The Israel War Thread

[squating_bear]

@jshaving

Are you okay with the idea

What do you mean by this part?

@jshaving

as it exists now

What do you mean by this part?

@twojarslave

@jshaving

@squating_bear - Are you okay with the idea of the state of Israel, as it exists now, continuing to exist?

Yes or no, please.

I second this. Enough with the semantic and theological quibbling. Cut to the chase and state your opinion.

Yes or no is fine.

Yes or no may fit your purposes fine - it doesn’t for me. My opinion is that the state of Israel needs to change. It changing is more preferable and urgent than it existing.

I prefer Israel to change, find peace, and continue to exist sooner, rather than ceasing to exist later. That might be naive, but it accurately reflects my values.

I would like to note that saying “yes” would be easy, but I would rather put in more effort to avoid being deceptive. I’m ok with people having whatever ideas they want, but insofar as my words influence them, I would like for that influence to be positive

[Bauber]

@squating_bear

rather than ceasing to exist later

If Israel ever ceases to exist, the entire middle east will cease to exist.

[RT_Nomad]

@squating_bear

Is that Children of Israel or the state?

From my interpretation of the Bible this is a distinction without a difference.

@squating_bear

Has the state of Israel tried bringing in the Kingdom of God by force?

No. They are trying to bring in the kingdom of heaven (earthly kingdom.) The Old Testament has many prophesies of a coming Messiah. The Jews just failed to see that Jesus was the Messiah, because He came first as Saviour but did not also come as King (Who will bring in the kingdom of heaven at the second advent of Christ.)

The kingdom of God is the spiritual kingdom, which is presently here, and has been since the risen Christ (or some say His baptism by John.) Either is fine with me.

(Once again this is my interpretation of the Bible.)

[RT_Nomad]

@Silyak

I guess that depends on how you define martyr and Bible

The question was Christian martyrs, as I understood what was asked.
But I should have qualified that when responding.

[zecarlo]

@squating_bear

In Christianity, can a martyr not be someone that died in battle while standing up for his beliefs?

No. Christian martyrs emulate Christ.

[zecarlo]

@Silyak

Perhaps, but the martyr status

There is no perhaps. Christian martyrs do not shed any blood but their own.

[zecarlo]

@squating_bear

I can recall two that might imply what you’ve written, and it’s from the top of my head

You aren’t a middle easterner so you don’t understand the Arabic influence that permeates Islam.

[squating_bear]

@RT_Nomad

@squating_bear

But is it of any value?

I wanted to establish what the value would have been first

And that is a possible situation. Just know that any logic applied by either side is meaningless when the premises cannot be agreed upon.

My position is that a person who esteems logic will not attempt to reason for their conclusions if the premises are not agreed.

Well I am not sure what you mean by this part, I wasn’t arguing for my conclusion, I was arguing against someone else’s

I haven’t taken a study in the terminology of formal logic since high school geometry - I guess I don’t remember what a premise is. I learned syllogism but forgot. I was pretty good at logic, computer programming, logical electrical circuits in college, and dealing with interconnected layers of tangled messes. But I might be a little like a foreigner on some of the terminology.

I hold logic as a core value and love it, but it’s not my one and only, and I might not live up to what you would expect for one who does so.

[squating_bear]

@Bauber

@squating_bear

rather than ceasing to exist later

If Israel ever ceases to exist, the entire middle east will cease to exist.

The entire universe will cease to exist

What if Israel were to someday collapse from within? Would you still nuke the entire middle East?

[squating_bear]

@RT_Nomad

@squating_bear

Is that Children of Israel or the state?

From my interpretation of the Bible this is a distinction without a difference.

Well I know there are a lot of Jews that disagree with you based off of their understanding of the Bible, which wouldn’t make you wrong of course, but I’m just curious have you looked into why they think that?

[squating_bear]

@RT_Nomad

@squating_bear

Has the state of Israel tried bringing in the Kingdom of God by force?

No. They are trying to bring in the kingdom of heaven (earthly kingdom.) The Old Testament has many prophesies of a coming Messiah. The Jews just failed to see that Jesus was the Messiah, because He came first as Saviour but did not also come as King (Who will bring in the kingdom of heaven at the second advent of Christ.)

The kingdom of God is the spiritual kingdom, which is presently here, and has been since the risen Christ (or some say His baptism by John.) Either is fine with me.

(Once again this is my interpretation of the Bible.)

Thank you for the explanation.

[Bauber]

@squating_bear

The entire universe will cease to exist

Lol no.

The universe does not revolve around the middle east.

@squating_bear

What if Israel were to someday collapse from within?

That may be possible given enough time, but we won’t see that day, so it is irrelevant.

[squating_bear]

@zecarlo

@squating_bear

I can recall two that might imply what you’ve written, and it’s from the top of my head

You aren’t a middle easterner so you don’t understand the Arabic influence that permeates Islam.

Heh, but you of course are and do?

[jshaving]

@squating_bear

My opinion is that the state of Israel needs to change. It changing is more preferable and urgent than it existing.

So, no.

You are not okay with Israel existing as it does now.

When you say, “change,” how would you like it to change?

[squating_bear]

@jshaving

When you say, “change,” how would you like it to change?

The first two that come to my mind are stop bombing Gaza and stop supporting Hamas. Someone asked for my opinion kindly enough and I gave it - it’s not a threat.

[squating_bear]

@zecarlo

@squating_bear

In Christianity, can a martyr not be someone that died in battle while standing up for his beliefs?

No. Christian martyrs emulate Christ.

Can a human do that while being Muslim?

[twojarslave]

@squating_bear

My opinion is that the state of Israel needs to change. It changing is more preferable and urgent than it existing.

I prefer Israel to change, find peace, and continue to exist sooner, rather than ceasing to exist later. That might be naive, but it accurately reflects my values.

You’re a good enough writer to explain yourself clearly, but you’ve chosen to be very vague here.

[fitafter40]

He is afraid to answer the question

[mnben87]

@squating_bear

@jshaving

When you say, “change,” how would you like it to change?

The first two that come to my mind are stop bombing Gaza and stop supporting Hamas.

I may be ignorant to some of the details. I do not pretend to be an expert here. The last part here had me scratching my head though. How is Israel supporting Hamas? Are you saying that Israel needs to ensure that aid they provide to Palestinians does not go to Hamas? Something else?

[RT_Nomad]

@squating_bear

Well I know there are a lot of Jews that disagree with you

Of course they do. They are seeking the fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant. They were promised a a piece of land through the seed of promise. They are trying to claim that land. They failed to see the Saviour, because He was not also the King, and thus are still preparing for the coming King. The Bible, as I understand it, says that the Jews will get their promised land by Force (by Jesus as King and not their will) in the Millennial Kingdom as a result of the second advent of Christ.