OP asks “Does the Israel Lobby have undue influence upon US Foreign Policy in Southwest Asia” and discussion immediately goes to who has rights to the land of modern Israel. The entire discussion thus far hasn’t address the OP at all.
OP - I haven’t read the links you posted yet in full so I am not responding to those yet. As far as your question, I believe the influence of AIPAC (I’m just going to call the lobby AIPAC for convenience) on US foreign policy is fading and this trend is unlikely to be reversed. I also believe its influence was never as strong as AIPAC or its detractors would want the public to believe. AIPAC and its adversaries both have their reasons for wanting the public to perceive AIPAC as more influential than it actually is. If AIPAC were as powerful as its reputation, we’d be in another clusterfuck in Syria right now.
I do worry about people like Shelden Adelson having undue influence on policy makers . I wouldn’t define people like him as the Israel Lobby, however.
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
Hard to negotiate with a group that has a mushroom cloud on their flag. Other than that, I am woefully ignorant on the subject of the middle east and, thus, have no dog in this fight. But Jewbacca has discussed the ideological idiosyncrasy of Islamic secular government. Given the plausibility of the account he gave, I am more than willing to side with Israel on most middle eastern disputes.
The one incident in recent memory that did wrinkle me was when Israel boarded a Turkish ship in international waters. I don’t like it when the only two “moderate” states in the middle east have a falling out. Makes it harder to form any bloc in opposition to the theocracies inthe region. [/quote]
This I agree with. Jewbacca is unapologetically conservative in most areas (not a problem for me, but perhaps for some others) but he is extremely sharp and well read, and extreeemely knowledgeable about the details of the middle east being that he has a house there and family and connections as well as service history.
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
… Other than that, I am woefully ignorant on the subject of the middle east and, thus, have no dog in this fight. … [/quote]
At least he was honest enough to admit he’s ignorant.
On the other hand we have Mr./Mrs./Ms./Miss Darsemnos waddling into the room and farting out, “Was it actually wise to steal a bunch of land from Arabs and give it to someone else? It would have been simpler if Israel was never created in the first place. By this I mean in the 1940’s. Or maybe we could have created it somewhere else.”[/quote]
No criticism intended; I was recommending a good read to someone who admitted interest. That someone does not know a foreign history is not surprising, either; consider the burden of lies promoted in Europe and elsewhere for the last 40 odd years.
Segev–something of a revisionist–is not authoritative; he has some strange notions regarding British motivation in abandoning the Mandate, so other perspectives must be considered.
Before I begin, I want to say that I am in no way shape or form anti Semitic, or hold anything at all against Jewish people in general. Two of my closest friends are Jewish and I’ve enjoyed festivities with them and their families for years - I respect their tradition. I also think it’s completely fucked that the holocaust happened and that the world stood by and watched as millions of innocent people were systematically rounded up and executed. But having said that, I think that Israel, and it’s “special relationship” with the US has been given far too many liberties and protection given it’s behavior.
Israel exists because the US has it’s back. Period.
Yet it has historically and presently CONSISTENTLY thumbed it’s nose at us, stolen from us (fissile material and nuclear secrets), hasn’t shared information with us and has operated pretty much without regard to OUR interests. Yet we give Israel BILLIONS every year. It doesn’t act very grateful for the help nor does it respect us.
To make an analogy, Israel is like a pretty young girl dating a far older and successful man (America). She still wants to go out and party and dance with other dudes, doesn’t call to let us know she got home, hides her text messages from us and otherwise “acts” single. But at the end of the month she still expects us to pay her rent, “Because you love me and I’m special”. Then she goes and talks shit to her friends about how she has him wrapped around her finger.
It’s a very immature position. And we (America) continue to enable it.
Again, I’m speaking about the COUNTRY Israel and it’s relationship with the US, not it’s people or Jews or anything disrespectful to individuals. For the record, I wish Israel nothing but peace and prosperity. But at the same time, if WE (America), is the the critical check and balance to it’s existence, one might think that they’d show us a little more respect and gratitude or be a little less arrogant (fuck you, we’ll build our settlements anywhere we want).
