE entered a country illegally. What’s more they have taken the place of legal migrants in doing so.[/quote]

Okay on the first part. And, my thinking of the Afghan conflict not fitting bellum iustum wouldn’t have anything to do with immigration. I’m not an expert in bellum iustum, but those that are and what I can figure out on my own it seems as if it is not.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t those who have expired visas (work, student, &c) considered illegal immigrants?[/quote]

Yes they are. The difference with people who have overstayed their visa is that the government knows who they are and have already deemed them suitable to enter the country. People who cross borders illegally have obviously been through no such checking process. They could be people of bad character(i.e. criminal), drug smugglers, terrorists or even intelligence operatives of another country.

Yes, the Afghan war has nothing to do with immigration but I was explaining why I find it difficult to understand some of your moral positions. I am not knowledgeable about just war theory but if the Afghan war doesn’t meet the requirements then I don’t know what other war in history would. But that’s a subject for another thread.

56

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure if a majority do, I have never seen statistics. However, I can see as to why they might have. Help the poor, well that is about it.

But, I don’t think most Catholics are educated enough to vote “Catholic” they are more of a Post-JFK, modernist NICOs, than faithful to the Church Catholics that we had before the 1950’s. Stealing from citizens (which the Church views income tax and other such taxes as theft) is definitely not something someone entrenched in the teachings of the Church would be willing to vote for.[/quote]

At least here in PA it is that way, it is a tradition so to speak. It is how Obama won a state that clings to it’s bibles and it’s guns. The people here are a majority catholic and wouldn’t listen to, he is pro abortion, against the church and so on. They burried there heads and said we are catholic and vote democrat. I mean we had PACs called Catholics for Obama.

57

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:]

Okay…I think you’re missing the part where Catholic Charities doesn’t actually ask people if they are illegal immigrants, they ask if they are in need and help them. So, it is illegal and therefore a crime to help an illegal immigrant (even if he is hungry and thirsty and needs to get out of the elements), but since that’s not a question on our questionnaire (read: we don’t have a questionnaire) the Church is put in a bad position…if we help needy and one of them happens to be an illegal immigrant…The rest of the needy gets penalized because the charity gets stripped of its license or fined or whatever. [/quote]

For every illegal alien who gets passed our Border Patrol, every single citizen is penalized through their finances for having to pay for their needs, including education, welfare for their kids, incarceration, and deportation. But the Church apparently does not seem to complain about that ?

Also, Churches are exempt from taxes, imposing their costs on others in some form, but still, no one complains about that.
Not every illegal is involved in illegal activities beyond being here. Most are here because they are working. [/quote]

“Shouldn’t conservatives be pushing for migrant worker laws that include taxation on earnings? Restricting cheep labor is not in the best interest of the free market.”

Funny how I get no response on this comment, just keep having the conversation they want you to have, Illegals are bad. They are taking jobs and a drain on social services, blah blah blah. Currency and investment have no borders. You can stop illegal immigration all you want, but if the work force is cheaper somewhere else corporations will move the jobs over there. Secondly, if you believe in a free market then you should support migrant workers and taxation to pay for the services they are using. Criminalizing and jailing illegals is stupid. Deportation fine, but putting them in jail is dumb.

As for what BC is getting at I agree that to take away a charities status or make them refuse to help someone because they are illegal is not a good law. We cannot trust our courts to use commonsense on these issues. Just look at the wiretapping situation as it is being used against the public in filming police and public servants. That was not what those laws were intended for by any stretch of the imagination. It is only liberal news outlets that seem to be covering these type of stories as well. There seems to be this consensus on the right that if you got arrested then you must have been in the wrong. It makes the world simple but it is not reality. [/quote]

Excuse me, but I was out all day speaking with an assemblyman on how to overturn a bullshit bill that will probably pass.

Ok, so getting back to your question.

Taxation laws on migrant workers are worthless, because taxing those who make nearly nothing is not worth them being here in the first place. They would not qualify to declare taxes since their overall income would be minimal, so the idea of taxing them but letting them stay is worthless because they do not make up the costs they consume.

Like I mentioned before, if you mean charity that you help with food, water, and shelter, that’s fine. But that is not grounds for amnesty. So when you think about jailing illegal aliens, we are being perfectly charitable. We are housing, feeding, and attending to any medical needs, and then sending them back. So I don’t see how we are not “charitable.” Breaking into my home does not automatically make you a member of my family.

You clearly didn’t read the law, which states…“upon a lawful stop or contact with police…” That does not mean you are being yanked off the streets and asked about your immigration status. The idea of having your papers as a foreigner on your person are not new, they were a part of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

As far as cheap labor, what is the difference between shipping jobs to China, or importing cheap workers ? If anything, importing cheap workers costs more because of the costs they incur with living here (welfare, education, incarceration, foreign remittances, health care).

If anything, this is kind of a Leftist issue, by leveling the playing field for worker’s wages and not allowing some foreign clown to low-ball every guy with a skill.

58

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Fix their wounds, yes. Give them food and care, yes. You should also call the police and let them know that their is a fugitive in your house. But be careful, he might try and kill you.

