The Fence - Most Powerful Self Defence Technique

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Okay. This video covers an important basic concept of self defense that can do more to save your ass than just knowing how to fight yet it gets overlooked. The reason why is probably because it isn’t something that strokes our ego like being able to simply dominate and beat someone up. As he says in the video you have to keep your ego in check for this to work.

The concept here is that you can be in a self defense situation long before the first kick or punch in a fight is thrown. This one of the areas where self defense and combat sport radically diverge. In a boxing match or an MMA match you are going to have signal from a referee when it is time to fight that you don’t get in self defense.

How you handle the prefight jockeying for position can really do a lot to determine the outcome. You don’t necessarily need to be bigger, stronger, faster or even a better fighter than the other guy if he makes mistakes in his positioning.

That video of the guy getting knocked out is a good example of what not to do. Because he was taller than everyone else he felt dominant which kicked in his ego. So he stepped right up to his opponent to tower over him and try to dominate him. The problem with that, is being so close he had to devote all his concentration on the man right in front of him because he would have very little reaction time if he did something. This put him in a state of tunnel vision.

If he had kept a few steps back he would have been able to look around him and see who was trying to outflank him and move into his blind spot. Also he would have been more likely to sense someone moving from his side to his rear in his peripheral vision without having to look around. When he stepped up on the man in front he moved the guy who knocked him out into his blind spot without the guy having to do anything.

He also made it more confrontational so the other guy felt justified in sucker punching him. As tall as he was he probably had a reach advantage on all of them but he gave it away by getting too close. With that reach he could have used the same check that Thompson used in the video where he pushed on his opponents closest shoulder and angled off.

I could go on but I’ll leave you with this. There are principles of fighting that you can use in the prefight confrontation. ie Range is important, keeping the other person away gives more reaction time and also allows greater awareness of what is going on around you making it easier to deal with multiple opponents.

Body positioning can be decisive. If you hold your hands up about shoulder height they don’t have as far to go to protect you head:

There is suttle elbow positioning combined with forearm angling that won’t leave a lot of openings on your body. The thing is this can look very natural and therefore not threatening.

Another self defense concept is using an offset side stance. This protects your groin and moves your center line targets off center so any straight blows landed there are going to be hitting at an angle instead of directly perpendicular. This also minimizes your profile you look less intimidating or threatening.

Bending your knees a little bit so they aren’t locked out could save a knee from getting kicked out. This also gives you more mobility and maneuverability. Maneuverability is very important to this. It also makes you a little shorter and less intimidating or threatening.

Trying to be less threatening can be useful in trying to defuse a confrontation. But it can also be useful to stroke an opponents ego so he makes a mistake. [/quote]

Excellent post. I work in mental health and we get occasional- very poor- training on how to defuse a situation and what you have posted here is the essence of what works. I’d also add that the hand/arm extended gives you an awareness of how far your opponent is and therefore where to strike if needed. I like to off set his center, usually to his right so as to be able to pre-empt a right punch (I assume he is in that 90% category of righties).The arm’s length give you enough peripheral vision to avoid the tunnel vision that got the guy in the video’s clock cleaned. If the opponent moves within the arms length then that’s an attack or at least a serious threat and at that point it’s game on and you have to react quickly and decisively until you can either get out of there or the threat is over, whichever is first.

And Sifu, I really like the idea that you can defend yourself from a much better fighter if you understand self defense. I had a jujitsu teacher that emphasized the idea that there is a great difference between self defense and pure fighting and I think your post explains this very well. Please post more often.

22

Thanks Josann, something you pointed out that I forgot to specifically mention, is a crucial part of this strategy is keeping the other person at an arms length away from you. They don’t need to get any closer and if they do you need to immediately start taking action to either restore that distance. You don’t want to let them get up in your face like two fighters at a weigh in. Something we don’t see much of here in the US probably because we don’t play soccer is headbutting. But in places like Britain that is how a lot of fights start is with a “Liverpool kiss”. Here is one of my favorite British self defense instructors, demonstrating the technique.

