The Fate of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

Tookie worse than the Mafia? Pretty bad analogy and forgetting one simple fact; they didn’t catch John or Capone on a murder - if they had, things might have been different. Tookie was caught and convicted and the law of the State prescribed a legal penalty. I’m not real comfortable with your sliding scale of criminal judgment (well, he’s not quite bad as this guy and this guy didn’t get death).

There are two basic questions here; Is he guilty of murder and is the death penalty legal in CA? Yes and yes. I don’t see anyone making a legitimate case that he is innocent. When he took a life, he forfeited his - and he forfeited any chance at “rehabilitation”. So what he changed? Should I get all my traffic court money of the last twenty years refunded and the points off my record b/c I no longer drive like an asshole (I do but I’m making a point). All other discussions are whimsical debates about the justice system, the death penalty, etc. He was rightfully convicted and the death penalty was legal in CA. It’s not like I don’t emphathize; I’m no angel and never will be - but for the grace of god go I - but he’s guilty, convicted and sentenced…time to go.

62

[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, the appeals process ensures that the convict gets true justice? This goes for even those who are innocent?.[/quote]

I think that in capital offenses, this scenario is highly unlikely. The due diligence required is enormous. I’m not saying this is true in all criminal cases, but I think that in capital cases - “beyond a reasonable doubt” is stating the burden of proof by the prosecution lightly.

I didn’t do that. I am specifically referring to capital cases - this one in particular.

I might tend to agree that the criminal justice system has holes in it. I am sure there are innocent men and women behind bars as we speak, but I don’t think that there are very many on death row. If there is an innocent man on death row - he either has a really shitty lawyer, or the process has not played itself out yet.

63

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Interesting fact: In 2004, the US was fourth in terms of number of people executed. Let’s take a look at who else made this list.

  1. CHINA (At least 3,400 Executions)

  2. IRAN (Approx. 159)

  3. VIET NAM (Approx. 64)

  4. UNITED STATES (59)

  5. Saudi Arabia (33)

  6. Pakistan (15)

  7. Kuwait (9)

  8. Bangladesh (7)

  9. Egypt (6)

Singapore (6)

Yemen (6)

Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=127&scid=30#interexec

Now…aren’t we supposed to be better, more civilized than fucking Iran? Yemen?

  1. I don’t think that this is really a question of being “civilized” - that assumes a whole lot of conclusions.

  2. I would take those stats with a large grain of salt. Firstly, there are quite a few countries not named on that list who apparently aren’t providing their stats (where are the central African countries? Cuba?). Secondly, the list assumes even those providing the stats aren’t underreporting, either on purpose to make themselves “look better”, or inadvertently because it’s too hard for the centarl government to collect data on the sentences imposed by the locals, i.e. tribal leaders, etc.[/quote]

I agree Boston- but didn’t you just refute #1 with #2?

If it has little to do with being civilized, and you agree, that’s fine. But then, in defense, you then say that there are those who don’t report stats. Either way, you are lumping the US together with African tribesman, warlords from other nations, and very oppressive governments (the Islamic ones on that list).

I don’t see GB, Germnany, Japan, or Spain on those lists. It is us, the “Islamo-fascists”, and unnamed other third world countries. Maybe it is a question of civilization?

64

[quote]rainjack wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Interesting fact: In 2004, the US was fourth in terms of number of people executed. Let’s take a look at who else made this list.

  1. CHINA (At least 3,400 Executions)

  2. IRAN (Approx. 159)

  3. VIET NAM (Approx. 64)

  4. UNITED STATES (59)

  5. Saudi Arabia (33)

  6. Pakistan (15)

  7. Kuwait (9)

  8. Bangladesh (7)

  9. Egypt (6)

Singapore (6)

Yemen (6)

Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=127&scid=30#interexec

Now…aren’t we supposed to be better, more civilized than fucking Iran? Yemen?

Nice try harry - but weight those numbers against the total population, or the prison population - and then get back to us.

I hardly think comparing a country of 300 million to a country of only 1 million is being objective. But coming from you I understand. [/quote]

Coming from a person who’s proud his state executes the underage and mentally retarded, I can understand where you’re coming from, too.

