The French

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

Vroom - "How many times do I have to repeat that I’ve lived and worked in the US for many years and damned near married a Texan woman. I don’t have anything against the US, though from time to time I don’t agree with some attitudes or policies.

Learn the difference, please!"

Sorry bud Don’t think so, You haven’t had one positive us post since I have began hearing from you. If you did it was 1% of your total postings. I don’t care if you lived here, the sad fact is that like some other canadians, you have a chip on your shoulder towards the us. You resent us for being a superpower and acting like it. we should be more sensitive to countries of lesser stature because it is the noble thing to do. Acountry like france or canada should have just as much say in what we do because they are just as smart as us, just because they are smaller and weaker doesn’t mean they aren’t smarter. Actually I believe you think that America would be better off listening to Canada and France, Hell screw our democracy that made us the greatest country in the world, just let some liberal socialists run the whole damn thing. It would at least cut out all this nonsense about voting fraud and political nonsense.

Here is how your average post reads vroom, Sigh, (shake head), frown, and any other measure of elitist gestures. Followed by, oh little americans, so much have you to learn, this is how you are so wrong and ignorant and yadda yadda. followed by I really love all you guys so don’t think i’m being negative, I just know better than you do so please take this in a fatherly type of way.

Excuse me while I go puke

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

42

[quote]vroom wrote:

Anyway, I’m off to have some freedom fries and to kick any French people I run into today…[/quote]

That’s the spirit vroom!

43

I don’t really think that vroom’s posts in this thread shows he hates the US. We didn’t help the French in WWII because they were our bestest buddies let’s face it. We finally realized what could happen if Europe was axis controlled and we stepped in. They provoked us and faced a mighty wrath. He’s just arguing that the French shouldn’t be our puppets because they were our front for WWII. You may not agree but I don’t believe this is hatred for the US. And in case you didn’t know there were at least 3 landing sites in the D-Day invasion from other countries.

44

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

When all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, you treat every problem like a nail.

french_muscl wrote:
but for mosquitos, it’s useless![/quote]

That’s the precise point of the quote, actually. But given English is your second (or third, or fourth…) language, I’m sure it was lost in translation.

45

Vroom,

What does the rest of Canada think of the French Canadians? To overly generalize, the Canadians I have met are a very warm and down to earth people. Are the French Canadians the same? I used to live in Detroit and remember listeding to the head of the seperatist party (don’t remember his name) on the radio.

46

Veg,

I’m afraid you are just plain mistaken. If I hated the US I would not be considering going back. Enlighten me concerning anything I’ve said that shows hatred towards the US. Please.

I’m sorry you can’t tell the difference. Anyway, grow a sac and learn to take discussion and criticism like a man already.

I am however pissed because it’s inappropriate to ingore the death and suffering of others who paid the ultimate sacrifice during WWII. Do the words Dieppe or Juno mean anything to you? Probably not.

Canada was in the war for a long time before D-Day came around. Here are some facts about the effort:

Canada declared war against Germany on September 10th, 1939.

1.1 million Canadians served in WWII, including 106,000 in the Royal Canadian Navy and 200,000 in the Royal Canadian Air Force. That is almost 10% of the entire population at that time.

There were five designated beaches on D-Day. Canada took one. The British tok two. The US took two. It was quite the joint effort. Nobody got a cakewalk that day I’m afraid.

The name of Canada’s beach was Juno. Dieppe, which was a massacre, was a dry run several years in advance of D-Day. Canadians were the major contributors of the Dieppe exercise. People don’t always agree about whether it was a senseless massacre or whether it was helpful for planning D-Day activities successfully.

I know that the US was a major force in the war. I’m not claiming otherwise. I’m not saying that it wasn’t and isn’t appreciated by all involved. However, isn’t it about time to recognize that there are other people and other countries that have import in the world as well. The rest of the world isn’t as insignificant as some of you may like to pretend it is.

However, I will ask again, how long does a country continue to have a debt towards another country? Should France forever be indebted to the Allies, and what should this mean about its politics and policies?

And hey, does this mean Canada and Britain also still deserve servitude from France as well? Or, instead, does the entire planet owe servitude towards the US?

