The More I Work Arms, the More They Shrink

[quote]derek wrote:
juanjromero wrote:
Man, i am already doing 20rep squat, big (to my size) deadlifting and getting strenght. it is just working on advance for the days to come. But thanks for your words of encourage.

dude, it is awesome how that routine slightly changed my body, but changed it. i know you may be sceptical. but I have pics. bad ones (cell phone). I see the muscles on my legs popping out and cutting. those were not like that 1 month ago.

Yes, 20 rep squats WILL make you grow “right now”. Too much history and my own success to be skeptical.

Keep going on them buddy.

How much weight have you added to the squats since you started? Have you been adding the 5lbs per session?

[/quote]

Yes, every day. (don’t forget the milk)

[quote]juanjromero wrote:

Yes, every day. (don’t forget the milk)[/quote]

Absolutely! Whole milk. Can you buy raw milk where you live?

I wake up from my fat guy dream on octuber 2006.
I decided to diet to get my fat down. I reached 168. I has been always around 154.

My sister, who is a trainer, prepared a diet to me. taking care of:
Enough energy to work, carbs are needed to be focused. and slow to no bounce back. She knew my food preferences too. She teach me to eat 5+ times a day and how to cut the food. food values. etc. Later I discovered fitday. from there I reach my goal of being 139pound on february 22 of 2007. I reached. no pills no magic. Just morning runs, and things like that.

She insisted me on december 2006, that because I am “old” and lost fat, I should do something light just to tone my body. I never before in my life considered bodybuilding, so I bought a couple of db and a small bench wiht 100pounds. I read from internet and started to do my ligth curls and bench. I was like a 13yo boy. i was like that from january to july. I saw changes. On July 20th I decided go to the gym. the guys never tought I will come back the next morning and did not accept my pay on advance. I started to learn with real olympic bars and weights.

On bodybuilding terms I did nothing from july-december, but learn every possible excercise i discovered the bb.com excercise database and prepared my routines just to learn the movements. One of the trainers which has more time than me, invited me to shift from morning to noon to train with him. I did, he forced me to increase weight, which I was not doing. but he liked to work on high rep range and my body was not prepared for 3 sets of 15-18 reps. I felt tired all the time I started to lost weight. all that year I prepared my food myself, I cook and selected components having perfect control on what I ate. but the effort was too much. the routine was not for me.

On december 2007, I took the end of year week end off and I went back to the gym on evening, january 2th. since then I go that time, i did start taking animal pack, I did started to increase my whey intake. I decided to eat every 2 hours. I decided to plan my workouts with precision 2 weeks on advacen and created my motto: “Stick to the plan”. Whenever I feel I am going to fail, i think:“stick to the plan”. If one guy comes along to tell me something I close my ears and repeat to myself: “stick to plan”. and since then has happenned what I mention before. now I have a chest not boobs. My legs are not the birthday candle stick that use to be. and keep researching an planning to in that way: “Stick to the plan”

[quote]derek wrote:
juanjromero wrote:

Yes, every day. (don’t forget the milk)

Absolutely! Whole milk. Can you buy raw milk where you live?[/quote]

Yes, grass feed.

I must admit that I am driven by proportions and Zane is my model. not to be like him but as an example of what male body should look like.

[quote]juanjromero wrote:
derek wrote:
juanjromero wrote:

Yes, every day. (don’t forget the milk)

Absolutely! Whole milk. Can you buy raw milk where you live?

Yes, grass feed.[/quote]

Wow! Do you buy it and drink it? Lucky.

Yeah, Zane is a great role model.

[quote]derek wrote:
juanjromero wrote:
derek wrote:
juanjromero wrote:

Yes, every day. (don’t forget the milk)

Absolutely! Whole milk. Can you buy raw milk where you live?

Yes, grass feed.

Wow! Do you buy it and drink it? Lucky.

Yeah, Zane is a great role model.[/quote]

there is a neighbour who own a farm.

[quote]juanjromero wrote:
about chest, I do it because I had a hard time benching and shifted to db just to get stronger enough, I was an skinny fat guy before, with no sport background, my chest consisted on a thin fiber as thick as a pen, I laugh when i think about. I use db for atacking different angles, and bar just to make it grow i go heavy on bar.
[/quote]

Oh, ok then. You meant DB bench, not DB curls (which is a biceps exercise). In that case it’s a great exercise (personally I feel it’s better than flat BB) and I’m all for continuing it.