Okay…I think you’re missing the part where Catholic Charities doesn’t actually ask people if they are illegal immigrants, they ask if they are in need and help them. So, it is illegal and therefore a crime to help an illegal immigrant (even if he is hungry and thirsty and needs to get out of the elements), but since that’s not a question on our questionnaire (read: we don’t have a questionnaire) the Church is put in a bad position…if we help needy and one of them happens to be an illegal immigrant…The rest of the needy gets penalized because the charity gets stripped of its license or fined or whatever. [/quote]

I understand the dilemma, but don’t a majority of Catholics also vote democratic, don’t a majority of them vote for the expansion of governmental control of our lives. they have voted themselves into this predicament.

[/quote]

I’m not sure if a majority do, I have never seen statistics. However, I can see as to why they might have. Help the poor, well that is about it.

But, I don’t think most Catholics are educated enough to vote “Catholic” they are more of a Post-JFK, modernist NICOs, than faithful to the Church Catholics that we had before the 1950’s. Stealing from citizens (which the Church views income tax and other such taxes as theft) is definitely not something someone entrenched in the teachings of the Church would be willing to vote for.[/quote]

I can offer a very small bit of anecdotal evidence from a pool of one that certain Catholics will vote Democrat despite the present day Democratic party being pretty much the embodiment of everything the Catholic church is not.

JFK.

My grandmother will NEVER vote for any party other than the Democrats because that was the party of JFK and don’t you try and tell her no different!

We beg and plead with her every year to recognize the things she is supporting, but she is not having any of it.

Luckily, she lives in Texas, so it doesn’t matter.

59

Mostly I’m okay with the law.

That said theres a really ugly undercurrent to it thats mostly veiled racism. Now I’m against anyone being in the country illegally but I can’t help but believe that a Ukranian post doc who “forgets” to renew their visa will not get the same sort of scrutiny that a Costa Rican migrant worker will.

As for the churches being charged for aiding them I’d agree with an expemtion for them if they gave up their tax exempt status.

60

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

“Shouldn’t conservatives be pushing for migrant worker laws that include taxation on earnings? Restricting cheep labor is not in the best interest of the free market.”

Funny how I get no response on this comment, just keep having the conversation they want you to have, Illegals are bad. They are taking jobs and a drain on social services, blah blah blah. Currency and investment have no borders. You can stop illegal immigration all you want, but if the work force is cheaper somewhere else corporations will move the jobs over there. Secondly, if you believe in a free market then you should support migrant workers and taxation to pay for the services they are using. Criminalizing and jailing illegals is stupid. Deportation fine, but putting them in jail is dumb.

As for what BC is getting at I agree that to take away a charities status or make them refuse to help someone because they are illegal is not a good law. We cannot trust our courts to use commonsense on these issues. Just look at the wiretapping situation as it is being used against the public in filming police and public servants. That was not what those laws were intended for by any stretch of the imagination. It is only liberal news outlets that seem to be covering these type of stories as well. There seems to be this consensus on the right that if you got arrested then you must have been in the wrong. It makes the world simple but it is not reality. [/quote]

Excuse me, but I was out all day speaking with an assemblyman on how to overturn a bullshit bill that will probably pass.

Ok, so getting back to your question.

Taxation laws on migrant workers are worthless, because taxing those who make nearly nothing is not worth them being here in the first place. They would not qualify to declare taxes since their overall income would be minimal, so the idea of taxing them but letting them stay is worthless because they do not make up the costs they consume.

Like I mentioned before, if you mean charity that you help with food, water, and shelter, that’s fine. But that is not grounds for amnesty. So when you think about jailing illegal aliens, we are being perfectly charitable. We are housing, feeding, and attending to any medical needs, and then sending them back. So I don’t see how we are not “charitable.” Breaking into my home does not automatically make you a member of my family.

You clearly didn’t read the law, which states…“upon a lawful stop or contact with police…” That does not mean you are being yanked off the streets and asked about your immigration status. The idea of having your papers as a foreigner on your person are not new, they were a part of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

As far as cheap labor, what is the difference between shipping jobs to China, or importing cheap workers ? If anything, importing cheap workers costs more because of the costs they incur with living here (welfare, education, incarceration, foreign remittances, health care).

If anything, this is kind of a Leftist issue, by leveling the playing field for worker’s wages and not allowing some foreign clown to low-ball every guy with a skill. [/quote]

I have no problem with stoping illegals. Never argued that illegals should be allowed to stay. Are you going to completely stop illegal alians from coming here? Do you believe that you can even make a significant dent in this issue with a law like this? There are claims of lofty imaginations from conservatives against liberals, but this is ripe. You believe this law is going to make a significant change in illegal aliens and healthcare costs, ect ect ect? I expect to see some major dollars spent on litigation despite finding that checking papers is legal. Give it time there will be abuses of this law by authority just like any other.

You also still cling to this idea that there is something to be gained for american workers by not allowing illegals to do menial jobs. It is a joke. More and more produce is already coming form mexico. I for one would personally prefer that the oversight and profits go to ammerican farmers not mexico. No one is going to pay more for this type of labor and americans are not lining up to do it for next to no pay. Even if they did pay more then the cost of the items would go up and the consumer would not be able to afford it anyway and turn to the cheaper product from mexico.

I see two options. One embrace the free market whole heartily which is what is driving us towards a bigger and more intertwined global economy, which in turn will lead us to globalization and less and less control to be had for nations. The second being taking an isolationist approach. Get rid of all illegals, stop immigration, stop importation, essentially become a self reliant producing nation again.

There is in reality a third that would be a combination of the 2 but we don’t have reasonable solutions in this country.