The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

This I did not know. Dimona was built with French technology. How did Israel steal fissile material? I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”

[/quote]

What, google doesn’t work for you?

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2011/Dec-05/155997-israel-stole-uranium-from-us-report-will-show.ashx#axzz30MaiyGTK

http://www.irmep.org/ILA/numec/[/quote]

“The evidence available for our 2010 Bulletin article persuaded us…”

It didn’t persuade John Emshwiller at the Wall Street Journal though. Nor Brzezinski who had access to FBI/CIA unredacted reports and investigated it in the 70’s. Uranium went missing after Shapiro left NUMAC. I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just saying that the evidence is inconclusive.[/quote]

Of course it’s inconclusive. The Mossad is fucking bad ass. But the evidence there, coupled with some private conversations with people that I’ve personally had, is enough to convince me that they did steal from us.

Look, I admire Israel in many ways. I am in no way suggesting that we cut ties or that they are not an “ally” or anything like that. I’m saying that when I try to OBJECTIVELY look at the relationship between Israel and the US, that it’s a one sided relationship. One would also have to be blind not to see that for it’s relative size and population, Israel has WAAAAAAY more influence (in all levels of our society) than any other country. Again, I accept it for what it is, but I think that it is not necessarily in AMERICA’S best interest to keep a country so close when it obviously cares only about it’s own survival, yet at the same time, provokes it’s neighbors.

I would submit for your consideration that without the US backing it up, they wouldn’t be building settlements.

Look at the position that puts us in. Israel swings it’s proverbial dick around the neighborhood and no one can retaliate because of us. So they all hate us. It’s a less than ideal situation and it’s unbalanced.[/quote]

I’d disagree that Israel ‘provokes its neighbours.’ Its neighbours launched three major unprovoked wars against them. They’re surrounded by people who want to wipe them out. And not because they’re ‘stealing land’ - that’s merely a pretext for the pathological anti-Semitism in the Muslim world.

Neither is it reasonable to say Muslims hate the US because they support Israel. They hate the US because its the most powerful nation on earth and leader of the free world. That’s why all the Communist countries in South America hate the US too.

I don’t support everything Israel does unquestioningly. And I think you’re probably right about the Apollo Affair. But I think a close relationship with Israel is in both countries’ interests. [/quote]

I agree that it’s in both of our interests to be allies - I’ve been pretty clear about that. My point is that given the blanket of protection and financial support that we provide them, I feel they don’t respect OUR interests with many of their policies and actions. Make no mistake, that area is a powder keg waiting to go off. Their war WILL become OUR war and American troops will die as a result.

For example, operation Pillar of Cloud where Israel extensively bombed civilian targets would have warranted sanctions if ANY other country did it.

I get that Israel faces it’s own internal power struggles. And there are extremists on both sides that live to wipe the other one off the map. But when those extremists are allowed to control policy, it puts the balance in a very tenuous position and the US, as their ally, underwrites that risk.

It’s a fucked up position we’re in and I’m sick and tired of Americans dying in the desert over shit that has nothing to do with us. [/quote]

Israel did not target civilians in Operation Pillar of Cloud. You can always find leftists who say they did but when you look into specifics you find it’s nonsense. And I’m not sure what you mean by Americans dying for things that have nothing to do with you. The Iraq War was initially opposed by Israel. They only showed support later when it became clear that the US was resolved to invade. They were showing support for their ally even though they were against the war. The Iraq war was entirely a pet project of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Perle. It had nothing to do with Israel.

42

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

This I did not know. Dimona was built with French technology. How did Israel steal fissile material? I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”

[/quote]

What, google doesn’t work for you?

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2011/Dec-05/155997-israel-stole-uranium-from-us-report-will-show.ashx#axzz30MaiyGTK

http://www.irmep.org/ILA/numec/[/quote]

Yes, Google works; its algorithm finds the most popular sites, not the most truthful sites. I just wanted to know your references; I admit I was not aware of these allegations.

By the way, if Numec was a reprocessing plant, was the fissile material “stolen?” How do we know that the CIA was not covertly cooperating with the transfer of material? Notice, please, that after 40 plus years, no action has been taken.

I find the fourth entry particularly interesting. See the Jan 10, 1969, comment by Glenn Seborg.

43

I’m also curious about how hundreds of pounds of uranium would be clandestinely transferred to Israel. It would have to be transported in a lead container greatly adding to its weight. Was it transported in a diplomatic pouch? That would probably require more than a hundred separate packages.

44

I use Wiki for a quick overview and supposedly neutral point of view.

