Does the Israel Lobby have undue influence upon US Foreign Policy in Southwest Asia? Discuss.
http://www.alternet.org/story/35925/a_response_to_critics_of_'the_israel_lobby'
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Does the Israel Lobby have undue influence upon US Foreign Policy in Southwest Asia? Discuss.
http://www.alternet.org/story/35925/a_response_to_critics_of_'the_israel_lobby'
[/quote]
They have undue influence upon US foreign policy. Period.
The US has undue influence on Israeli domestic policy; telling them they can’t build in their own capital city for example; telling them they have to negotiate with Fatah/Hamas; referring to the entire country as ‘disputed territory’; refusing to acknowledge their capital city etc.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The US has undue influence on Israeli domestic policy; telling them they can’t build in their own capital city for example; telling them they have to negotiate with Fatah/Hamas; referring to the entire country as ‘disputed territory’; refusing to acknowledge their capital city etc.[/quote]
These two separate undue influences are not mutually exclusive.
But do we really have power to prevent them from building? Do we have the power to determine who they negotiate with?
Was it actually wise to steal a bunch of land from Arabs and give it to someone else? It would have been simpler if Israel was never created in the first place. By this I mean in the 1940’s. Or maybe we could have created it somewhere else.
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
These two separate undue influences are not mutually exclusive.
[/quote]
Agreed. However I don’t believe that Israel has ‘undue influence’ on US foreign policy.
Like many other countries Israel relies on US armaments. However unlike South Korea, Japan and the EU, the US provides no troops nor a nuclear umbrella.
[quote]
Was it actually wise to steal a bunch of land from Arabs and give it to someone else? It would have been simpler if Israel was never created in the first place. By this I mean in the 1940’s. Or maybe we could have created it somewhere else. [/quote]
Lol. I’m not even going to bother with that. Clearly you know nothing about history and have merely swallowed Arab nationalist propaganda hook, line and sinker.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
These two separate undue influences are not mutually exclusive.
[/quote]
Agreed. However I don’t believe that Israel has ‘undue influence’ on US foreign policy.
Like many other countries Israel relies on US armaments. However unlike South Korea, Japan and the EU, the US provides no troops nor a nuclear umbrella.
Ha, not a chance. About the only thing I know about the origin of the modern incarnation of geographic Israel is that it happened in the 1940’s after WWII so they’d have a place where they’d be free from people trying to wipe them out.
I don’t “know” enough to have swallowed anything.
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
Ha, not a chance. About the only thing I know about the origin of the modern incarnation of geographic Israel is that it happened in the 1940’s after WWII so they’d have a place where they’d be free from people trying to wipe them out.
I don’t “know” enough to have swallowed anything. [/quote]
But you claimed we stole Arab land and gave it to the Jews. In actuality we reneged on the Balfour declaration and gave the Arabs Trans-Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq and Syria. The Arabs were also offered an independent Palestinian state but refused and choose to attack Israel.
Note: the Jews stole Canaan from the Amorites, Jebusites, Hivites, Perizzites, Hittites and Canaanites and made a treaty with the Gibeonites. As these people mostly ended up on pikes and no longer exist, for all intents and purposes the Jews are indigenous to Canaan.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
Ha, not a chance. About the only thing I know about the origin of the modern incarnation of geographic Israel is that it happened in the 1940’s after WWII so they’d have a place where they’d be free from people trying to wipe them out.
I don’t “know” enough to have swallowed anything. [/quote]
But you claimed we stole Arab land and gave it to the Jews. In actuality we reneged on the Balfour declaration and gave the Arabs Trans-Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq and Syria. The Arabs were also offered an independent Palestinian state but refused and choose to attack Israel.
[/quote]
Who was living in the footprint of modern Israel when Israel was created?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Note: the Jews stole Canaan from the Amorites, Jebusites, Hivites, Perizzites, Hittites and Canaanites and made a treaty with the Gibeonites. As these people mostly ended up on pikes and no longer exist, for all intents and purposes the Jews are indigenous to Canaan.[/quote]
If you believe all of those accounts.
Who is indigenous to where is mostly useless. As they say, possession is nine tenths of the law. It’s too late to give america back to the Indians we committed genocide against, so no sense in worrying about that it was “their” land.
I don’t see why everyone cares so much who lives where. Just let people travel freely to their religious sites and it shouldn’t matter who’s in charge.