65

[quote]

harris447 wrote:
Interesting fact: In 2004, the US was fourth in terms of number of people executed. Let’s take a look at who else made this list.

  1. CHINA (At least 3,400 Executions)

  2. IRAN (Approx. 159)

  3. VIET NAM (Approx. 64)

  4. UNITED STATES (59)

  5. Saudi Arabia (33)

  6. Pakistan (15)

  7. Kuwait (9)

  8. Bangladesh (7)

  9. Egypt (6)

Singapore (6)

Yemen (6)

Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=127&scid=30#interexec

Now…aren’t we supposed to be better, more civilized than fucking Iran? Yemen?

BostonBarrister wrote:

  1. I don’t think that this is really a question of being “civilized” - that assumes a whole lot of conclusions.

  2. I would take those stats with a large grain of salt. Firstly, there are quite a few countries not named on that list who apparently aren’t providing their stats (where are the central African countries? Cuba?). Secondly, the list assumes even those providing the stats aren’t underreporting, either on purpose to make themselves “look better”, or inadvertently because it’s too hard for the centarl government to collect data on the sentences imposed by the locals, i.e. tribal leaders, etc.

FightinIrish26 wrote:

I agree Boston- but didn’t you just refute #1 with #2?

If it has little to do with being civilized, and you agree, that’s fine. But then, in defense, you then say that there are those who don’t report stats. Either way, you are lumping the US together with African tribesman, warlords from other nations, and very oppressive governments (the Islamic ones on that list). [/quote]

I don’t follow you. How is saying that, by classifying use of the death penalty as inherently uncivilized, you are assuming too much contradicted by pointing out that if you are trying to rank countries, “in the world” based on reported government-enforced executions, then in order to do so properly you need to ascertain that you have a properly compiled set of numbers?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I don’t see GB, Germnany, Japan, or Spain on those lists. It is us, the “Islamo-fascists”, and unnamed other third world countries. Maybe it is a question of civilization?[/quote]

I don’t think that the practice or absence of particular practice amounts to a proof of civilization or lack thereof. If all the countries in Europe decided the cease the practice of wiping their behinds, I wouldn’t care either. It’s a version of the ad populi fallacy.

BTW, there are 74 countries that allow for the use of the death penalty, including Japan.

66

[quote]harris447 wrote:
Coming from a person who’s proud his state executes the underage and mentally retarded, I can understand where you’re coming from, too.
[/quote]

I am indeed proud of the fact that if you commit a capital offense in the State of Texas, we will kill you.

But that really has little to do with your slanted and biased ‘poll numbers’ from a anti-death penalty website, now does it?

I asked you to weight the numbers according to general population, or prison population - and all I see from you is yet another lame attempt to insult me. I can’t say I am suprised at your capitulation or your desire to insult me.

Kinda smells like propagandist bullshit to me.

67

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I am indeed proud of the fact that if you commit a capital offense in the State of Texas, we will kill you.
[/quote]

I have no idea why the fact that texas has executed people that would never been allowed to be executed anywhere else is a thing to be proud of.

68

[quote]fahd wrote:
I have no idea why the fact that texas has executed people that would never been allowed to be executed anywhere else is a thing to be proud of.
[/quote]

Well - they should have murdered their victims anywhere else but Texas.

Can you cite any specific examples of such a thing occuring? I’d ask harry, but he seems to have a problem with actually backing up his propaganda.

69

[quote]rainjack wrote:
fahd wrote:
I have no idea why the fact that texas has executed people that would never been allowed to be executed anywhere else is a thing to be proud of.

Well - they should have murdered their victims anywhere else but Texas.

Can you cite any specific examples of such a thing occuring? I’d ask harry, but he seems to have a problem with actually backing up his propaganda.
[/quote]

The point, schmuck, is that we should not be on that list at all. We should fllow the lead of every other civilized nation and abolish the death penalty.

Or, we could become the United States of Texas and keep executing people who were minors when they commited their crimes…

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engAMR511052001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\USA

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engACT500111998

…or mentally ill/retarded.