But I will also quote extensively from it because it is clearly NOT endorsing the view that “stolen” “fissile” material wound up in Israel:
[i]"In his 1991 book, The Samson Option, Seymour Hersh concluded that Shapiro did not divert any uranium; rather “it ended up in the air and water of the city of Apollo as well as in the ducts, tubes, and floors of the NUMEC plant.”[7] He also wrote that Shapiro’s meetings with senior Israeli officials in his home were related to protecting the water supply in Israel rather than any diversion of nuclear material or information.[7] A later investigation was conducted by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (successor to the AEC) regarding an additional 198 pounds of uranium that was found to be missing between 1974 and 1976, after the plant had been purchased by Babcock & Wilcox and Shapiro was no longer associated with the company. That investigation found that more than 110 pounds of it could be accounted for by what was called “previously unidentified and undocumented loss mechanisms”, including “contamination of workers’ clothes, losses from scrubber systems, material embedded in the flooring, and residual deposits in the processing equipment.”[7] Hersh further quoted one of the main investigators, Carl Duckett, as saying “I know of nothing at all to indicate that Shapiro was guilty.”[7]

In 1993, Glenn T. Seaborg, former head of the Atomic Energy Commission wrote a book, The Atomic Energy Commission under Nixon, Adjusting to Troubled Times which devoted a chapter to Shapiro and NUMEC, the last sentence of which states:

[u]Distinguished as Shapiro's career has been, one cannot but wonder whether it might not have been even more illustrious had these unjust charges not been leveled against him.[8][/u]

Later U.S. Department of Energy records show that NUMEC had the largest highly enriched uranium inventory loss of all U.S. commercial sites, with a 269 kilograms (593 lb) inventory loss before 1968, and 76 kilograms (168 lb) thereafter.[9]

At the prompting of Zalman Shapiro’s lawyer, senator Arlen Specter asked the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) to clear him of any suspicion of diversion in August 2009. The NRC refused, stating:

NRC found no documents that provided specific evidence that the diversion of nuclear materials occurred. However, consistent with previous Commission statements, NRC does not have information that would allow it to unequivocally conclude that nuclear material was not diverted from the site, nor that all previously unaccounted for material was accounted for during the decommissioning of the site.[10]

In 2014, further documents about the investigation were declassified, though still heavily redacted.[2][3]

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is overseeing a cleanup of contaminated land at the site of NUMEC’s waste disposal, currently scheduled to be completed in 2015.[11][/i]"

Neither Seborg nor Hersh had anything to gain by lying about this affair. Maybe the Army Corp of Engineers will come up with a figure for the lost material.

46

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

…Israel…provokes it’s neighbors…

[/quote]

Huh?
[/quote]

No , i agree , Israel has the size of ____________________________oh my balls :slight_smile:

47

And if they have more it is because of GOVERNMENT :slight_smile:

48

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

…Israel…provokes it’s neighbors…

[/quote]

Huh?
[/quote]

No , i agree , Israel has the size of ____________________________oh my balls :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Say what?

49

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

…Israel…provokes it’s neighbors…

[/quote]

Huh?
[/quote]

Building settlements in territory occupied by the six day war? The UN and all of the international community say that the settlements are illegal and has completely rejected Israel’s premise for the occupation. The US over the years has vacillated on the issue, but MOST administrations have condemned the settlements as “illegitimate” (cuz they don’t want to use the word “illegal” on one of our allies). Yet Israel persists in building them and occupying them. It is one of the major barriers to peace in that region and it furthers the conflict which is against the interest of the United States.

Imagine if ANOTHER country attempted to occupy the territory of it’s neighbor based on the premise that “well, we captured the territory fair and square”? Oh wait… That’s happening right now isn’t it? But where are the sanctions against Israel?

Basically Israel, by it’s actions, is saying, “fuck the rest of the world, we’ll do what we want (but please protect us and give us money, Uncle Sam)”. The position would be fucking hilarious if it weren’t the source of so many people dying.

You don’t consider that provocative?

50

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

…Israel…provokes it’s neighbors…

[/quote]

Huh?
[/quote]

Building settlements in territory occupied by the six day war? The UN and all of the international community say that the settlements are illegal and has completely rejected Israel’s premise for the occupation. The US over the years has vacillated on the issue, but MOST administrations have condemned the settlements as “illegitimate” (cuz they don’t want to use the word “illegal” on one of our allies). Yet Israel persists in building them and occupying them. It is one of the major barriers to peace in that region and it furthers the conflict which is against the interest of the United States.

Imagine if ANOTHER country attempted to occupy the territory of it’s neighbor based on the premise that “well, we captured the territory fair and square”? Oh wait… That’s happening right now isn’t it? But where are the sanctions against Israel?

Basically Israel, by it’s actions, is saying, “fuck the rest of the world, we’ll do what we want (but please protect us and give us money, Uncle Sam)”. The position would be fucking hilarious if it weren’t the source of so many people dying.