Maybe it is none of the above.

However, don’t be surprised when you continually ignore the contributions and needs of others if they decide to no longer contribute.

If you think this is hatred, then too bad. It’s not, it’s tough love… :wink:

47

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Here is how your average post reads vroom, Sigh, (shake head), frown, and any other measure of elitist gestures. Followed by, oh little americans, so much have you to learn, this is how you are so wrong and ignorant and yadda yadda. followed by I really love all you guys so don’t think i’m being negative, I just know better than you do so please take this in a fatherly type of way.

Excuse me while I go puke

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins[/quote]

I completely agree. That’s how all of his posts read to me as well.

48

Gees guys, tell me: is this a post on the French’s reaction to Bush’s reelection, or a we are americans and screw all of those who aren’t? Some of you sure make it sound like that! Being of French descent myself, I admit they do have attitudes when pissed-off, but military heroics of the past set aside, so do americans. Frankly, I don’t give a S**T as to who saved who’s butt in which war my grandfather isn’t old enough to have fought in.

And face it, you’re taking any negative comment as hatred for the US. Oups, said it. Hope I’m not getting assaulted in a dark street for this one… Anyway, at any rate, criticism isn’t hate, as Vroom pointed out. (Altough I’m not too sure as to his other posts) There’s always gonna be disagreement when it comes to politics, specially if money and “superior interest of the nation” is involved, and the middle-east seems to be the focal point of all of that lately. For or against Iraq? I don’t know. Only thing I know or sure, is that Bush didn’t go there to remove a threat to the free world, as he is the greatest one right now, and the Mass Destruction Weapons WERE indeed there, andhe had good reason to know it: they were sold to Saddam by Bush father when the former was U.S rempart against the previous “threat to the free world” namely Iran.

Funny though, how such great and poetic words like “threat to the free world”, Mass Destruction Weapons and axis of evil are tossed around the stakes are high. Makes me feel like I’m watching an old episode of GIJoe, instead of CNN.

49

vroom:

I don’t think you display more hate than the typical ultra liberal on this forum. It’s just that the entire act is getting old. Maybe all of that “tough love” (read the tough part never saw the love connection) is easier to take from an American citizen…not sure.

However, you sure do have a right to critique the good old USA. It would even be nice if you had a few good words for us now and then. It would also be sort of fun to read some of your criticizims regarding your native homeland of Canada. (I’ve visited Canada nice place, never saw a need to insult any of its citizens). I know Canada is not what you might call a hot topic on this forum, but heck why not be fair on occasion and take them to task for being Socialists (I think you may have done that only once or twice to my recollection. I wouldn’t call that “fair and balanced”).

I think you might be reminding some of us of a guest who shows up, eats the food, uses the facilities, generally enjoys himself and then insults everyone during the evening (Just my read on it pal).

Hey…don’t get me wrong I’m sure you are a good guy. I would just like to see more of it on this forum.

“Tough love”…Haha.

50

To all who are quoting history I would like to set the record straight.

  1. The British never attacked us during
    the revolution they attempted to
    suppress a rebellion.

  2. France did not save our ass. They
    blockaded the British at Yorktown
    when they were sure the war would
    be won. It was a show of force that
    did not involve a shot fired.
    Britian vowed after to become the
    dominant naval power…and did.

  3. France never surrendered in WWI but
    by the entrance of the USA in 1918
    they had lost a war of attrition and
    had no offensive capability left. The
    summer German offesnisve of 1918
    would have defeated France if the US
    was not present. They were ready to
    sign a treaty.

  4. No educated person believes that Britian and France would have driven the Germans back to Germany without the US “Arsenal of Democracy”. Even a self centered European should see that.

  5. How long should we hold WWII over Europe’s head. Forever of course. Look at the crosses in Normandy.

Europe is sinking into Second World status by their own choosing. Socialism and poor political leadership as well as the reliance of the US to do the tough work for them has brought them to the present position. The utter fear of Islamic terrorism and giving up their entitlements will keep them there. They will soon be eclipsed by China in economic importance.