Although Im not exactly huge compared to some natural BBs, I have totally experienced what you are going through, but have made quite a lot of progress. I experienced the same thing with my arms at one point (they apparently shrank when doing more direct work). I used to only have 12.5 inch arms, now they range from 15 to 16 inches (depending on BF %).

I believe that like you, I was doing too much direct work on my arms (while not eating enough) and therefore overtraining them. Its so obvious I cant believe that no one else seems to have picked up on it on here.

Overtraining comes from either:

Lack of sleep
Lack of calories
Too much training

There’s two types of overtraining, theres:

Central nervous system overtraining

and

Muscle overtraining (dont know the exact name)

You can be gaining on other body parts but not the body part that you are overtraining (if its just muscle overtraining), but if you are CNS overtraining, no body part will grow.

I used to do an upper body split about 2 times per week and I used to neglect lower body exercises, therefore the workout volume was pretty low. I don’t do that anymore though.

I THOUGHT I was eating enough for my body type (Ectomorph) but I wasn’t. I then decided to add direct arm work to make them grow, but although they felt harder and more solid, my arms “seemed” to shrink! This was a combination of loosing fat and overtraining (both types).

If you are loosing size around your waist, you are NOT going to be gaining muscle (except in very rare circumstances). Id even go as far as saying that its difficult to even maintain fat while gaining muscle. Its far easier to gain fat and muscle together; that�??s usually a sure sign that you are growing muscle, and then diet down later. Always focus on one goal at a time, you are either trying to get huge, or you are trying to get lean. Trying to do both at once will lead to no progress or very slow progress.

Obviously you need to take into account that when you are only just eating enough to maintain your weight or even make yourself gain slightly, and when you add more exercises; it takes up more calories! And whats worse is that you will likely overtrain due to this and shrink!

If you add more exercises to your routine you need to add more calories to your diet too. If you are eating moderate calories you have to keep workout volume low. Its only if you are eating extreme calories when you can handle high volume work and grow.

Thats another reason why you THINK you never grew on a 8 to 10 rep range; its because your workout volume was higher and also when the rep range is higher it is more metabolically challenging (i.e. you burn more calories) and therefore will need to eat more to over compensate. Most BB’s grow really quickly if they go from a low rep range (e.g. 4-6) to a high one (e.g. 8-10)…only if you eat enough.

I started eating more and noticed more gains…but it wasn’t until I ate extreme amounts (4500-6000 cals / day) until my arms started growing. I realized that adding in exercises like Squats and Deadlifts almost doubled my metabolism…so I had to eat even more to compensate.

If you have a metabolism like mine, you may need about 3000 cals to maintain your weight (2000-2500 to loose), but you’ll need almost double that in order to Grow!

Eggs, cream and peanut butter are a Ectomorphs best friend…(just dont eat high carbs and high fat in the same meal).

Thanks buddy, most of your post is a great contribution.

I think you put the finger on the spot, because as I already said I cycle my food volume trying to keep it above 3250, I know sometimes this is hard to be certain, maybe I have not adjusted enough my food intake.

Of the list of reasons to not grow, I am kind of noctamble, so i sleep just 6-7 hours.

I am not aiming to fat loosing, I was there and I don’t care, before it was an effort to lose fat, now it happens without me wanting. All the other body parts are growing, weight is increasing, and still gut is not, overall shape is changing, I am pretty sure is muscle.

I already has that ones on my diet, but thanks for make be certain of their use.

I will try to just eat, as I said early, but I am not sure of what will happen to my body if I let increase the bf% too much, I already has a high blood pressure problem under control. I don’t want sickness on pursuit of hugeness. but still I will incrase food intake in an slowly and controlled way.

Remember that as you grow, your caloric demands increase along with your weight.

3,500 may be enough to grow now, but 6 months down the road you may need another 300-500 to keep new growth coming.

I am only 29 years old but I do not think 40 is too old to grow at all. Many people have told me that they had their best gains in their 30s and 40s. I know it has been easier to gain strength now than it was at 20. However, this could be from a better standard of living since I did not know much about nutrition back then and all my life consisted of was being harassed by assignments and tests. I did not sleep as regularly as I do now either.

Anyway, it could be this guy has his arms shrinking from overtraining them. The arms and shoulders get quite a bit of work from all pressing and pushing for the upper body and some jackasses still feel the need to blitz a small muscle group like biceps with 12 to 20 sets. The same goes for shoulders which also take a pounding in the squat and deadlift, all variations.