You don’t consider that provocative?[/quote]

The Jordanians illegally annexed Judea/Samaria in 1950. The Israelis subsequently reclaimed it in a defensive war.

“Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title. (“What Weight to Conquest,” American Journal of International Law, 64 (1970))”

51

Also note, UN general assembly resolutions are not legally binding. Additionally, article 80 of the UN charter states:

‘nothing in the [U.N.] Charter shall be construed…to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or peoples or the terms of existing international instruments.’

This would include article 6 of the mandate which encouraged “close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands not required for public use.”

Then there’s the fact that the UN is notoriously anti-Israel - see ‘Zionism is racism’ resolution or Colonel Gaddafi leading the Human Rights Council.

52

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Also note, UN general assembly resolutions are not legally binding. Additionally, article 80 of the UN charter states:

‘nothing in the [U.N.] Charter shall be construed…to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or peoples or the terms of existing international instruments.’

This would include article 6 of the mandate which encouraged “close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands not required for public use.”

Then there’s the fact that the UN is notoriously anti-Israel - see ‘Zionism is racism’ resolution or Colonel Gaddafi leading the Human Rights Council.[/quote]

I know, I know, EVERYONE is against the Jews, right? Give me a fucking break, dude. If the UN sides “against” them, that makes them anti Semitic? Then why is the United States calling the settlements illegitimate? Is the US anti Semitic too? Oh wait, we give them money and protect them. So which one is it? Israel just wants to have it both ways: it wants to be recognized as a mature international player, but yet it STUBBORNLY refuses to give an INCH or compromise on issues that could lead to peace. Right or Wrong, when the ENTIRE WORLD says what you are doing is wrong, and you do it anyway, you are wrong… Even when you are right.

And who gives a shit about a few houses in the desert? If Israel were serious about peace, it would stop building settlements and just stick to it’s recognized territory. But it wants to be “RIGHT” more than it wants peace (which I could give two fucks about except for the fact that if THEY go to war, WE will be dragged into it). As I said in my original post on this topic: it’s a very immature position.

Let me clarify it one more time. I have NOTHING against Israel as a country or as a people or whatever. I think they are a shitty ALLY given their behavior and the significant aid and protection that the US provides.

Here’s another analogy: If you are subsidizing your nephew, Isaac, to live on his own in his own apartment, to encourage his responsibility you set some guidelines: go to work every day, no parties, keep the place clean, don’t do anything that causes the cops to show up. Easy guidelines, right? So a few weeks go by and you see that he’s having parties. You talk to him about it and remind him that YOU are the one PAYING for the place and he should respect the agreements. He says, “yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, Uncle Sam”. He then proceeds to have another party. You show up and he’s drunk, and it turns out that he has stolen several bottles from your liqueur cabinet, and tells you, “FUCK YOU, Uncle Sam, this is MY place!”.

A reasonable person would say, “oh really? Then enjoy PAYING for your place” and cut the immature little fucker off. But that’s not what Uncle Sam does. Uncle Sam feels guilty that he wasn’t there for young Isaac when he had troubles in his youth, so he continues to pay for the apartment. Now we all know that is a situation that is DOOMED to repeat itself over and over again until Isaac pulls his head out of his ass, or Uncle Sam cuts him off and gives Isaac the gift of missing him, which would serve to allow him to pull his head out of his ass quicker.

I hope I didn’t offend anyone with that analogy, I was being a bit facetious and funny with it. But the fact remains: we give them money and protect them. They should respect that and follow our foreign policy wishes. If they want to put on their big boy pants and say fuck the world, they should do on THEIR dime, not on the American Taxpayer’s dime. THAT’S my whole point. I wish nothing but the best for Israel and I hope for peace in the middle east. But their actions, as a country, are disrespectful to us. Which is fine - I’m not saying that the world HAS to respect America. But if you take our fucking money, then you should fucking respect our wishes. If you don’t want to play within OUR foreign policy guidelines, then you should be cut off. And that goes for ANY country, not just Israel. We give so much international aid to people that hate us, it’s disgusting - yet we want to cut benefits to OUR veterans! It’s ridiculous.

53

Oh sure the Muslim block that controls the UN has nothing against Israel. That’s why in 2007 they passed 22 resolutions condemning Israel and not a single resolution against Sudan where over half a million people were massacred. Anyone who denies anti-Israeli sentiment at the UN at best is profoundly ignorant of what actually goes on there.

56

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

…Israel…provokes it’s neighbors…

[/quote]

Huh?
[/quote]

Building settlements in territory occupied by the six day war? The UN and all of the international community say that the settlements are illegal and has completely rejected Israel’s premise for the occupation. The US over the years has vacillated on the issue, but MOST administrations have condemned the settlements as “illegitimate” (cuz they don’t want to use the word “illegal” on one of our allies). Yet Israel persists in building them and occupying them. It is one of the major barriers to peace in that region and it furthers the conflict which is against the interest of the United States.