Paul Kaye - Jacki Chan - YouTube

Here is an even better use of the technique in a proper contextual setting, at 0:26
- YouTube

23

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Okay. This video covers an important basic concept of self defense that can do more to save your ass than just knowing how to fight yet it gets overlooked. The reason why is probably because it isn’t something that strokes our ego like being able to simply dominate and beat someone up. As he says in the video you have to keep your ego in check for this to work.

The concept here is that you can be in a self defense situation long before the first kick or punch in a fight is thrown. This one of the areas where self defense and combat sport radically diverge. In a boxing match or an MMA match you are going to have signal from a referee when it is time to fight that you don’t get in self defense.

How you handle the prefight jockeying for position can really do a lot to determine the outcome. You don’t necessarily need to be bigger, stronger, faster or even a better fighter than the other guy if he makes mistakes in his positioning.

That video of the guy getting knocked out is a good example of what not to do. Because he was taller than everyone else he felt dominant which kicked in his ego. So he stepped right up to his opponent to tower over him and try to dominate him. The problem with that, is being so close he had to devote all his concentration on the man right in front of him because he would have very little reaction time if he did something. This put him in a state of tunnel vision.

If he had kept a few steps back he would have been able to look around him and see who was trying to outflank him and move into his blind spot. Also he would have been more likely to sense someone moving from his side to his rear in his peripheral vision without having to look around. When he stepped up on the man in front he moved the guy who knocked him out into his blind spot without the guy having to do anything.

He also made it more confrontational so the other guy felt justified in sucker punching him. As tall as he was he probably had a reach advantage on all of them but he gave it away by getting too close. With that reach he could have used the same check that Thompson used in the video where he pushed on his opponents closest shoulder and angled off.

I could go on but I’ll leave you with this. There are principles of fighting that you can use in the prefight confrontation. ie Range is important, keeping the other person away gives more reaction time and also allows greater awareness of what is going on around you making it easier to deal with multiple opponents.

Body positioning can be decisive. If you hold your hands up about shoulder height they don’t have as far to go to protect you head:

There is suttle elbow positioning combined with forearm angling that won’t leave a lot of openings on your body. The thing is this can look very natural and therefore not threatening.

Another self defense concept is using an offset side stance. This protects your groin and moves your center line targets off center so any straight blows landed there are going to be hitting at an angle instead of directly perpendicular. This also minimizes your profile you look less intimidating or threatening.

Bending your knees a little bit so they aren’t locked out could save a knee from getting kicked out. This also gives you more mobility and maneuverability. Maneuverability is very important to this. It also makes you a little shorter and less intimidating or threatening.

Trying to be less threatening can be useful in trying to defuse a confrontation. But it can also be useful to stroke an opponents ego so he makes a mistake. [/quote]

Good post.

There are problems with using a side stance though (at least if you are talking about a traditional side stance) for self defense purposes.

  1. while you protect you groin and make it harder to land a solid body blow, you also make it much easier for your opponent to get behind you (or at least an angle on you); very very bad news if they’ve got a weapons (especially a blade)

  2. you basically take your rear side hand and foot out of the fight, essentially taking away two of your best striking weapons

  3. you substantially weaken your rear “drive” leg by turning it out (toes pointing perpendicular to your opponent), making you more susceptible to collision type attacks (tackles, takedowns, etc…)

24

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Okay. This video covers an important basic concept of self defense that can do more to save your ass than just knowing how to fight yet it gets overlooked. The reason why is probably because it isn’t something that strokes our ego like being able to simply dominate and beat someone up. As he says in the video you have to keep your ego in check for this to work.

The concept here is that you can be in a self defense situation long before the first kick or punch in a fight is thrown. This one of the areas where self defense and combat sport radically diverge. In a boxing match or an MMA match you are going to have signal from a referee when it is time to fight that you don’t get in self defense.

How you handle the prefight jockeying for position can really do a lot to determine the outcome. You don’t necessarily need to be bigger, stronger, faster or even a better fighter than the other guy if he makes mistakes in his positioning.

That video of the guy getting knocked out is a good example of what not to do. Because he was taller than everyone else he felt dominant which kicked in his ego. So he stepped right up to his opponent to tower over him and try to dominate him. The problem with that, is being so close he had to devote all his concentration on the man right in front of him because he would have very little reaction time if he did something. This put him in a state of tunnel vision.