This might not be the best advice, but I have noticed that pre exhaust and drop sets have worked better than anything at bringing up my lagging chest and hamstrings. Perhaps one can try it for arms. Try a triceps extension followed by close grip bench presses or triceps 1/4 dips. My chest workout looks like this:
2 bust ass sets to failure or 1 or 2 short of failure on the big exercises
Incline flies (two drops)
Incline dumbbell press, 2 straight sets
Pec deck, 2 drop sets (two drops per set)
Dumbbell flat bench press, 2 straight sets

You could try perhaps:
Extension (isolation)
Close grip bench (compound)
Pushdowns (isolation)

and for bis:
Concentration curls (isolation)
Standing barbell curl (isolation but a bigger exercise)
Machine preacher curl (isolation)

[quote]derek wrote:
Remember that as you grow, your caloric demands increase along with your weight.

3,500 may be enough to grow now, but 6 months down the road you may need another 300-500 to keep new growth coming.[/quote]

A fabulous point indeed.

Thats ok, no probs!

If you are eating enough (including enough protein) you will be gaining weight no matter what. Whether most of the gains will be fat/muscle will depend on your training. You should be gaining around 1-2 lbs per week if you are still relatively new to BB (i.e. under 2 years of solid training/eating). If you aren’t gaining this amount per week then you are short-changing yourself.

One mistake when you first start BB is only relying on the tape measure. Although most “gurus” tell you never to depend only on the scales, it is a great indicator of overall muscle gain. When I first started BB my weight hardly moved. For the first period I lost fat and gained muscle (so weight was maintained). The next period I slowly gained an “amazing” 10lbs through what I thought was “bulking” (about 2500 cals). Gains screeched to a halt. The scale didn’t budge but my measurements fluctuated up and down by about 1/8th of an inch each week. Later I started focusing on adding weight to the scale. Through more calories I started gaining weight and my measurements went up fast and didn’t go down.

The reason I think you’ve been mislead into believing you are eating enough is because when you first start BB your body always grows to certain extent even if you aren’t overloading the calories. Your anabolic hormones seem to be primed and make up for the lack of calories. Firstly you tend to burn fat while gaining small amounts of muscle. This was enough to throw me when I first started BB; I didn’t realize how much calories someone with my metabolism really need.

At first I grew on 2000-2500 cals / day! When your body is only used to crappy little snacks etc and being sedentary, it responds really well when it’s forced into BB. But as your body begins to grow and it gets used to the workload it gets more efficient and muscle growth slows. Not only this but since your muscles are now bigger, they need more calories to maintain them; you have a bigger engine and therefore need more fuel to run it. So now, not only do you need more fuel to maintain your newly built bigger engine, you need yet more calories on top of that to grow further.

Don’t get too caught up with exact calorie amounts. Trust me, if eating 2800 calories is what you need to maintain your weight, eating 3000 isn’t going to make you grow much (if any). When aiming for goals, round them up and make them clear-cut. When you want to gain weight don’t spend hours trying to work out how much calories you burn in a week (this will never be 100% accurate). Just use a generous formulae (one designed for high metabolism and hectic lifestyle) and start from there.

For example:

160lbs guy = 160 x 24

= 3840 cals

Round that off to 4000 cals. Some days you may eat 4000 cals, other days it may be 3600 cals - there will always be variation.

If the scale doesn’t budge after a week of this, increase cals further by another 500 cals (although it’s very unlikely this 160lb guy wouldn’t grow on that amount)

As soon as you gain about 2 inches on your stomach, diet down while maintaining your muscle. The major difference between gaining muscle and loosing fat is calories. The only change to your training when dieting is maybe a slight reduction in volume.

As regards health, it isn’t unhealthy to be eating what your body needs to grow. A 150lb slob who were to eat what a 220lb BB eats is unhealthy. Besides, you don’t bulk all year around.

Cholesterol levels causes a lot of anxiety in most people, but it’s not irreversible. If you had high blood cholesterol, you can bring it down in weeks through a good diet (e.g. high in fresh fish/nuts/eggs etc). Saturated fat is counteracted by the “good fats”. Contrary to what many people think, eggs are full of good fats and actually cause your cholesterol levels to drop. The “bad fats” clog up, while the “good fats” clean up. If you balance out the bad fats with good, there’s no need to worry (provided you aren’t grossly overdoing total calories). Even if your cholesterol levels are bad just now, it’s easy to fix with the good fats.

Also, people have a phobia of saturated fat; as if you’ll instantly die upon eating too much of it! I ate 300 grams of saturated fat EVERY day for a whole year! And guess what? My cholesterol levels were still only 4 (5 and over is bad)! Shame I didn’t check them before that freaky diet just to see if they actually went up much. Besides, your body needs fat (at least 15% of macronutrient balance) in order to produce testosterone.

