The Fate of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
However, I am against the death penalty. I don’t know that executing men truly makes a difference…maybe if it was my family that had been killed I would feel different.
[/quote]

Ah! But that was my point in bringing that up. I agree with you… we have to be objective about this. Here we have one currently alive person weighed against the murder he committed to snuff out four innocent dead people. It is sometimes a failing of ours to lose objectivity and think “well, they’re dead, so there’s nothing we can do about it to fix the problem…” But we can’t let the fact that someone might be currently dead change how they used to be alive, and why they aren’t anymore.

This is where the “what if it was your mom” thing comes into play. If it was your mom, you sure as hell wouldn’t forget the way she used to be alive and the value that her life had to herself and others, would you? You’re gonna remember the value of the victim.

The reason we don’t put victim friends and family on the stand is because of the sense of entitlement to revenge might cloud the judgment of a jurist, and prevent them from doing a good job of taking the facts into account, and making a good judgement about the guilt or innocence of a defendant. In their zeal to punish somebody, they might end up wrongfully convicting an innocent man.

Loth, it is obvious you believe in the vengeance aspect of justice. Of course that is fine, but that is your belief. People that aren’t generally so gung ho about killing criminals see it differently.

Society balances out individual needs and takes actions that are different than any particular individual might want – especially with respect to vengeance.

Neither is “wrong”.

Doogie, wtf, did I suggest he didn’t kill anybody?

It’s over, let go of the hatred, the guy is dead already and I’m not arguing that he shouldn’t have been killed.

Well, the point of my post was about morons trying to say that life in prison is easier than being killed, but now that the second part is more debated, let’s clear some stuff up.

My point is, if Schwarzenegger (sp) didn’t use his power to grant clemency in this situation, what is the point of having it in the first place? I’m not arguing for or against the death penalty, that’s a different issue. I’m arguing that there really is no point in clemency if it’s not going to be used in situations like this. The man helped people. Whether or not his books themselves have saved any kids, he is a national figure that many people know, and whose STORY influences people. Excuse the math, I agree I went overboard, but with or without statistics, to say that Tookie’s story and/or books (not just his children’s books, he wrote others people) haven’t saved a decent amount of people from joining gangs/making bad decisions is plain dumb.

zap branigan, 330 books? You say he had 330 books? And MY math is wrong? Your argument is that because his supporters are “fruit-cakes,” no one else should think about supporting him. Way to go, Plato.

sasquatch, I cannot say. Maybe all 15,000 were sent in as a last-minute plea for clemency. Maybe they were all bullshit (but that’s highly improbable). Sample letters are here: http://www.tookie.com/ No, it’s not a professional site, many could be completely faked, but I tend to have more faith in people. As far as facts go, his apology (http://www.tookie.com/apology.html) is for real, and the fact that his story touched many people is real. You can’t argue against that. Maybe he didn’t stop thousands of people from leading lives of crime, but saving just one could mean saving four innocent lives (not saying that every gang member kills four people, but the point gets across).

lothario, I never said that any lives are more important than others. And like fightingirish said, this is why family members aren’t put on trials, because they are fueled by normal feelings, even if they are vengeance and hatred.

Let me close by saying one more time, I’m not arguing for or against the death penalty here, although I certainly am 100% against it. I’m saying, what’s the point of clemency, if it wasn’t used in this case? And of course, that no one has the right to say whether life in prison is better than death, but that was overlooked.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:

zap branigan, 330 books? You say he had 330 books? And MY math is wrong? Your argument is that because his supporters are “fruit-cakes,” no one else should think about supporting him. Way to go, Plato.
…[/quote]

He sold a total of 330 books. Since he saved 7,500 lives those books sure got passed around.

Why don’t you hit that link and check out the typical Tookie supporter. See if you fit in with that crowd.

Yes, your math is wrong. He was an evil man and his phony rehabilitation scheme was transparent.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
… I’m saying, what’s the point of clemency, if it wasn’t used in this case? And of course, that no one has the right to say whether life in prison is better than death, but that was overlooked.[/quote]

The point is it is reserved for those murderers that admit their crime, show remorse and change their lives in a meaningful manner.