One would also think they’d give us a bit more help in intelligence matters - especially since half the Arab world wants to blow us up because of our relationship with THEM… Instead, they keep everything close to their vest. Which is fine. It’s a very valid position to have, given their security concerns. But if you want to be “independent” and handle your own business, then HANDLE YOUR OWN BUSINESS. Stop taking our money and pretending that we don’t matter or that our interests don’t need to be considered when making policy decisions. That’s just rude.
If I take a moment and put myself in Israel’s position, I completely understand where they are coming from. They hold a view that the whole world is against them and they will do whatever it takes to survive. I get that, I really do. But that paradigm is a “win:lose” proposition across the board. It’s selfish, immature and short term. And I’m not saying that the US is any better - we wrote the book on selfish, immature and short term thinking - that’s the nature of a democratic republic. But I feel that Israel could be a “better” partner to the United States. And there’s a part of me that resents it’s actions and “infidelities” given the protection and financial support that we provide.
Please note that I am not advocating that we STOP funding or protecting Israel. I think that maintaining and repairing the relationship is important. I am simply saying that Israel needs to recognize and RESPECT us more than they do and have done. We’ve taken some serious punches to the chin as a result of our “special relationship” and we’ve given our treasure freely to support them and ensure their survival. What have they done for us? Exist? Sorry, that’s fine and dandy, but I’d like to see more respect and cooperation with OUR interests and policy. We provide the safe blanket that they sleep under. Acknowledge and appreciate it, don’t disrespect us.
Was it actually wise to steal a bunch of land from Arabs and give it to someone else? It would have been simpler if Israel was never created in the first place. By this I mean in the 1940’s. Or maybe we could have created it somewhere else. [/quote]
And I’m expected to refrain from insulting this utter, rank stupidity?
Good grief.[/quote]
There’s ignorance and there’s stupidity. Is it stupid to not know the difference?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
…
Yet it has historically and presently CONSISTENTLY thumbed it’s nose at us, stolen from us (fissile material and nuclear secrets),
[/quote]
This I did not know. Dimona was built with French technology. How did Israel steal fissile material? I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”
You may not trust the source, but Israel provides antimissile defense technology, intelligence, etc.
Somewhat subjective, there. Every country does and should follow its own interests.
One counter example to consider: during the Gulf War, at GHW Bush’s direct request, Israel refrained from retaliating against Irag, enduring Saddam’s missiles and the threat of poison gas. Israel did so in the interests of the US and the Gulf coalition, so as not to put its Arab members in a “embarrassing” position.
Depending on how it is ledgered, Israel uses 60-80% of that money to buy arms from the U.S.
Israel ranks as the third largest source of biotechnology and military technology made available to the U.S., barely edged out by Canada. (Not bad for a country of 7 million.)
Dreadful mistakes of judgment have been made on both sides. Observing the gratitude of others is one of those subjective things.
[quote]
… Acknowledge and appreciate it, don’t disrespect us.[/quote]
Maybe they don’t maybe they do…many times over. Perhaps the observation depends on one’s sources…or perspective:
Falsely attributed to Anthony Lewis, a Turkish general once observed, “The trouble with having the U.S. as an ally, is one never knows when it will turn around and stab itself in the back.”
Was it actually wise to steal a bunch of land from Arabs and give it to someone else? It would have been simpler if Israel was never created in the first place. By this I mean in the 1940’s. Or maybe we could have created it somewhere else. [/quote]
And I’m expected to refrain from insulting this utter, rank stupidity?
Good grief.[/quote]
There’s ignorance and there’s stupidity. Is it stupid to not know the difference?[/quote]
But it is remarkable when both are on exhibit in the same place.
I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”
[/quote]
Presumably he’s referring to Ben-ami Kadish. I guess the US was ‘refusing to share information.’ I’d like to hear about the ‘stealing fissile material’ though.