To take in this high amount of calories, simply make your shakes the high protein and high fat meals, and make your solid meals the high carb and low fat meals. So you could have 3 shakes, and 3 solid meals. For example:

  1. Solid:
    Porridge and protein shake

  2. Liquid
    1 pint milk
    Peanut butter
    Eggs
    Protein powder

  3. Solid
    Meat and potatoes

  4. Liquid
    1 pint milk
    Peanut butter
    Eggs
    Protein powder

  5. Solid
    Chicken and rice

  6. Liquid
    1 pint milk
    Peanut butter
    Eggs
    Protein powder

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Thats ok, no probs!

If you are eating enough (including enough protein) you will be gaining weight no matter what. Whether most of the gains will be fat/muscle will depend on your training. You should be gaining around 1-2 lbs per week if you are still relatively new to BB (i.e. under 2 years of solid training/eating). If you aren’t gaining this amount per week then you are short-changing yourself.

[/quote]

This has been a terrific advice, because traced a clear path to follow. thank, thanks, thanks a lot. I will aim to increase my weight gains to 1-2 pounds, because I am limiting myself taking just 1/2 pound per week as enough.

I will redesign my diet. Milk was already included, but adjustments need to be made.

Read my new thread Juan.

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I am only 29 years old but I do not think 40 is too old to grow at all. Many people have told me that they had their best gains in their 30s and 40s. I know it has been easier to gain strength now than it was at 20. However, this could be from a better standard of living since I did not know much about nutrition back then and all my life consisted of was being harassed by assignments and tests. I did not sleep as regularly as I do now either.

[/quote]

When talking with Coach Poliquin I learned that the best years of growing are between 32 and 35. So at 40 your growth potential is still there.

Here are some examples that I personally witnessed. Granted they relate more to strength, but it still applies.

  • When I was training at the Canadian National Center (Olympic lifting) we had a guy who was 67 years old who clean and jerked 125kg (275lbs) … it was a power clean BTW, power snatched 92.5kg (204lbs) and push pressed 140kg (308lbs) for 5 reps!!! While this is amazing enough, the most impressive part is that he actually STARTED training at 55 years of age!

  • A good friend of mine deadlifted 600lbs, full squatted 550lbs x 5 and cleaned 170kg (375lbs) at 48 years of age.

  • Another friend of mine is still competing in bodybuilding closing on 60. He has done 112 bodybuilding shows and at his age he can still destroy most young bucks you see strutting their stuff in gyms around the country.

  • I met a guy at the gym where I have my office. The guy is 45 years of age and looks fantastic. 5’9’', 210lbs with abs, strong as a bull too. He even competed once in bodybuilding and won his class. I asked him if he had been training for long… turns out that he started at 42 when he read an article about ‘‘how to look like a bodybuilder without being one’’ in a popular magazine. In that time frame he added around 40lbs of solid muscle.

[quote]juanjromero wrote:
its_just_me wrote:
Thats ok, no probs!

If you are eating enough (including enough protein) you will be gaining weight no matter what. Whether most of the gains will be fat/muscle will depend on your training. You should be gaining around 1-2 lbs per week if you are still relatively new to BB (i.e. under 2 years of solid training/eating). If you aren’t gaining this amount per week then you are short-changing yourself.

This has been a terrific advice, because traced a clear path to follow. thank, thanks, thanks a lot. I will aim to increase my weight gains to 1-2 pounds, because I am limiting myself taking just 1/2 pound per week as enough.

I will redesign my diet. Milk was already included, but adjustments need to be made.

[/quote]
if you are placing yourself at a personal limit of 1/2 pound a week and you are meeting that goal without gaining fat then there is no problem just keep doing what you are doing.

you have to understand that sometimes things dont grow how you want them to grow just keep at it with a solid program and things will come.

and also if I read right that you had a problem sticking to the higher rep program that someone was working with you on? maybe I got that wrong
but if I may reiterate
stronglifts 5x5 its a very easy program to get you into the swing of things.simple compound lifts amd it will work you but you wont get tired of it because it takes 45 mins to an hour if everything is done right.

I have a template of it I got directly off the website if you would like pm me with an email address for you and I can send it to you.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Bricknyce wrote:
I am only 29 years old but I do not think 40 is too old to grow at all. Many people have told me that they had their best gains in their 30s and 40s. I know it has been easier to gain strength now than it was at 20. However, this could be from a better standard of living since I did not know much about nutrition back then and all my life consisted of was being harassed by assignments and tests. I did not sleep as regularly as I do now either.