By your line of reasoning clemency should be granted to everyone.

Hell, why doesn’t Arnold just pardon every criminal in California and let them out of jail.

I mean, what is the point of having pardons if they are not used for people that do not deserve it?

Show me

a) where it says that all of his books sold only 330 copies (and properly cited)

b) where I imply that everyone should be granted clemency

c) where Tookie has not shown remorse and change

[quote]vroom wrote:
Loth, it is obvious you believe in the vengeance aspect of justice. Of course that is fine, but that is your belief.[/quote]

Ugh. All I’m saying is that human life has value. To forget that the victims mattered in our rush to not execute a very very proven murderer is to devalue the innocent.

As long as we aren’t executinig innocent men and women, death penalty = good. As long as the punishment fits the crime, death penalty = good.

This is just a common sense part of living in a polite society… there must be an on-purpose dire and deadly consequence to an on-purpose dire and deadly action.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
Show me

a) where it says that all of his books sold only 330 copies (and properly cited)
[/quote]

Read or watch the news. This has been cited many, many times.

Your question asked why should we even have clemency if we don’t use it.

Tookie never admitted to his crime. He never showed remorse or sorrow for the victims or their families.

He never cooperated with police to break up the Crips.

He allegedly dedicated a childrens book to a convict that murdred a prison guard.

You show me how he did change beyond mellowing with age.

I understand why people are anti-death penalty. I am not sure where I stand on this issue myself.

I do not understand how anyone can praise a murderous scumbag like Tookie.
Of course after looking at the people that protested in support of Tookie, it is clear they are irrational.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Loth, it is obvious you believe in the vengeance aspect of justice. Of course that is fine, but that is your belief. People that aren’t generally so gung ho about killing criminals see it differently.

Society balances out individual needs and takes actions that are different than any particular individual might want – especially with respect to vengeance.

Neither is “wrong”.
[/quote]

Not vengeance. Retribution. The difference between the two, if properly understood, is substantial.

http://www.philosophypathways.com/essays/hopkins2.html

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
vroom wrote:
Loth, it is obvious you believe in the vengeance aspect of justice. Of course that is fine, but that is your belief.

Ugh. All I’m saying is that human life has value. To forget that the victims mattered in our rush to not execute a very very proven murderer is to devalue the innocent.

As long as we aren’t executinig innocent men and women, death penalty = good. As long as the punishment fits the crime, death penalty = good.

This is just a common sense part of living in a polite society… there must be an on-purpose dire and deadly consequence to an on-purpose dire and deadly action.[/quote]

Good points all. But let’s remember that some people are just too friggin dangerous to allow back on the streets. So it then becomes a matter of not just retribution, but further protection of society from a killer.

Granted we could have given him life in prison, but sometimes that sends the wrong message to all the other scum bag gang leaders and members out there who might feel that they can steal, sell drugs and murder with impunity.

Let this be a lesson to those who think wearing colors and pissing in the face of society is a good idea.

I don’t give a shit if you grew up in poverty, and you never knew your daddy. You have no right to screw with innocent people!

I’m sick of gangs and the violence that it brings to the streets. It’s time to crack down on everyone of them!

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

Ugh. All I’m saying is that human life has value. To forget that the victims mattered in our rush to not execute a very very proven murderer is to devalue the innocent.

As long as we aren’t executinig innocent men and women, death penalty = good. As long as the punishment fits the crime, death penalty = good.

This is just a common sense part of living in a polite society… there must be an on-purpose dire and deadly consequence to an on-purpose dire and deadly action.[/quote]

This makes me sick. Killing and vengeance = a polite society? What the HELL? Furthermore, you state that human life has value, so therefore we should execute people? How does not killing a murderer devalue the innocents lives? How does killing a murdere NOT devalue HIS life, if you say that human life has value?

zap, YOU show me where it says that. I won’t believe it, and I’m not saying that I never will, but at the moment, I won’t believe it until I see some reliable sources. Frankly, I don’t care enough to go look for them, but if you can give me some then I’ll believe you.