If he had kept a few steps back he would have been able to look around him and see who was trying to outflank him and move into his blind spot. Also he would have been more likely to sense someone moving from his side to his rear in his peripheral vision without having to look around. When he stepped up on the man in front he moved the guy who knocked him out into his blind spot without the guy having to do anything.

He also made it more confrontational so the other guy felt justified in sucker punching him. As tall as he was he probably had a reach advantage on all of them but he gave it away by getting too close. With that reach he could have used the same check that Thompson used in the video where he pushed on his opponents closest shoulder and angled off.

I could go on but I’ll leave you with this. There are principles of fighting that you can use in the prefight confrontation. ie Range is important, keeping the other person away gives more reaction time and also allows greater awareness of what is going on around you making it easier to deal with multiple opponents.

Body positioning can be decisive. If you hold your hands up about shoulder height they don’t have as far to go to protect you head:

There is suttle elbow positioning combined with forearm angling that won’t leave a lot of openings on your body. The thing is this can look very natural and therefore not threatening.

Another self defense concept is using an offset side stance. This protects your groin and moves your center line targets off center so any straight blows landed there are going to be hitting at an angle instead of directly perpendicular. This also minimizes your profile you look less intimidating or threatening.

Bending your knees a little bit so they aren’t locked out could save a knee from getting kicked out. This also gives you more mobility and maneuverability. Maneuverability is very important to this. It also makes you a little shorter and less intimidating or threatening.

Trying to be less threatening can be useful in trying to defuse a confrontation. But it can also be useful to stroke an opponents ego so he makes a mistake. [/quote]

Good post.

There are problems with using a side stance though (at least if you are talking about a traditional side stance) for self defense purposes.

  1. while you protect you groin and make it harder to land a solid body blow, you also make it much easier for your opponent to get behind you (or at least an angle on you); very very bad news if they’ve got a weapons (especially a blade)[/quote]

Just how far into a side stance are you thinking of? I didn’t mean a complete side stance as in Naihanchi (if you know what that this). I was thinking of an offset Seisan aka Jeet Kune Do on guard stance like Thompson used in his video where you are not completely turned to the side. The reason for doing that is to minimize your profile making you a smaller target.

There are going to be trade offs with any stance. I think the on guard is the best because it minimizes your target area (especially the groin), and the feet are wide enough apart to be able to generate good power but not so wide that it limits mobility. Having one foot back also helps you to keep your balance if someone shoves you, or you can even go with the shove and use a drunken style front kick to their groin as you go backwards. It is also harder to reach around the rear leg if your opponent tries a double leg takedown.

If you aren’t completely turned to the side it isn’t going to be so easy for someone to slip behind you. Besides getting behind someone can be dangerous. I’ve known people who have been seriously injured by someone who wasn’t even trying to hurt them. I know several people who have had their eye socket unintentionally broken or shattered from stepping behind someone as they were throwing a spinning backfist and getting hit with the point of the elbow. You also set yourself up to walk into a spinning back kick which can be a very powerful technique. That by the way is one of the proper ways to use that kick instead of how it usually gets used as an offensive technique. If it goes low it can take out a knee, or a little higher the groin/lower abdomen which can also cause serious injuries.

If someone has a knife I think it is a really good idea to minimize your target area. With a heavy emphasis on keeping your heart covered.

[quote]
2) you basically take your rear side hand and foot out of the fight, essentially taking away two of your best striking weapons [/quote]

No you haven’t. There are still ways to use them even from a complete side stance. Haven’t you ever heard of pivots? Or side kick?

I’m going to digress here for a moment. Naihanchi kata which is the oldest kata teaches fighting side to side with your back against a wall fighting off multiple attackers. A modern use of this you could be between two cars and one person comes at you from the front of the car while another comes from the back of the car. In this scenario if you square off to face one the other will have your back and you have to fend off both at the same time. So side fighting is a useful skill to have for self defense. So don’t be too quick to diss it like Bruce Lee did.