The French are immaterial going forward to US policy and should be treated with as much relevance as any minor nation that is incapable of projecting it’s power or support beyond it’s borders for a sustained period.

51

Meanwhile, back in Africa…

Wall Street Journal Editorial
The Bloody Coast
November 9, 2004; Page A18

Nation-building is not for the faint of heart, as the French are now discovering after days of violence in the Ivory Coast. We’ll resist the Iraq comparisons for, say, a paragraph or two.

Simmering tensions broke into the open Saturday when nine French peacekeeping soldiers were killed in an Ivorian government air raid. The French were enforcing a nearly two-year-old ceasefire between northern Muslim rebels and the Christian-dominated government in Abidjan, on the southern coast.

President Laurent Gbagbo’s spokesman called the bombing a “mistake,” but it looked, and worked, like a tailor-made provocation. Paris had no choice but to retaliate so it attacked and destroyed the state’s tiny air force. French troops “occupied,” if we may use that word, the two biggest airports. As if on cue, Mr. Gbagbo’s lieutenants incited anti-French sentiment to bring violent mobs into the streets. French schools and businesses were looted. Hundreds are dead. “Everybody get your Frenchman” was a popular chant.

Envoys are on their way, along with French reinforcements, but the peace deal looks to be dead. When France sent in its paratroopers to stop a nascent civil war in 2002, its intervention went little noticed in the din of the Iraq debate. The French acted unilaterally at first, without a U.N. green light. Ivory Coast isn’t rich in oil but it is the world’s leading cocoa producer. Were the French motives pure? No, but economic and national interests (including the safety of thousands of French citizens) were at stake in its former colony. France could reasonably say that the intervention saved lives.

The peace deal forced on the warring parties in early 2003 was the seed of today’s problems. The Muslim rebels stopped their southward march in exchange for promises that were never fulfilled. The Gbagbo government didn’t let them share power. A hated citizenship law that rendered millions of northerners stateless – a spark for the rebellion – stayed in place. The rebels, in turn, didn’t disarm. Mr. Gbagbo moved in recent months to restart the war, rousing anti-French feelings among his supporters.

In short, it’s a mess – or as French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier likes to say of Iraq, “a fiasco.” The French at least now have a U.N. force of 6,220 on board. Paris this week called for an arms embargo and other sanctions against the Ivorian government.

This is all a notable contrast to the French position on Iraq. Only last week, President Jacques Chirac snubbed Iraq’s interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, at the European Union summit.

In the Ivory Coast, though, France has no trouble asserting what it deems to be its unilateral interests, and Mr. Chirac didn’t ask the U.N. Security Council for permission to take the airports this weekend. He more or less asserts that he is seeking to do the right thing, namely rebuild a stable and peaceful country. The U.S. is firmly backing France in the Ivory Coast. Too bad France doesn’t return the favor.

52

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sure, but I can’t leave Zeb out there trying to make it appear as if I don’t like the US.

How many times do I have to repeat that I’ve lived and worked in the US for many years and damned near married a Texan woman. I don’t have anything against the US, though from time to time I don’t agree with some attitudes or policies.

Learn the difference, please![/quote]

Don’t judge all French by Chirac, Don’t judge all Americans by Zeb.

53

Hedo, I like your thinking, to a certain extent. I believe that the main point of the arguement is that it was a group effort, rather than any single country “saving the world”. Big distinction. I also do not believe that our motives for entering the war(s) were completely unselfish. We saw a threat to ourselves and only then took action. In fact even after the liberation of Europe, Truman had to write a letter to the American public explaining why we got involved (citing the Holocaust).

One also must wonder how many lives could have been saved had we entered the war along with the rest of our subsequent allies (in both world wars). We need to be proud of our military accomplishments, but at the same time we need to recognize when we screwed up and the reasons for each.

[quote]hedo wrote:4. No educated person believes that Britian and France would have driven the Germans back to Germany without the US “Arsenal of Democracy”. Even a self centered European should see that.