“Your question asked why should we even have clemency if we don’t use it.”

Yes, that is true, but this doesn’t mean that we should grant EVERYONE clemency. You’re reading too much into my comment and expanding on its meaning for your own benefit. What is the point of clemency, if we didn’t use it in this case? Of almost all convicted criminals, this was one where clemency seemed more than appropriate.

"Tookie never admitted to his crime. He never showed remorse or sorrow for the victims or their families. "

Not admitting to the crime has nothing to do with regret or sorrow…

He didn’t show remorse or sorrow? HE WROTE A FUCKING LETTER ADDRESSED TO THEM EXPRESSING HIS SORROW.

"He never cooperated with police to break up the Crips. "

He denounced gangs in all of his writings… I think that’s cooparation.

"He allegedly dedicated a childrens book to a convict that murdred a prison guard. "

‘Allegedly’ is the key word. ‘Allegedly’ a fact does not make.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:

"Tookie never admitted to his crime. He never showed remorse or sorrow for the victims or their families. "

Not admitting to the crime has nothing to do with regret or sorrow…

He didn’t show remorse or sorrow? HE WROTE A FUCKING LETTER ADDRESSED TO THEM EXPRESSING HIS SORROW.
[/quote]

Where is this letter? I never heard of it. The main reason Arnold did not grant clemecy is he showed no remorse.
Perhaps Tookies lawyer decided not to show Arnold the letter? Or perhaps if a letter exists he does not admit the crime and express remorse. These are two of the most important aspects of being granted clememcy. Tookie did neither.

Cooperation is not having someone right a kiddie book for you saying “gangs are bad m’kay”.

Cooperation is telling the cops names and crimes so they can break up the gang.

[quote]
"He allegedly dedicated a childrens book to a convict that murdred a prison guard. "

‘Allegedly’ is the key word. ‘Allegedly’ a fact does not make. [/quote]

I have read this a number of places on the internet including this website, but I am not positive of this, hence my use of the word alleged. At least you understand this.

Tookie was a low life piece of shit. I cannot fathom how you can possibly support this murderous scumbag.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
This makes me sick. Killing and vengeance = a polite society? What the HELL? Furthermore, you state that human life has value, so therefore we should execute people? How does not killing a murderer devalue the innocents lives? How does killing a murdere NOT devalue HIS life, if you say that human life has value?[/quote]

Here, let me help you. This following quote is from the link that BB provided a few posts back (thanks BB):

“We believe that murderers must pay for their crimes with their lives, and we also think that we may legitimately exact that payment, because we are also their victims, and because we live in the world they have violated. By punishing them we demonstrate that the laws form a bond between the citizens of the commonwealth and that we, as citizens, are not simply isolated individuals, each pursuing his own selfish interests — living, one with another, merely on the basis of some contract of permissive tolerance. We must come to the realisation that it is morally right to be angry with criminals and to express that anger publicly and officially, which may demand that the worst of them must suffer the ultimate penalty.”

Please pay attention to the bold text I indicated above. The act of intentional murder is the very act of cutting through that fabric between all of us that binds us together as a society. it is a statement that says “I do not value the lives of others, and I am an enemy of what makes society function. I am willing to act in a way which supports my ideals of selfishness.”

I have the idea that maybe you are a compassionate man. Well, so am I. Be mindful of where you place that compassion! Don’t forget the victims, those are your fellow and just citizens… the murderer is the enemy of what you stand for. A truly very compassionate person will find no qualms at all in executing a murderer because he will not forget the value of the victims. I would treat a murderer the same as I would a poisonous snake hissing at my daughter.

Am I supposed to feel sorry for the snake? You tell me.

Boston, Loth,

All I’m saying is that society gets to choose whether or not it is in favor of the death penalty. I’ve said neither is “wrong”, yet still I get caught in this bullshit.

Of course people that have been wronged personally will be very likely to desire the death of the convicted.