This I did not know. Dimona was built with French technology. How did Israel steal fissile material? I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”
This I did not know. Dimona was built with French technology. How did Israel steal fissile material? I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”
“The evidence available for our 2010 Bulletin article persuaded us…”
It didn’t persuade John Emshwiller at the Wall Street Journal though. Nor Brzezinski who had access to FBI/CIA unredacted reports and investigated it in the 70’s. Uranium went missing after Shapiro left NUMAC. I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just saying that the evidence is inconclusive.
“It turns out that according to papers from 1967 made public recently by the U.S. Administration, the U.S. had a senior spy in the Israeli government at that time…”
The minister in question would pass on a steady stream of information to the Americans about inside doings in Jerusalem."
LONDON [MENL] – The United States ordered an espionage drive against Israel to determine whether it would oppose the rapid establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank.
A memorandum signed by then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice ordered U.S. diplomats to step up intelligence efforts against Israel. The drive, ordered in 2008 by the administration of then-President George Bush, also demanded data on encrypted Israeli communications, particularly opposition to a Palestinian state and a freeze on Jewish construction in the West Bank.
“Evidence of government of Israel support for or opposition to actions to limit and/or reduce settlement and outpost growth,” the U.S. embassy cable, released by Wikileaks, said.
The memorandum was relayed to U.S. diplomats throughout the Middle East. The Oct. 31, 2008 cable stressed the administration’s priority to establish a Palestinian state throughout the West Bank and a halt to all Jewish activity in the area.
The American diplomats were also asked to gather evidence on Israeli military operations. The memorandum stressed the need for details on Israeli efforts to kill Palestinian insurgents.
The data on Israel was meant to be gathered from military and government communications. Ms. Rice asked the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv and other facilities to review Internet, cellular phone and govenrment communications, including passport data.
“Appendix A” is a copy of a document released by Wiki leaks in 2010 signed by then Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, in which she gives explicit instructions to the US Embassy in Israel to penetrate and spy on Israel, most notably on all forms of Israeli telecommunications. In this document she gives American spies in Israel their explicit tasking orders.
This I did not know. Dimona was built with French technology. How did Israel steal fissile material? I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”
“The evidence available for our 2010 Bulletin article persuaded us…”
It didn’t persuade John Emshwiller at the Wall Street Journal though. Nor Brzezinski who had access to FBI/CIA unredacted reports and investigated it in the 70’s. Uranium went missing after Shapiro left NUMAC. I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just saying that the evidence is inconclusive.[/quote]
Of course it’s inconclusive. The Mossad is fucking bad ass. But the evidence there, coupled with some private conversations with people that I’ve personally had, is enough to convince me that they did steal from us.
Look, I admire Israel in many ways. I am in no way suggesting that we cut ties or that they are not an “ally” or anything like that. I’m saying that when I try to OBJECTIVELY look at the relationship between Israel and the US, that it’s a one sided relationship. One would also have to be blind not to see that for it’s relative size and population, Israel has WAAAAAAY more influence (in all levels of our society) than any other country. Again, I accept it for what it is, but I think that it is not necessarily in AMERICA’S best interest to keep a country so close when it obviously cares only about it’s own survival, yet at the same time, provokes it’s neighbors.
I would submit for your consideration that without the US backing it up, they wouldn’t be building settlements.
Look at the position that puts us in. Israel swings it’s proverbial dick around the neighborhood and no one can retaliate because of us. So they all hate us. It’s a less than ideal situation and it’s unbalanced.
This I did not know. Dimona was built with French technology. How did Israel steal fissile material? I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”
“The evidence available for our 2010 Bulletin article persuaded us…”
It didn’t persuade John Emshwiller at the Wall Street Journal though. Nor Brzezinski who had access to FBI/CIA unredacted reports and investigated it in the 70’s. Uranium went missing after Shapiro left NUMAC. I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just saying that the evidence is inconclusive.[/quote]
Of course it’s inconclusive. The Mossad is fucking bad ass. But the evidence there, coupled with some private conversations with people that I’ve personally had, is enough to convince me that they did steal from us.