When talking with Coach Poliquin I learned that the best years of growing are between 32 and 35. So at 40 your growth potential is still there.

Here are some examples that I personally witnessed. Granted they relate more to strength, but it still applies.

  • When I was training at the Canadian National Center (Olympic lifting) we had a guy who was 67 years old who clean and jerked 125kg (275lbs) … it was a power clean BTW, power snatched 92.5kg (204lbs) and push pressed 140kg (308lbs) for 5 reps!!! While this is amazing enough, the most impressive part is that he actually STARTED training at 55 years of age!

  • A good friend of mine deadlifted 600lbs, full squatted 550lbs x 5 and cleaned 170kg (375lbs) at 48 years of age.

  • Another friend of mine is still competing in bodybuilding closing on 60. He has done 112 bodybuilding shows and at his age he can still destroy most young bucks you see strutting their stuff in gyms around the country.

  • I met a guy at the gym where I have my office. The guy is 45 years of age and looks fantastic. 5’9’', 210lbs with abs, strong as a bull too. He even competed once in bodybuilding and won his class. I asked him if he had been training for long… turns out that he started at 42 when he read an article about ‘‘how to look like a bodybuilder without being one’’ in a popular magazine. In that time frame he added around 40lbs of solid muscle.[/quote]

Wow, I am impressed with all that examples. I don’t use the age as excuse. I state it because I want to make clear my condition.

I think I can grow and reach that level. I don’t feel I am restricted by age, I can see the changes in my body and my only concern is to take the most from every action. Like the 5’9" guy, it is very impresive. At first I tougth I was too short for that range of body weight. there is new people on my gym asking me how long I trained and they get impressed when I say I have less than a year, there are few hardcore bb on my gym of course.

I will stick and make the adjustments on diet and training. I am researching a little more to improve on that area. I am now working on strength, just to improve me and handle better the weigths that make me grow.

By the way, I had an amazing squatting day today and I did stick to the plan.

Thanks for your words, it encouraged me a lot more.

[quote]juanjromero wrote:

because I am limiting myself taking just 1/2 pound per week as enough.

[/quote]

This is probably the conservative approach to BB for a beginner (but pretty decent gains for someone advanced). Quite a lot would recommend this way of BB at any level because they’d rather only diet down when they really have to and would rather stay in great shape all year round.

This is good to a certain extent because I’ve tried bulking and I did it for far too long. This is a very big mistake to make because you have to spend ages dieting all the fat back off (going from 40 inch belly to 32 inch isn’t fun!). As everyone knows, for a BB, dieting is pretty depressive since your muscles tend to feel flatter and you don’t expect to see gains in muscle mass.

This is the misconception most people have about bulking though - they think that it has to be done for months and they don’t want to look like muscley “blobs” half the year. But it doesn’t have to be like this. You could bulk for 3 weeks, and diet for 3 weeks. The closer you are to having muscle gains higher than fat gains, the longer you can bulk. Conversely, the more fat you want to loose, the longer the diet phase will last. If you keep doing short cycles of bulking and dieting, you’ll stay lean and gain massive amounts of muscle. You are zigzagging. There will be no mistakes of underestimating the needed calories for gaining muscle. Plus, you will have a life (instead of overly worrying about counting calories) because there is a pretty large margin for error. You likely will not get in the total amount of calories that you are supposed to get in every day, but this won’t matter since it was overestimated to start with.

The reason why I favor this approach above the conservative approach of trying to gain as least amount of fat as possible is because its easy and pretty much “fail proof”. For example, when you are only just eating enough calories to gain (which is pretty difficult), there is a fine line between gains and maintenance. One week of activity is never the same as another. One week, your body may need 2400 cals to maintain, and another it may require 2800 cals. So if you were only eating enough to gain (e.g. 500 cals plus 2400 cals maintenance), then in the second (more active) week you’d just be maintaining on that amount.

This is another reason why I say have clear goals in your head. Humans respond much better (and with more zeal/focus) when they have short-term goals. With the method of zigzagging, although you may gain more fat (in the short term) than with a conservative approach, your goals are clear-cut (plus easy to attain).

To illustrate:

Doing the same thing for 10 months with 50% intensity/effort/focus is not as good as doing something for only 6 months with 100% intensity/effort/focus.

So instead of trying to do everything “perfectly” and then get discouraged and lethargic/lost when gains stop; do it roughly and with 100% zeal and then “sweep up” the “mistakes” with the diet phase.