The Abrahamic religions aren’t doing anyone any good these days.
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
Ha, not a chance. About the only thing I know about the origin of the modern incarnation of geographic Israel is that it happened in the 1940’s after WWII so they’d have a place where they’d be free from people trying to wipe them out.
I don’t “know” enough to have swallowed anything. [/quote]
But you claimed we stole Arab land and gave it to the Jews. In actuality we reneged on the Balfour declaration and gave the Arabs Trans-Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq and Syria. The Arabs were also offered an independent Palestinian state but refused and choose to attack Israel.
[/quote]
Who was living in the footprint of modern Israel when Israel was created?[/quote]
A few wandering Bedouin, some Arabs and some Jews. The Arabs were given half a dozen countries and offered an independent state. Why is Israel ‘Arab land’ when Jews were living there too? Why are Arabs allowed to emigrate there but Jews aren’t? What about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who lived in Arab countries and were expelled? Are the Arabs in Iraq occupying Jewish land?
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
If you believe all of those accounts.
Who is indigenous to where is mostly useless. As they say, possession is nine tenths of the law. It’s too late to give america back to the Indians we committed genocide against, so no sense in worrying about that it was “their” land.
I don’t see why everyone cares so much who lives where. Just let people travel freely to their religious sites and it shouldn’t matter who’s in charge.
[/quote]
Why sure! Let Hamas take over and the Jews can all get their throats cut. Who cares right?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
Ha, not a chance. About the only thing I know about the origin of the modern incarnation of geographic Israel is that it happened in the 1940’s after WWII so they’d have a place where they’d be free from people trying to wipe them out.
I don’t “know” enough to have swallowed anything. [/quote]
But you claimed we stole Arab land and gave it to the Jews. In actuality we reneged on the Balfour declaration and gave the Arabs Trans-Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq and Syria. The Arabs were also offered an independent Palestinian state but refused and choose to attack Israel.
[/quote]
Who was living in the footprint of modern Israel when Israel was created?[/quote]
A few wandering Bedouin, some Arabs and some Jews. The Arabs were given half a dozen countries and offered an independent state. Why is Israel ‘Arab land’ when Jews were living there too? Why are Arabs allowed to emigrate there but Jews aren’t? What about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who lived in Arab countries and were expelled? Are the Arabs in Iraq occupying Jewish land?[/quote]
This is all I have to say about this:
Let’s just enact a worldwide ban on Abrahamic faiths.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
If you believe all of those accounts.
Who is indigenous to where is mostly useless. As they say, possession is nine tenths of the law. It’s too late to give america back to the Indians we committed genocide against, so no sense in worrying about that it was “their” land.
I don’t see why everyone cares so much who lives where. Just let people travel freely to their religious sites and it shouldn’t matter who’s in charge.
[/quote]
Why sure! Let Hamas take over and the Jews can all get their throats cut. Who cares right?
[/quote]
At least that would end the conflict. And then the Muslims would kill each other over their sects. Once they’re all dead the rest of the world can get on with this thing we call civilization.
I think you must be irrationally ideological, because my comment was clearly not directed at Israel specifically, but at the stupid notion of “we can’t let the infidels live in our holy land.” Whether it’s the Muslims or Jews, or CHristians who are the infidels doesn’t matter to me. I don’t see why people can’t live and let live.
The Abrahamic faiths make people much crazier, and we don’t need any help.
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
If you believe all of those accounts.
Who is indigenous to where is mostly useless. As they say, possession is nine tenths of the law. It’s too late to give america back to the Indians we committed genocide against, so no sense in worrying about that it was “their” land.
I don’t see why everyone cares so much who lives where. Just let people travel freely to their religious sites and it shouldn’t matter who’s in charge.
[/quote]
Why sure! Let Hamas take over and the Jews can all get their throats cut. Who cares right?
[/quote]
At least that would end the conflict. And then the Muslims would kill each other over their sects. Once they’re all dead the rest of the world can get on with this thing we call civilization.
I think you must be irrationally ideological, because my comment was clearly not directed at Israel specifically, but at the stupid notion of “we can’t let the infidels live in our holy land.” Whether it’s the Muslims or Jews, or CHristians who are the infidels doesn’t matter to me. I don’t see why people can’t live and let live.
The Abrahamic faiths make people much crazier, and we don’t need any help.