[quote]
3) you substantially weaken your rear “drive” leg by turning it out (toes pointing perpendicular to your opponent), making you more susceptible to collision type attacks (tackles, takedowns, etc…)[/quote]

If that is a problem for you then don’t turn them perpendicular. I wouldn’t do it either. I use my rear leg for pushing off into angles, which at this point in the confrontation is what you are using.

25

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Okay. This video covers an important basic concept of self defense that can do more to save your ass than just knowing how to fight yet it gets overlooked. The reason why is probably because it isn’t something that strokes our ego like being able to simply dominate and beat someone up. As he says in the video you have to keep your ego in check for this to work.

The concept here is that you can be in a self defense situation long before the first kick or punch in a fight is thrown. This one of the areas where self defense and combat sport radically diverge. In a boxing match or an MMA match you are going to have signal from a referee when it is time to fight that you don’t get in self defense.

How you handle the prefight jockeying for position can really do a lot to determine the outcome. You don’t necessarily need to be bigger, stronger, faster or even a better fighter than the other guy if he makes mistakes in his positioning.

That video of the guy getting knocked out is a good example of what not to do. Because he was taller than everyone else he felt dominant which kicked in his ego. So he stepped right up to his opponent to tower over him and try to dominate him. The problem with that, is being so close he had to devote all his concentration on the man right in front of him because he would have very little reaction time if he did something. This put him in a state of tunnel vision.

If he had kept a few steps back he would have been able to look around him and see who was trying to outflank him and move into his blind spot. Also he would have been more likely to sense someone moving from his side to his rear in his peripheral vision without having to look around. When he stepped up on the man in front he moved the guy who knocked him out into his blind spot without the guy having to do anything.

He also made it more confrontational so the other guy felt justified in sucker punching him. As tall as he was he probably had a reach advantage on all of them but he gave it away by getting too close. With that reach he could have used the same check that Thompson used in the video where he pushed on his opponents closest shoulder and angled off.

I could go on but I’ll leave you with this. There are principles of fighting that you can use in the prefight confrontation. ie Range is important, keeping the other person away gives more reaction time and also allows greater awareness of what is going on around you making it easier to deal with multiple opponents.

Body positioning can be decisive. If you hold your hands up about shoulder height they don’t have as far to go to protect you head:

There is suttle elbow positioning combined with forearm angling that won’t leave a lot of openings on your body. The thing is this can look very natural and therefore not threatening.

Another self defense concept is using an offset side stance. This protects your groin and moves your center line targets off center so any straight blows landed there are going to be hitting at an angle instead of directly perpendicular. This also minimizes your profile you look less intimidating or threatening.

Bending your knees a little bit so they aren’t locked out could save a knee from getting kicked out. This also gives you more mobility and maneuverability. Maneuverability is very important to this. It also makes you a little shorter and less intimidating or threatening.

Trying to be less threatening can be useful in trying to defuse a confrontation. But it can also be useful to stroke an opponents ego so he makes a mistake. [/quote]

Good post.

There are problems with using a side stance though (at least if you are talking about a traditional side stance) for self defense purposes.

  1. while you protect you groin and make it harder to land a solid body blow, you also make it much easier for your opponent to get behind you (or at least an angle on you); very very bad news if they’ve got a weapons (especially a blade)[/quote]

Just how far into a side stance are you thinking of? I didn’t mean a complete side stance as in Naihanchi (if you know what that this). I was thinking of an offset Seisan aka Jeet Kune Do on guard stance like Thompson used in his video where you are not completely turned to the side. The reason for doing that is to minimize your profile making you a smaller target.

There are going to be trade offs with any stance. I think the on guard is the best because it minimizes your target area (especially the groin), and the feet are wide enough apart to be able to generate good power but not so wide that it limits mobility. Having one foot back also helps you to keep your balance if someone shoves you, or you can even go with the shove and use a drunken style front kick to their groin as you go backwards. It is also harder to reach around the rear leg if your opponent tries a double leg takedown.