Texas Lags on Supreme Court’s Mental Retardation Ruling
Texas legislators have failed to pass laws that could bring the state into compliance with the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling in Atkins v. Virginia that bans the execution of those with mental retardation. Nearly a year after the Court’s ruling in Atkins, Texas officials have no idea how many of the 449 death row inmates have the disability, and no safeguards to ensure that those affected by the ruling are not put to death. Most of the legislative efforts have focused on identifying defendants with mental retardation before their trials, not finding those who are already on death row. Houston defense attorney Dick Burr stated, “People facing the death penalty here are dependent on the good will of their lawyers. It means that some people are lucky and others are not.” The state’s testing has revealed that 7% of Texas convicts have IQs below 70, the commonly accepted benchmark for mental retardation. Thus, there could be as many as 31 condemned inmates who qualify to have their death sentences lifted. Texas Governor Rick Perry has stated that he believes that no one on death row has mental retardation, and his belief is echoed by Houston assistant district attorney Roe Wilson, who handles most of Harris County’s capital appeals. “I don’t know of any who are mentally retarded,” Wilson said. (Houston Chronicle, May 11, 2003)

Texas Governor Vetoes Legislation to Ban Execution of those with Mental Retardation
A bill to prohibit the execution of the mentally retarded in Texas was vetoed by Governor Rick Perry on June 17. The bill would have prohibited the death penalty if jurors determine that the defendant is mentally retarded. In vetoing the legislation, Perry stated that although there is no statutory prohibition, “we do not execute mentally retarded murderers [in Texas] today.” Without a legislative ban, those with mental retardation can be sentenced to death because jurors are only required to consider a defendant’s mental capacity as a mitigating factor during sentencing.
Legislation similar to that rejected by Perry was signed last week by Florida Governor Jeb Bush, and is still under consideration by the governors in Connecticut and Missouri. (Washington Post, 6/18/01)

70

The biggest problem with this case is that if you are going to put someone to death, do it. Don’t fuck about. You aren’t meant to rehabilitate someone, say “nice work”, and then kill them. That makes no sense.

71

Probe points to wrongful execution

Nov 23, 2005

A Texas man executed in 1993 for a robbery-murder was probably wrongfully convicted, according to a prosecutor, the jury forewoman, an alibi witness and even a victim, the Houston Chronicle said on Tuesday.

“Ruben Cantu had nothing to do with the murder, attempted murder and robbery of the two men … I should know,” a friend and fellow gang member, David Garza, told the newspaper.

Cantu, only 17 when the crime took place, was convicted of murdering Pedro Gomez during a 1984 robbery largely on the testimony of a single eyewitness, Juan Moreno.

Moreno, then 19, an illegal immigrant wounded during the robbery, now says he is positive Cantu was not at the scene.

Moreno twice failed to identify Cantu to police, but did so when they asked him a third time, the Chronicle said. Cantu was put to death by lethal injection in 1993, when he was 26.

“(Police) told me they were certain it was him, and that’s why I testified,” Moreno told the newspaper.

“That was bad to blame someone that was not there.”

Texas, President George W. Bush’s home state, leads the United States in executions, with 355 since 1982.

A Democrat, Ann Richards, was governor when Cantu was put to death.

Cantu would not be executed now - the US Supreme Court ruled this year that it executions are illegal for crimes committed by minors.

Garza confessed to robbery as part of the 1984 break-in in San Antonio. Currently in prison for another crime, he said he was with another teen who committed the murder, not Cantu.

Garza had immunity from further prosecution under a plea deal, but he only sent a cryptic note offering help to Cantu’s lawyer a month before the execution date.

The attorney, Nancy Barohn, said Garza never offered anything concrete and Cantu never indicated that Garza could clear him.

Miriam Ward, forewoman of the jury that sent Cantu to his fate, said the entire process failed.

“We did the best we could with the information we had, but with a little extra work, a little extra effort, maybe we’d have gotten the right information,” she told the newspaper.

“The bottom line is an innocent person was put to death for it. We all have our finger in that.”

The Bexar County District Attorney at the time, Sam Millsap Jr., now agrees police led Moreno to the identification.