However, I am suprised at the vehemence coming from people who have nothing to do with the situation at all. It seems some people around here are just drooling over the chance to execute criminals, like it actually suddenly makes the word a better place.

This might be a surprise, but the killing of Tookie didn’t somehow discourage all criminals or dismantle the gangs.

[quote]vroom wrote:

However, I am suprised at the vehemence coming from people who have nothing to do with the situation at all. It seems some people around here are just drooling over the chance to execute criminals, like it actually suddenly makes the word a better place.

This might be a surprise, but the killing of Tookie didn’t somehow discourage all criminals or dismantle the gangs.[/quote]

vroom, you said it perfectly.

lothario, I see where you’re coming from, but I simply can’t agree. The death penalty is revenge. It’s an eye for an eye. ANd I like to stick by Gandhi: “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.” It’s just the way I feel, I guess it’s something that can’t be felt by other who feel differently no matter how much I try to convince them otherwise.

Zap, you’re right, there is no formal apology to the victims, I thought I had one, but it’s simply a broader apology: http://www.tookie.com/apology.html .

But Tookie has always claimed his innocence, and frankly, an apology would be a weak, pitiful, and cowardly thing to write. He would in fact be admitting to a crime he says he didn’t comit (whether or not it’s true, I haven’t seen/heard the case or its summary and unless you have either don’t comment on it) just to save his life.

But I would like to point out that although a formal apology was never realized, is redemption not enough? For clemency purposes, is a feeling of regret, and a positive influence on society not enough?

I’ll just end this post with this. You think that showing Tookie’s supporters as “weirdos” will somehow deter me from supporting him? OK, let’s say that logic should work. Check out the list of countries that still have the death penalty. Let me put boldface around the ones that should jump out.

* Afghanistan

  • Antigua and Barbuda
  • Bahamas
  • Bahrain
    * Bangladesh
  • Barbados
  • Belarus
  • Belize
  • Botswana
  • Burundi
  • Cameroon
  • Chad
    * China (People’s Republic)
  • Comoros
  • Congo (Democratic Republic)
  • Cuba
  • Dominica
  • Egypt
  • Equatorial Guinea
  • Eritrea
  • Ethiopia
  • Gabon
  • Ghana
  • Guatemala
  • Guinea
  • Guyana
  • India
  • Indonesia
    * Iran
    * Iraq
  • Jamaica
    * Japan
  • Jordan
  • Kazakhstan
    * Korea, North
    * Korea, South
    * Kuwait
  • Kyrgyzstan
  • Laos
  • Lebanon
  • Lesotho
  • Liberia
  • Libya
  • Malawi
  • Malaysia
  • Mongolia
  • Nigeria
  • Oman
    * Pakistan
    * Palestinian Authority
  • Philippines
  • Qatar
  • Rwanda
  • St. Kitts and Nevis
  • St. Lucia
  • St. Vincent and the Grenadines
    * Saudi Arabia
  • Sierra Leone
  • Singapore
  • Somalia
  • Sudan
  • Swaziland
  • Syria
  • Taiwan
  • Tajikistan
  • Tanzania
  • Thailand
  • Trinidad and Tobago
  • Uganda
    * United Arab Emirates
  • United States
  • Uzbekistan
  • Vietnam
  • Yemen
  • Zambia
  • Zimbabwe

Besides Japan, we are the only industrial democracy in the world that still allows the death penalty. Given Japan’s history, this isn’t surprising.

Look at the kooks you’re hanging with.

Revenge is natural and healthy. I say fry his ass.

Ernest van den Haag, who recently passed away, was among the most widely cited persons who argued that the death penalty was moral and just (assuming of course it was applied to a guilty person).

I’m going to post this whole article, as it speaks directly to a lot of the points that have been made above (BTW, note that he assumes, arguendo, that certain critiques of the death penalty are true for the purpose of his moral argument, such as the racial disparity in sentencing claim (though he critiques it afterward)).

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/haagarticle.html

THE ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT: A DEFENSE

Ernest van den Haag

John M. Olin Professor of Jurisprudence and Public Policy, Fordham University.