If you aren’t completely turned to the side it isn’t going to be so easy for someone to slip behind you. Besides getting behind someone can be dangerous. I’ve known people who have been seriously injured by someone who wasn’t even trying to hurt them. I know several people who have had their eye socket unintentionally broken or shattered from stepping behind someone as they were throwing a spinning backfist and getting hit with the point of the elbow. You also set yourself up to walk into a spinning back kick which can be a very powerful technique. That by the way is one of the proper ways to use that kick instead of how it usually gets used as an offensive technique. If it goes low it can take out a knee, or a little higher the groin/lower abdomen which can also cause serious injuries.

If someone has a knife I think it is a really good idea to minimize your target area. With a heavy emphasis on keeping your heart covered.

[quote]
2) you basically take your rear side hand and foot out of the fight, essentially taking away two of your best striking weapons [/quote]

No you haven’t. There are still ways to use them even from a complete side stance. Haven’t you ever heard of pivots? Or side kick?

I’m going to digress here for a moment. Naihanchi kata which is the oldest kata teaches fighting side to side with your back against a wall fighting off multiple attackers. A modern use of this you could be between two cars and one person comes at you from the front of the car while another comes from the back of the car. In this scenario if you square off to face one the other will have your back and you have to fend off both at the same time. So side fighting is a useful skill to have for self defense. So don’t be too quick to diss it like Bruce Lee did.

[quote]
3) you substantially weaken your rear “drive” leg by turning it out (toes pointing perpendicular to your opponent), making you more susceptible to collision type attacks (tackles, takedowns, etc…)[/quote]

If that is a problem for you then don’t turn them perpendicular. I wouldn’t do it either. I use my rear leg for pushing off into angles, which at this point in the confrontation is what you are using. [/quote]

Ok, if you were talking more in terms of just having a lead and rear side, and not standing square, then I’d agree. When you said “side stance” to me that meant a completely side stance (Naihanchi as you called it).

In a multiple person scenario, yeah you are going to have to make adjustments to your stance and if you find yourself surrounded then facing to one side makes you automatically vulnerable to the other, so something like a side stance could work. In a one on one scenario though (or even one where there are multiples, but one is the immediate threat while the others are secondary threats, due to distance, level of perceived threat, etc…) you don’t want to go to full side stance.

Yeah, there are some techniques that you can employ from a full side stance, but far less than you can employ from an “on guard” stance.

And any time you turn your back to your opponent or they get behind you you are at a disadvantage, especially if they know what they are doing or have a weapon. You cannot see their attacks, they have all of their weapons while your weapon options are severely decreased, and it is much harder to defend their attacks even if you do see them coming. So, while things like spinning back fists and spinning back kicks are fun to practice, could be useful as last ditch desperation techniques should they get behind you and are inexperienced enough to not already be hitting or clinching you, and look great on film, they aren’t very practical weapons in most situations.

26

Geoff Thompson is awesome.

I love how candid he is in his writing and instruction. In one of his books, he openly admitted to shitting his pants before nearly every fight due to the adrenal dump (so to speak), and made some comment like “nobody admits this, but adrenaline is brown”.

27

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Okay. This video covers an important basic concept of self defense that can do more to save your ass than just knowing how to fight yet it gets overlooked. The reason why is probably because it isn’t something that strokes our ego like being able to simply dominate and beat someone up. As he says in the video you have to keep your ego in check for this to work.

The concept here is that you can be in a self defense situation long before the first kick or punch in a fight is thrown. This one of the areas where self defense and combat sport radically diverge. In a boxing match or an MMA match you are going to have signal from a referee when it is time to fight that you don’t get in self defense.

How you handle the prefight jockeying for position can really do a lot to determine the outcome. You don’t necessarily need to be bigger, stronger, faster or even a better fighter than the other guy if he makes mistakes in his positioning.

That video of the guy getting knocked out is a good example of what not to do. Because he was taller than everyone else he felt dominant which kicked in his ego. So he stepped right up to his opponent to tower over him and try to dominate him. The problem with that, is being so close he had to devote all his concentration on the man right in front of him because he would have very little reaction time if he did something. This put him in a state of tunnel vision.

If he had kept a few steps back he would have been able to look around him and see who was trying to outflank him and move into his blind spot. Also he would have been more likely to sense someone moving from his side to his rear in his peripheral vision without having to look around. When he stepped up on the man in front he moved the guy who knocked him out into his blind spot without the guy having to do anything.