[/quote]
Only the Jews don’t say that ‘we can’t let infidels live in our holy land.’ Arabs in Israel have all the same rights that Jews have.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
If you believe all of those accounts.
Who is indigenous to where is mostly useless. As they say, possession is nine tenths of the law. It’s too late to give america back to the Indians we committed genocide against, so no sense in worrying about that it was “their” land.
I don’t see why everyone cares so much who lives where. Just let people travel freely to their religious sites and it shouldn’t matter who’s in charge.
[/quote]
Why sure! Let Hamas take over and the Jews can all get their throats cut. Who cares right?
[/quote]
At least that would end the conflict. And then the Muslims would kill each other over their sects. Once they’re all dead the rest of the world can get on with this thing we call civilization.
I think you must be irrationally ideological, because my comment was clearly not directed at Israel specifically, but at the stupid notion of “we can’t let the infidels live in our holy land.” Whether it’s the Muslims or Jews, or CHristians who are the infidels doesn’t matter to me. I don’t see why people can’t live and let live.
The Abrahamic faiths make people much crazier, and we don’t need any help.
[/quote]
Only the Jews don’t say that ‘we can’t let infidels live in our holy land.’ Arabs in Israel have all the same rights that Jews have. [/quote]
Then we should nuke the rest of the Middle East.
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
If you believe all of those accounts.
Who is indigenous to where is mostly useless. As they say, possession is nine tenths of the law. It’s too late to give america back to the Indians we committed genocide against, so no sense in worrying about that it was “their” land.
I don’t see why everyone cares so much who lives where. Just let people travel freely to their religious sites and it shouldn’t matter who’s in charge.
[/quote]
Why sure! Let Hamas take over and the Jews can all get their throats cut. Who cares right?
[/quote]
At least that would end the conflict. And then the Muslims would kill each other over their sects. Once they’re all dead the rest of the world can get on with this thing we call civilization.
I think you must be irrationally ideological, because my comment was clearly not directed at Israel specifically, but at the stupid notion of “we can’t let the infidels live in our holy land.” Whether it’s the Muslims or Jews, or CHristians who are the infidels doesn’t matter to me. I don’t see why people can’t live and let live.
The Abrahamic faiths make people much crazier, and we don’t need any help.
[/quote]
Only the Jews don’t say that ‘we can’t let infidels live in our holy land.’ Arabs in Israel have all the same rights that Jews have. [/quote]
Then we should nuke the rest of the Middle East.
[/quote]
And you claim religious folk are ‘irrationally ideological?’ I’m going to assume you’re joking.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]darsemnos wrote:
If you believe all of those accounts.
Who is indigenous to where is mostly useless. As they say, possession is nine tenths of the law. It’s too late to give america back to the Indians we committed genocide against, so no sense in worrying about that it was “their” land.
I don’t see why everyone cares so much who lives where. Just let people travel freely to their religious sites and it shouldn’t matter who’s in charge.
[/quote]
Why sure! Let Hamas take over and the Jews can all get their throats cut. Who cares right?
[/quote]
At least that would end the conflict. And then the Muslims would kill each other over their sects. Once they’re all dead the rest of the world can get on with this thing we call civilization.
I think you must be irrationally ideological, because my comment was clearly not directed at Israel specifically, but at the stupid notion of “we can’t let the infidels live in our holy land.” Whether it’s the Muslims or Jews, or CHristians who are the infidels doesn’t matter to me. I don’t see why people can’t live and let live.
The Abrahamic faiths make people much crazier, and we don’t need any help.
[/quote]
Only the Jews don’t say that ‘we can’t let infidels live in our holy land.’ Arabs in Israel have all the same rights that Jews have. [/quote]
Then we should nuke the rest of the Middle East.
[/quote]
And you claim religious folk are ‘irrationally ideological?’ I’m going to assume you’re joking.
[/quote]
That would be wise.
Hard to negotiate with a group that has a mushroom cloud on their flag. Other than that, I am woefully ignorant on the subject of the middle east and, thus, have no dog in this fight. But Jewbacca has discussed the ideological idiosyncrasy of Islamic secular government. Given the plausibility of the account he gave, I am more than willing to side with Israel on most middle eastern disputes.
The one incident in recent memory that did wrinkle me was when Israel boarded a Turkish ship in international waters. I don’t like it when the only two “moderate” states in the middle east have a falling out. Makes it harder to form any bloc in opposition to the theocracies inthe region.