Look, I admire Israel in many ways. I am in no way suggesting that we cut ties or that they are not an “ally” or anything like that. I’m saying that when I try to OBJECTIVELY look at the relationship between Israel and the US, that it’s a one sided relationship. One would also have to be blind not to see that for it’s relative size and population, Israel has WAAAAAAY more influence (in all levels of our society) than any other country. Again, I accept it for what it is, but I think that it is not necessarily in AMERICA’S best interest to keep a country so close when it obviously cares only about it’s own survival, yet at the same time, provokes it’s neighbors.
I would submit for your consideration that without the US backing it up, they wouldn’t be building settlements.
Look at the position that puts us in. Israel swings it’s proverbial dick around the neighborhood and no one can retaliate because of us. So they all hate us. It’s a less than ideal situation and it’s unbalanced.[/quote]
I’d disagree that Israel ‘provokes its neighbours.’ Its neighbours launched three major unprovoked wars against them. They’re surrounded by people who want to wipe them out. And not because they’re ‘stealing land’ - that’s merely a pretext for the pathological anti-Semitism in the Muslim world.
Neither is it reasonable to say Muslims hate the US because they support Israel. They hate the US because its the most powerful nation on earth and leader of the free world. That’s why all the Communist countries in South America hate the US too.
I don’t support everything Israel does unquestioningly. And I think you’re probably right about the Apollo Affair. But I think a close relationship with Israel is in both countries’ interests.
This I did not know. Dimona was built with French technology. How did Israel steal fissile material? I would appreciate a citation for the “stealing nuclear secrets.”
“The evidence available for our 2010 Bulletin article persuaded us…”
It didn’t persuade John Emshwiller at the Wall Street Journal though. Nor Brzezinski who had access to FBI/CIA unredacted reports and investigated it in the 70’s. Uranium went missing after Shapiro left NUMAC. I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just saying that the evidence is inconclusive.[/quote]
Of course it’s inconclusive. The Mossad is fucking bad ass. But the evidence there, coupled with some private conversations with people that I’ve personally had, is enough to convince me that they did steal from us.
Look, I admire Israel in many ways. I am in no way suggesting that we cut ties or that they are not an “ally” or anything like that. I’m saying that when I try to OBJECTIVELY look at the relationship between Israel and the US, that it’s a one sided relationship. One would also have to be blind not to see that for it’s relative size and population, Israel has WAAAAAAY more influence (in all levels of our society) than any other country. Again, I accept it for what it is, but I think that it is not necessarily in AMERICA’S best interest to keep a country so close when it obviously cares only about it’s own survival, yet at the same time, provokes it’s neighbors.
I would submit for your consideration that without the US backing it up, they wouldn’t be building settlements.
Look at the position that puts us in. Israel swings it’s proverbial dick around the neighborhood and no one can retaliate because of us. So they all hate us. It’s a less than ideal situation and it’s unbalanced.[/quote]
I’d disagree that Israel ‘provokes its neighbours.’ Its neighbours launched three major unprovoked wars against them. They’re surrounded by people who want to wipe them out. And not because they’re ‘stealing land’ - that’s merely a pretext for the pathological anti-Semitism in the Muslim world.
Neither is it reasonable to say Muslims hate the US because they support Israel. They hate the US because its the most powerful nation on earth and leader of the free world. That’s why all the Communist countries in South America hate the US too.
I don’t support everything Israel does unquestioningly. And I think you’re probably right about the Apollo Affair. But I think a close relationship with Israel is in both countries’ interests. [/quote]
I agree that it’s in both of our interests to be allies - I’ve been pretty clear about that. My point is that given the blanket of protection and financial support that we provide them, I feel they don’t respect OUR interests with many of their policies and actions. Make no mistake, that area is a powder keg waiting to go off. Their war WILL become OUR war and American troops will die as a result.
For example, operation Pillar of Cloud where Israel extensively bombed civilian targets would have warranted sanctions if ANY other country did it.
I get that Israel faces it’s own internal power struggles. And there are extremists on both sides that live to wipe the other one off the map. But when those extremists are allowed to control policy, it puts the balance in a very tenuous position and the US, as their ally, underwrites that risk.
It’s a fucked up position we’re in and I’m sick and tired of Americans dying in the desert over shit that has nothing to do with us.