He also made it more confrontational so the other guy felt justified in sucker punching him. As tall as he was he probably had a reach advantage on all of them but he gave it away by getting too close. With that reach he could have used the same check that Thompson used in the video where he pushed on his opponents closest shoulder and angled off.

I could go on but I’ll leave you with this. There are principles of fighting that you can use in the prefight confrontation. ie Range is important, keeping the other person away gives more reaction time and also allows greater awareness of what is going on around you making it easier to deal with multiple opponents.

Body positioning can be decisive. If you hold your hands up about shoulder height they don’t have as far to go to protect you head:

There is suttle elbow positioning combined with forearm angling that won’t leave a lot of openings on your body. The thing is this can look very natural and therefore not threatening.

Another self defense concept is using an offset side stance. This protects your groin and moves your center line targets off center so any straight blows landed there are going to be hitting at an angle instead of directly perpendicular. This also minimizes your profile you look less intimidating or threatening.

Bending your knees a little bit so they aren’t locked out could save a knee from getting kicked out. This also gives you more mobility and maneuverability. Maneuverability is very important to this. It also makes you a little shorter and less intimidating or threatening.

Trying to be less threatening can be useful in trying to defuse a confrontation. But it can also be useful to stroke an opponents ego so he makes a mistake. [/quote]

Good post.

There are problems with using a side stance though (at least if you are talking about a traditional side stance) for self defense purposes.

  1. while you protect you groin and make it harder to land a solid body blow, you also make it much easier for your opponent to get behind you (or at least an angle on you); very very bad news if they’ve got a weapons (especially a blade)[/quote]

Just how far into a side stance are you thinking of? I didn’t mean a complete side stance as in Naihanchi (if you know what that this). I was thinking of an offset Seisan aka Jeet Kune Do on guard stance like Thompson used in his video where you are not completely turned to the side. The reason for doing that is to minimize your profile making you a smaller target.

There are going to be trade offs with any stance. I think the on guard is the best because it minimizes your target area (especially the groin), and the feet are wide enough apart to be able to generate good power but not so wide that it limits mobility. Having one foot back also helps you to keep your balance if someone shoves you, or you can even go with the shove and use a drunken style front kick to their groin as you go backwards. It is also harder to reach around the rear leg if your opponent tries a double leg takedown.

If you aren’t completely turned to the side it isn’t going to be so easy for someone to slip behind you. Besides getting behind someone can be dangerous. I’ve known people who have been seriously injured by someone who wasn’t even trying to hurt them. I know several people who have had their eye socket unintentionally broken or shattered from stepping behind someone as they were throwing a spinning backfist and getting hit with the point of the elbow. You also set yourself up to walk into a spinning back kick which can be a very powerful technique. That by the way is one of the proper ways to use that kick instead of how it usually gets used as an offensive technique. If it goes low it can take out a knee, or a little higher the groin/lower abdomen which can also cause serious injuries.

If someone has a knife I think it is a really good idea to minimize your target area. With a heavy emphasis on keeping your heart covered.

[quote]
2) you basically take your rear side hand and foot out of the fight, essentially taking away two of your best striking weapons [/quote]

No you haven’t. There are still ways to use them even from a complete side stance. Haven’t you ever heard of pivots? Or side kick?

I’m going to digress here for a moment. Naihanchi kata which is the oldest kata teaches fighting side to side with your back against a wall fighting off multiple attackers. A modern use of this you could be between two cars and one person comes at you from the front of the car while another comes from the back of the car. In this scenario if you square off to face one the other will have your back and you have to fend off both at the same time. So side fighting is a useful skill to have for self defense. So don’t be too quick to diss it like Bruce Lee did.