In an average year about 20,000 homicides occur in the United States. Fewer than 300 convicted murderers are sentenced to death. But because no more than thirty murderers have been executed in any recent year, most convicts sentenced to death are likely to die of old age (1). Nonetheless, the death penalty looms large in discussions: it raises important moral questions independent of the number of executions (2).

The death penalty is our harshest punishment (3). It is irrevocable: it ends the existence of those punished, instead of temporarily imprisoning them. Further, although not intended to cause physical pain, execution is the only corporal punishment still applied to adults (4). These singular characteristics contribute to the perennial, impassioned controversy about capital punishment.

I. DISTRIBUTION

Consideration of the justice, morality, or usefulness, of capital punishment is often conflated with objections to its alleged discriminatory or capricious distribution among the guilty. Wrongly so. If capital punishment is immoral in se, no distribution cannot affect the quality of what is distributed, be it punishments or rewards. Discriminatory or capricious distribution thus could not justify abolition of the death penalty. Further, maldistribution inheres no more in capital punishment than in any other punishment.

Maldistribution between the guilty and the innocent is, by definition, unjust. But the injustice does not lie in the nature of the punishment. Because of the finality of the death penalty, the most grievous maldistribution occurs when it is imposed upon the innocent. However, the frequent allegations of discrimination and capriciousness refer to maldistribution among the guilty and not to the punishment of the innocent (5).

Maldistribution of any punishment among those who deserves it is irrelevant to its justice or morality. Even if poor or black convicts guilty of capital offenses suffer capital punishment, and other convicts equally guilty of the same crimes do not, a more equal distribution, however desirable, would merely be more equal. It would not be more just to the convicts under sentence of death.

Punishments are imposed on person, not on racial or economic groups. Guilt is personal. The only relevant question is: does the person to be executed deserve the punishment? Whether or not others who deserved the same punishment, whatever their economic or racial group, have avoided execution is irrelevant. If they have, the guilt if the executed convicts would not be diminished, nor would their punishment be less deserved. To put the issue starkly, if the death penalty were imposed on guilty blacks, but not on guilty whites, or, if it were imposed by a lottery among the guilty, this irrationally discriminatory or capricious distribution would neither make the penalty unjust, nor cause anyone to be unjustly punished, despite the undue impunity bestowed on others (6).

Equality, in short, seems morally less important than justice. And justice is independent of distributional inequalities. The ideal of equal justice demands that justice be equally distributed, not that it be replace by equality. Justice requires that as many of the guilty as possible be punished, regardless of whether others have avoided punishment. To let these others escape the deserved punishment does not do justice to them, or to society. But it is not unjust to those who could not escape.

These moral considerations are not meant to deny that irrational discrimination, or capriciousness, would be inconsistent with constitutional requirements. But I am satisfied that the Supreme Court has in fact provided for adherence to the constitutional requirement of equality as much as is possible. Some inequality is indeed unavoidable as a practical matter in any system (7). But, ultra posse nemo obligatur. (Nobody is bound beyond ability)(8).

Recent data reveal little direct racial discrimination in the sentencing of those arrested and convicted of murder. (9) The abrogation of the death penalty for rape has eliminated a major source of racial discrimination. Concededly, some discrimination based on the race of murder victims may exist; yet, this discrimination affects criminal murder victimizers in an unexpected way. Murderers of whites are thought more likely to be executed than murderers of blacks. Black victims, then, are less fully vindicated than white ones. However, because most black murderers kill blacks, black murderers are spared the death penalty more often than are white murderers. They fare better than most white murderers (10). The motivation behind unequal distribution of the death penalty may well have been to discriminate against blacks, but the result has favored them. Maldistribution is thus a straw man for empirical as well as analytical reasons.

II. MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE

In a recent survey Professors Hugo Adam Bedau and Michael Radelet found that 7000 persons were executed in the United States between 1900 and 1985 and that 35 were innocent of capital crimes (11). Among the innocents they list Sacco and Vanzetti as well as Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. Although their data may be questionable, I do not doubt that, over a long enough period, miscarriages of justice will occur even in capital cases.