  1. How long should we hold WWII over Europe’s head. Forever of course. Look at the crosses in Normandy.[/quote]
54

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
vroom wrote:
Sure, but I can’t leave Zeb out there trying to make it appear as if I don’t like the US.

How many times do I have to repeat that I’ve lived and worked in the US for many years and damned near married a Texan woman. I don’t have anything against the US, though from time to time I don’t agree with some attitudes or policies.

Learn the difference, please!

Don’t judge all French by Chirac, Don’t judge all Americans by Zeb.

[/quote]

Good point. I think you should continue to insult the US in front of more Americans then make a judgement :slight_smile:

55

To disagree with you is not to insult America. It is not even to insult you. You love to taught “freedom of speech” yet you see anyone with a different viewpoint as un-American or hateful. The Americans have always fought for and demanded Freedom of Speech here and all over the world. By our very charter, the French, the Russians and the rest of the world have every right to disagree with the President, true what is does is “best” for the USA, but not necessarily everyone else. To attempt to silence these people is to become the very enemy that we stand against. Thomas Jefferson beleived that the goverment should be torn down and rebuilt evry five years. There is little in the current state of our country he would agree with and you could hardly call him un-American.

Difference of opinion is what makes a horse race…

56

Zebster, I don’t make the topics, I just participate in them. If people around here really wanted to discuss Canada’s faults and ailings, then so be it.

However, I’m usually just used to hearing things like “die socialist” and “if it weren’t for us you slackers would speak language X”. These are just attitudes, not criticisms.

Back to the point, I don’t take offense to the following portion of Hedo’s comment…

The world is being reshaped, several large and previously ignored regions are coming into their own. If the French are truly not significant anymore, then so be it. Cest la vie! It doesn’t mean we have to hate them or lord previous conflicts over them.

I do disagree though, on the concept of holding WWII over their heads forever. We remember it forever. We honor the soldiers forever. However, it wasn’t done to incur a debt that can never be repaid. When that line is crossed I believe it is wrong.

You can’t go around doing what you want to do, for your own reasons, then tell everyone “you owe us” at a later date. It isn’t reasonable.

It isn’t US bashing to think so or to say so.

I know, I know, I should be grateful because I’d be speaking German if it wasn’t for you. You know what, if you personally fought in WWII and put your life on the line for me, then thank you very very much. I appreciate all soldiers of all nationalities who participated on the side of the Allies.

If you didn’t personally do anything to protect me from evil in WWII, then WTF are you talking about. You think your grandfathers honor is automatically bestowed to you? The world doesn’t owe you anything unless you’ve earned it and the people who incurred the debt are still alive.

And now back to the hijack topic…

By the way Zeb, I’m often in strong disagreement with you, the current administration or other conservatives on these boards. Perhaps that is why you think I am attacking you or the states or something like that.

And, I’m not sure how to say this without it being interpreted wrong. What I’m hearing in here is a bunch of whining because I don’t say enough nice things about US policies. I guess I should sugar coat my opinions due to my nationality or something.

Might I suggest growing a pair?

57

Interesting responses in the past few days.

I’m glad the French and their descendants have joined the discussion.

We are angry with you for your blatant hypocrisy. You accept bribes from Saddam and then try to act like you are the “world conscience.” You’ll “stop those oil/land hungry Americans!!!”

Ridiculous.

Many of us know exactly what sort of leadership you have now. Chirac is a political opportunist who is trying to position himself as leader of the EU.

I have faith that the EU will continue to summarily reject his candidates (as they already have).

I would go as far as to say that the U.N. will never be taken seriously by many of us until the two-faced French are removed from the security counsel.

In short, the French are a second rate power trying to play nice with the Coalition of the willing and some pretty nasty guys (Arafat/PLO, etc…).
The U.S. isn’t big on countries playing footsies with terrorist organizations.

The most devastating indictment against the current French leadership was when an 80+ year old American who served in Normandy sent back his Legion of Honor to France with a note that said, “Due to your recent actions, I can no longer honor this medal.”

Devastating.

One more point, those of you who are big into the “Bush started this war for personal financial gain” need to change your sources of information.

We are going to do our best to stabilize Iraq, and then leave.