[quote]
3) you substantially weaken your rear “drive” leg by turning it out (toes pointing perpendicular to your opponent), making you more susceptible to collision type attacks (tackles, takedowns, etc…)[/quote]

If that is a problem for you then don’t turn them perpendicular. I wouldn’t do it either. I use my rear leg for pushing off into angles, which at this point in the confrontation is what you are using. [/quote]

Ok, if you were talking more in terms of just having a lead and rear side, and not standing square, then I’d agree. When you said “side stance” to me that meant a completely side stance (Naihanchi as you called it). [/quote]

The basic idea I was trying to get at was minimize your profile so your target area is reduced while making it more difficult to get at more vital targets like the groin. I can guarantee that you don’t your first indication that the fight has begun to be getting a foot or knee planted in your groin. You have to remember this is real world not MMA.

[quote]
In a multiple person scenario, yeah you are going to have to make adjustments to your stance and if you find yourself surrounded then facing to one side makes you automatically vulnerable to the other, so something like a side stance could work. In a one on one scenario though (or even one where there are multiples, but one is the immediate threat while the others are secondary threats, due to distance, level of perceived threat, etc…) you don’t want to go to full side stance. [/quote]

Staying with the pre-fight scenario you could have to be dealing with one guy who is right in front of you and is pissed and have his friend standing to your side. I’ve been in that situation.

[quote]
Yeah, there are some techniques that you can employ from a full side stance, but far less than you can employ from an “on guard” stance.[/quote]

That is why the on guard stance is the preferred stance. But it is still beneficial to have some practice with side stance as well, because there are scenarios where you may have to use it.

[quote]
And any time you turn your back to your opponent or they get behind you you are at a disadvantage, especially if they know what they are doing or have a weapon. You cannot see their attacks, they have all of their weapons while your weapon options are severely decreased, and it is much harder to defend their attacks even if you do see them coming. So, while things like spinning back fists and spinning back kicks are fun to practice, could be useful as last ditch desperation techniques should they get behind you and are inexperienced enough to not already be hitting or clinching you, and look great on film, they aren’t very practical weapons in most situations. [/quote]

Moving to my opponents back is one of my favorite strategies. So I’m not dissing it. However painful experience has taught me it can be dangerous. I’ve been hurt by people who weren’t even trying to hurt me and I’ve seen others get badly hurt. The reason why someone got hurt is because their opponent couldn’t see the person behind them, got excited, spun on them and cleaned their clock with something they weren’t even trying to hit with. In close behind someones back is a place where having your guard up is imperative.

“In most situations” one would not use a spinning back or hook kick. While there are a lot of fighters, (good ones even) who use those techniques who do not know the proper application of them I am not one of them. ie I have seen George St Pierre attack someone (might have been Matt Hughes)with a spinning back kick. Turning your back involves risk, because you expose your back. That is why it is wrong to use spinning techniques offensively. Their proper use is as riposte. Because your opponent is in the middle of doing something while you are spinning or you even use the spin as a block that creates an opening.

28

[quote]Sifu wrote:
The basic idea I was trying to get at was minimize your profile so your target area is reduced while making it more difficult to get at more vital targets like the groin. I can guarantee that you don’t your first indication that the fight has begun to be getting a foot or knee planted in your groin. You have to remember this is real world not MMA.
[/quote]

Believe me, I realize that we are not talking about MMA. And I’m not arguing at all that “blading” your body is a bad idea. You just don’t want to take it too far and go to a full side stance because you really don’t know what your opponent is going to do, what their skill set(s)/experience might be, if they have any weapons on them, etc…

Sure, in which case you would want to try to “line them up” so that you were using one as an “encumbrance” to the other one getting to you. Essentially allowing you to only have to fight one at a time. Or you would want to try to put distance between you and both of them to allow you more time to react should either of them launch an attack (this would also allow you to not have to focus on either one until they did attack you). Being surrounded is a very bad place to be and you don’t want to stay there if at all possible.

I’ll agree with that.