Despite precautions, nearly all human activities, such as trucking, lighting, or construction, cost the lives of some innocent bystanders. We do not give up these activities, because the advantages, moral or material, outweigh the unintended losses (12). Analogously, for those who think the death penalty just, miscarriages of justice are offset by the moral benefits and the usefulness of doing justice. For those who think death penalty unjust even when it does not miscarry, miscarriages can hardly be decisive.

III. DETERRENCE

Despite much recent work, there has been no conclusive statistical demonstration that the death penalty is a better deterrent than are alternative punishments (13). However, deterrence is less than decisive for either side. Most abolitionists acknowledge that they would continue to favor abolition even if the death penalty were shown to deter more murders than alternatives could deter (14). Abolitionists appear to value the life of a convicted murderer or, at least, his non-execution, more highly than they value the lives of the innocent victims who might be spared by deterring prospective murderers.

Deterrence is not altogether decisive for me either. I would favor retention of the death penalty as retribution even if it were shown that the threat of execution could not deter prospective murderers not already deterred by the threat of imprisonment (15). Still, I believe the death penalty, because of its finality, is more feared than imprisonment, and deters some prospective murderers not deterred by the thought of imprisonment. Sparing the lives of even a few prospective victims by deterring their murderers is more important than preserving the lives of convicted murderers because o the possibility, or even the probability, tht executing them would not deter others. Whereas the live of the victims who might be saved are valuable, that of the murderer has only negative value, because of his crime. Surely the criminal law is meant to protect the lives of potential victims in preference to those of actual murderers.

Murder rates are determined by many factors; neither the severity nor the probability of the threatened sanction is always decisive. However, for the long run, I share the view of Sir James Fitzjames Stephen: “Some men, probably, abstain from murder because they fear that if they committed murder they would be hanged. Hundreds of thousands abstain from it because they regard it with horror. One great reason why they regard it with horror is that murderers are hanged (16)” Penal sanctions are useful in the long run for the formation of the internal restraints so necessary to control crime. The severity and finality of the death penalty is appropriate to the seriousness and the finality of murder (17).

IV. INCIDENTAL ISSUES: COST, RELATIVE

SUFFERING, BRUTALIZATION

Many nondecisive issues are associated with capital punishment. Some believe that the monetary cost of appealing a capital sentence is excessive (18). Yet most comparisons of the cost of life imprisonment with the cost of life imprisonment with the cost of execution, apart from their dubious relevance, are flawed at least by the implied assumption that life prisoners will generate no judicial costs during their imprisonment. At any rate, the actual monetary costs are trumped by the importance of doing justice.

Others insist that a person sentenced to death suffers more than his victim suffered, and that this (excess) suffering is undue according to the lex talionis (rule of retaliation) (19). We cannot know whether the murderer on death row suffers more than his victim suffered; however, unlike the murderer, the victim deserved none of the suffering inflicted. Further, the limitations of the lex talionis were meant to restrain private vengeance, not the social retribution that has taken its place. Punishment-- regardless of the motivation-- is not intended to revenge, offset, or compensate for the victim’s suffering, or to measured by it. Punishment is to vindicate the law and the social order undermined by the crime. This is why a kidnapper’s penal confinement is not limited to the period for which he imprisoned his victim; nor is a burglar’s confinement meant merely to offset the suffering or the harm he caused his victim; nor is it meant only to offset the advantage he gained (20).

Another argument heard at least since Beccaria (21) is that, by killing a murderer, we encourage, endorse, or legitimize unlawful killing Yet, although all punishments are meant to be unpleasant, it is seldom argued that they legitimize the unlawful imposition of identical unpleasantness. Imprisonment is not thought to legitimize kidnapping; neither are fines thought to legitimize robbery. The difference between murder and execution, or between kidnapping and imprisonment, is that the first is unlawful and undeserved, the second a lawful and deserved punishment for an unlawful act. The physical similarities of the punishment to the crime are irrelevant. The relevant difference is not physical, but social (22).