“We have a system that permits people to be convicted based on evidence that could be wrong because it’s mistaken or it’s corrupt,” Millsap, now in private practice, told the Chronicle.

The Bexar County District Attorney’s Office, which prosecuted, did not return a call from Reuters on Tuesday.

72

Fahd,

What are you, a conspiracy theorist? Innocent people NEVER get convicted, the process is very stringent you know…

73

[quote]Massif wrote:
The biggest problem with this case is that if you are going to put someone to death, do it. Don’t fuck about. You aren’t meant to rehabilitate someone, say “nice work”, and then kill them. That makes no sense.[/quote]

What makes no sense is killing people in cold blood.

The system is what it is. I doubt anyone but lawyers are happy that it takes 25 years for the absolute guilty to receive their just sentence.

For all those going to reply about the wrongful deaths, we are not deliberating the death penalty here. This is about one case and its rightful outcome.

Now be a man Tookie and take the needle.
And the rest of you lefty Lucy’s, waste your time and effort on someone worth a pinch of shit.

74

The sick thing is that not only he MAY be innocent, but he was 17 when he “could’ve” committed the crime.

75

This guy is a natural leader and a T-man ( but an evil one) and could have done many many more positive things with himself than killing somebody, going to prison and starting multiple branches of a viscous street gang. I feel sorry for him in a way, that he chose to do that to himself and has to be put to death but the fact of the matter is that he deserves to be put to death if not for the direct murder of his but for the murder’s of his gang minions that being a FOUNDER of the crips entails.

If he wasn’t the type of guy to be in a street gang and kill people he might have been a cool guy to hang out with.

76

I think most folks around here think that if he’s guilty he should fry… though the discussion did actually widen for a while.

Heaven forbid!

77

[quote]fahd wrote:
The sick thing is that not only he MAY be innocent, but he was 17 when he “could’ve” committed the crime.[/quote]

17 year olds IMHO have the mental capacity to understand that the pulling of the trigger may end a life. They know what death means, that you don’t bounce back like a cartoon.

By 17, you are probably far beyond the age where you should have realized this, as well as to have conquered the childish impulsive nature we all have, so we won’t make a rash decision and hurt somebody. Thats why 17 year olds are commonly tried as adults in america.

If America really wants to reduce the number of violent crimes i beleive that we should enact gun control laws to restrict access to violent means of solving problems but this is a whole other thread and has been discussed and pored over in many previous ones.

78

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Tookie worse than the Mafia? Pretty bad analogy and forgetting one simple fact; they didn’t catch John or Capone on a murder - if they had, things might have been different. Tookie was caught and convicted and the law of the State prescribed a legal penalty. I’m not real comfortable with your sliding scale of criminal judgment (well, he’s not quite bad as this guy and this guy didn’t get death).
[/quote]

He probably wasn’t as bad as the classic mafia in terms of dollars of illeagal trafficing, or influence of political events but on the effect of the everyday joe and jane Bob he was much worse.

The Crips are called a street gang for a reason , that they act pretty much out in the open. Drive by’s , crack dealing, gang warfare all affect the average guy much worse than the alchohol al capone did or even the modern cocaine racket. Its just that one kind of organized crime is much more viscous than the other .

Hang the bastard!

79

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
…

I don’t see GB, Germnany, Japan, or Spain on those lists. It is us, the “Islamo-fascists”, and unnamed other third world countries. Maybe it is a question of civilization?[/quote]

Didn’t Germany execute 10 million only 50 years ago?

How many did Japan murder?

Don’t try to paint them as more civilized.

80

[quote]vroom wrote:
And the rest of you lefty Lucy’s, waste your time and effort on someone worth a pinch of shit.

I think most folks around here think that if he’s guilty he should fry… though the discussion did actually widen for a while.

Heaven forbid![/quote]

It widened about the merits of the death penalty.

That’s a fair discussion.

The thread was about a A particular person, who in this case, is guilty wo/doubt. Even he has never claimed diferent, nor does he now. He is claiming rehabilitation.

He gave up his shot at rehabilitation when he killed innocent woman and children.

Heaven forbid you stay on topic.