Which is why you must either:

  1. have your guard up (like you said)

or

  1. get very, very close and know how to position yourself behind them to take away their ability to strike you or spin on you (a proper “rear clinch” position)

[quote]
“In most situations” one would not use a spinning back or hook kick. While there are a lot of fighters, (good ones even) who use those techniques who do not know the proper application of them I am not one of them. ie I have seen George St Pierre attack someone (might have been Matt Hughes)with a spinning back kick. Turning your back involves risk, because you expose your back. That is why it is wrong to use spinning techniques offensively. Their proper use is as riposte. Because your opponent is in the middle of doing something while you are spinning or you even use the spin as a block that creates an opening.[/quote]

In my opinion, what determines whether an application is a proper one or not is greatly dependent on whether it lands. You do have guys like GSP, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, etc… who are phenomenal athletes and can effectively use things like spinning attacks, even though most people could not use them in the same manner effectively. So, for those guys, using the techniques offensively might be proper. But the majority of us are not them.

Even as a riposte they’re pretty risky compared to techniques which don’t involve exposing your back. But hey, if for whatever reason someone does get an angle on you and get behind you, and you want to and know how to throw a mean spinning hammerfist/backfist/elbow/back kick, then might as well give it a shot. Hopefully at least you’ll wind up facing them again, or at best landing a solid strike and hurting them. Personally I wouldn’t be throwing any kicks though as they compromise balance/mobility too much.

29

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:
The basic idea I was trying to get at was minimize your profile so your target area is reduced while making it more difficult to get at more vital targets like the groin. I can guarantee that you don’t your first indication that the fight has begun to be getting a foot or knee planted in your groin. You have to remember this is real world not MMA.
[/quote]

Believe me, I realize that we are not talking about MMA. And I’m not arguing at all that “blading” your body is a bad idea. You just don’t want to take it too far and go to a full side stance because you really don’t know what your opponent is going to do, what their skill set(s)/experience might be, if they have any weapons on them, etc… [/quote]

I can agree with that. The important thing is maintaining that cushion of distance and positioning your body in such a way that you aren’t giving up a bunch of easy targets. To keep that distance you might have to use a full repertoire of skills, from stances to angles to pivots.

Sure, in which case you would want to try to “line them up” so that you were using one as an “encumbrance” to the other one getting to you. Essentially allowing you to only have to fight one at a time. Or you would want to try to put distance between you and both of them to allow you more time to react should either of them launch an attack (this would also allow you to not have to focus on either one until they did attack you). Being surrounded is a very bad place to be and you don’t want to stay there if at all possible. [/quote]

Sometimes it’s not possible to line people up like that. You have to remember that you are not actually in a fight yet, so there are some limitations on what can you do otherwise you will cause a fight.

I’ll agree with that.

Which is why you must either:

  1. have your guard up (like you said)

or

  1. get very, very close and know how to position yourself behind them to take away their ability to strike you or spin on you (a proper “rear clinch” position)

[quote]
“In most situations” one would not use a spinning back or hook kick. While there are a lot of fighters, (good ones even) who use those techniques who do not know the proper application of them I am not one of them. ie I have seen George St Pierre attack someone (might have been Matt Hughes)with a spinning back kick. Turning your back involves risk, because you expose your back. That is why it is wrong to use spinning techniques offensively. Their proper use is as riposte. Because your opponent is in the middle of doing something while you are spinning or you even use the spin as a block that creates an opening.[/quote]

In my opinion, what determines whether an application is a proper one or not is greatly dependent on whether it lands. You do have guys like GSP, Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, etc… who are phenomenal athletes and can effectively use things like spinning attacks, even though most people could not use them in the same manner effectively. So, for those guys, using the techniques offensively might be proper. But the majority of us are not them.

Even as a riposte they’re pretty risky compared to techniques which don’t involve exposing your back. But hey, if for whatever reason someone does get an angle on you and get behind you, and you want to and know how to throw a mean spinning hammerfist/backfist/elbow/back kick, then might as well give it a shot. Hopefully at least you’ll wind up facing them again, or at best landing a solid strike and hurting them. Personally I wouldn’t be throwing any kicks though as they compromise balance/mobility too much. [/quote]

Yes some fighters can use their superior athleticism to get away with using spinning techniques in ways that are high risk. Plus unless they have encountered it more than a few times most fighters don’t have a clue how to deal with it. Which also makes it easier to get away with.

Kicks aren’t necessarily the best techniques. On the other hand spinning elbow/hammerfist are absolutely brutal close in at head height against someone who traps and pulls on your lead hand to help a move to your back. All you have to do is go with it.