Imagine if ANOTHER country attempted to occupy the territory of it’s neighbor based on the premise that “well, we captured the territory fair and square”? Oh wait… That’s happening right now isn’t it? But where are the sanctions against Israel?

Basically Israel, by it’s actions, is saying, “fuck the rest of the world, we’ll do what we want (but please protect us and give us money, Uncle Sam)”. The position would be fucking hilarious if it weren’t the source of so many people dying.

You don’t consider that provocative?[/quote]

Your narrative is incomplete.

It’s not perfectly analogous but if you built yourself a second home in Flagstaff, AZ under the authority of the US and AZ governments would you, the US and AZ be provoking Mexico?

After all, the land was won by force from Mexico in the Mexican American War. I’m sure that had the UN been around then it would’ve condemned the US.

Also, who ultimately gives a flying fuck what the says UN about this? Very few organizations ever existed that are/were as useless as it.[/quote]

Well the difference there is that Mexico is NOT claiming that the territory is theirs, while the Palestinians ARE. And I agree that the UN is useless. But that’s not the only international body calling what Israel is doing illegitimate. Hell, the UNITED STATES is calling it illegitimate… Name one country or international organization who says, “Israel is entitled to build settlements wherever it likes in the territories seized during the six day war”. Regardless of what is “legitimate” or “illegitimate”, possession is 9/10 of the law, and they are building settlements and displacing the thousands of Palestinians who live there and no one is doing shit about it.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/news/record-number-palestinians-displaced-demolitions-quartet-continues-talk-2011-12-13

That’s a MAJOR barrier to peace in that region. Now it is in the United State’s interest to bring stability and peace to that region, correct? We FUND Israel and have an agreement to protect them if they are attacked, correct? So why is it SOOOO unreasonable for me to have the opinion that perhaps, maybe, JUUUUST MAYBE, they should calm the fuck down with their settlement building and stirring the pot with their neighbors? If we weren’t giving them OUR TAX DOLLARS in aid, I really wouldn’t have an opinion on the matter. But they are costing ME and YOU money, and they are undermining ANY prospect of peace with their reckless, selfish and short sighted policy. Like I said before, if they want to put on their big boy pants, do it on their OWN dime, not ours.

What’s the difference between what Israel is doing with their settlements and what Russia is doing in Crimea? We are sanctioning Russia for LESS that what Israel is doing and yet we’re giving Israel billions in aid. Israel went in with tanks and air strikes when a non state actor fired some rockets across the boarder - Crimea held an ELECTION and WANTS to be a part of Russia, but now we’re freezing assets and cranking up sanctions which is further polarizing us from an old bear who is currently “weaker”, but who is smarter and more strategic than us (and who has over 5000 nuclear missiles aimed at us). Both scenarios are power grabs. Israel is using force, Russia is not. Yet we sanction Russia…

57

Surely claiming territory does not amount to a right to that territory? Look at the facts. Judea/Samaria was part of Israel according to a legally binding UN resolution. It was then illegally annexed by Jordan. Not a single Arab country recognised Jordan’s right to annex and occupy it. The Jordanians then attacked Israel, lost the war then Israel reclaimed the territory that was legally theirs.

Jordan is not demanding the territory back. Arabs living there are demanding the territory as part of a state that doesn’t exist and never has. Furthermore, it is the position of Fatah that the creation of a Palestinian state is merely a transition to the destruction of the state of Israel.

Additionally, it is the official position of the US that Judea/Samaria is part of the state of Israel.

As evidence of the Palestinian’s perfidy and intransigence one only needs to take the example of Gaza. The Israelis forcibly removed every Jew from Gaza in an attempt to appease the Arabs. In response the population democratically elected Hamas. And so the cycle continues - Hamas fires thousands of rockets into Southern Israel. Israel does nothing for months on end. Eventually tiring of daily attacks Israel attacks Hamas targets. Hamas hides in schools, mosques, UN compounds and built up suburban areas. Inevitably civilians are killed. The UN General Assembly, controlled by the Muslim block and third world tinpot regimes condemns Israel for attacking military targets while saying little or nothing about Hamas attacking civilian targets. In response to pressure a cease fire is called. Israel adheres to the ceasefire. Hamas breaks it within hours and continues launching rockets. And on it goes…

58

Israel is at a cross road either they will be a Democracy or a Jewish state . But soon they will choose to be one or the other . Maybe they are already there ???

59

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Israel is at a cross road either they will be a Democracy or a Jewish state . But soon they will choose to be one or the other . Maybe they are already there ???[/quote]

How is Israel not a democracy? Arabs in Israel have the right to vote and have parliamentary representation.