JeffR

58

Vroom, Without re-reading my origional rant, I don’t think I ever said you hate america. I simply stated that you act all high and mighty and have nothing but negative statements followed by your little disclaimer of having lived here.

Why do you feel the need to Tell us how to treat the rest of the world. I can treat people any way I want. And to boot, I have very strong french blood in my family, My grandfather who fought in WWII had the family name of Lemieux. Thats about as french as it gets my friend. If he were alive today he would mosy definately be calling the french sniveling pussies. Granted these are generalizations and do not apply to all french. However it is the general image portrayed and also the rest of the world steryotypes us as cowboys and hicks and yankees and what not.

I guess with a cooler head my point is this, Why do you feel the need to argue against the american way of doing things even if it the most nuanced little point out of a sea of things. Like if we have something we do that is 99% successful you will harp on the 1% that went wrong. I just don’t get it and think that you fall into the category of not hating americans but definately thinking you are better, or wiser or something.

So again, if you start posts off by sighing, or other such childish gestures, then follow your post with a disclaimer as to why the post shouldn’t be taken in a negative view but instead as constructive criticism. Guess what, you come off as a stuck up foreing jerk. You are that guy that rolls his eyes and then criticises someone as if they are 3 and it annoys me. So with my freedom of speech I will let you know this and that will be the last time I bring it up. If you want to drop it then whatever, just thought i’d let you know how I feel. You know, don’t take it as anything against you buddy, just think of it as a little constructive criticism. :wink:

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

59

vroom:

You don’t make the topics? That’s odd I could have sworn that you have “made” many topics. Not one of those topics that you made has ever been pro US. If I have erred in this statement please correct me.

You do seem to be the first to criticize America. You like that role. As an outsider it seems to fit you, and you want to continue in it. That is certainly your choice as the US offers you a free society. However, it is also my choice to call you on it whenever I see fit, which is a good part of the time :wink:

As far as “growing a pair” I hardly think that has anything to do with me, or the many others not appreciating your ultra liberal anti-American sentiment. “Growing a pair” would refer more to having courage. If you really don’t think that I am courageous I guess that’s okay too. Afterall, I am apparently in good company considering the other people and American institutions that you bashed on a regular basis.

Until next time…

60

Zeb,

I really don’t start very many political threads.

I do start threads outside the politics forum and of course they are of a very different nature. For starters, they are not political and I don’t carry any arguments, viewpoints or disagreements from here over to there.

Whomever,

I think maybe some of you are having trouble criticizing my opinion so you are now reduced to criticizing me.

Are you suggesting I’m not nice enough and that I don’t say many nice things, and maybe I should just say the things you want to hear? Maybe somebody needs to be screaming out that the emperor has no clothes.

I don’t care if you like what I see and comment on. I don’t care if you agree with my opinion. I don’t care if you dislike me and want me to go away. I’m hearing “boo hoo, wauuugh, sniff” and I don’t care.

Lacking a reprimand from the good folks here at T-Nation, whom I would most certainly listen to, there is no way I’m going to just sit around and agree with everything just to make a few people around here happy.

I too have people ripping into my opinions on a constant basis and critizing me, taking glee if they can show me wrong, every time I open my mouth. Supposedly I’ve been “owned” various times, “incredibly out of my league” and so on. It seems to be the way the political forums work. Go ahead, crush me. Knock yourself out.

Some advice, try this thought… “my opinion is not me”.

I’m here for the information. I feel a large debt of gratitude to T-Nation for providing information and products that have changed my life for the better. I’m here to offer positive contributions in the non-political forums when I think I might have something useful to add. As I become more knowledgeable that will hopefully happen more often.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but the politics forums are a place of entertainment where I can sharpen my writing and debating skills. I may just decide to put them to productive use at some point.

I don’t hate the US, I don’t hate you and I don’t hate any of my fellow forumites. I don’t have to say only nice things or pretend to like your viewpoint and I don’t receive or expect to receive that in return either.

Are we done whining yet? Maybe y’all need a group hug or something to get over it? Heck, maybe you just need to learn to deal with criticism? Whatever the case, I don’t care.