V. JUSTICE, EXCESS, DEGRADATION

We threaten punishments in order to deter crime. We impose them not only to make the threats credible but also as retribution (justice) for the crimes that were not deterred. Threats and punishments are necessary to deter and deterrence is a sufficient practical justification for them. Retribution is an independent moral justification (23). Although penalties can be unwise, repulsive, or inappropriate, and those punished can be pitiable, in a sense the infliction of legal punishment on a guilty person cannot be unjust. By committing the crime, the criminal volunteered to assume the risk of receiving a legal punishment that he could have avoided by not committing the crime. The punishment he suffers is the punishment he voluntarily risked suffering and, therefore, it is no more unjust to him than any other event for which one knowingly volunteer to assume the risk. Thus, the death penalty cannot be unjust to the guilty criminal (24).

There remain, however, two moral objections. The penalty may be regarded as always excessive as retribution and always morally degrading. To regard the death penalty as always excessive, one must believe that no crime-- no matter how heinous-- could possibly justify capital punishment. Such a belief can be neither corroborated nor refuted; it is an article of faith.

Alternatively, or concurrently, one may believe that everybody, the murderer no less than the victim, has an imprescriptible (natural?) right to life. The law therefore should not deprive anyone of life. I share Jeremy Bentham’s view that any such “natural and imprescriptible rights” are “nonsense upon stilts.” (25)

Justice Brennan has insisted that the death penalty is “uncivilized,” “inhuman,” inconsistent with “human dignity” and with “the sanctity of life,” (26) that it “treats members of the human race as nonhumans, as objects to be toyed with and discarded,” (27) that it is “uniquely degrading to human dignity”(28) and “by its very nature, [involves] a denial of the executed person’s humanity.” (29) Justice Brennan does not say why he thinks execution “uncivilized.” Hitherto most civilizations have had the death penalty, although it has been discarded in Western Europe, where it is currently unfashionable probably because of its abuse by totalitarian regimes.

By “degrading,” Justice Brennan seems to mean that execution degrades the executed convicts. Yet philosophers, such as Immanuel Kant and G.F.W. Hegel, have insisted that, when deserved, execution, far from degrading the executed convict, affirms his humanity by affirming his rationality and his responsibility for his actions. They thought that execution, when deserved, is required for the sake of the convict’s dignity. (Does not life imprisonment violate human dignity more than execution, by keeping alive a prisoner deprived of all autonomy?)(30).

Common sense indicates that it cannot be death-- our common fate-- that is inhuman. Therefore, Justice Brennan must mean that death degrades when it comes not as a natural or accidental event, but as a deliberate social imposition. The murderer learns through his punishment that his fellow men have found him unworthy of living; that because he has murdered, he is being expelled from the community of the living. This degradation is self-inflicted. By murdering, the murderer has so dehumanized himself that he cannot remain among the living. The social recognition of his self-degradation is the punitive essence of execution. To believe, as Justice Brennan appears to, that the degradation is inflicted by the execution reverses the direction of casuality.

Execution of those who have committed heinous murders may deter only one murder per year. If it does, it seems quite warranted. Its is also the only fitting retribution for murder I can think of.


NOTES

1 Death row as a semipermanent residence is cruel, because convicts are denied the normal amenities of prison life. Thus, unless death row residents are integrated into the prison population, the continuing accumulation of convicts on death row should lead us to accelerate either the rate of executions or the rate of commutations. I find little objection to integration.

2 The debate about the insanity defense is important for analogous reasons.

3 Some writers, for example, Cesare Bonesana, Marchese di Beccaria, have thought that life imprisonment is more severe. See C. Beccaria, Dei Delitti e Delle Pene 62-70 (1764). More recently, Jacques Barzun, has expressed this view. See Barzun, In Favor of Capital Punishment, in The Death Penalty in America 154 (H. Bedau ed. 1964). However, the overwhelming majority of both abolitionists and of convicts under death sentence prefer life imprisonment to execution.

4 For a discussion of the sources of opposition to corporal punishment, see E. van den Haag, Punishing Criminals 196-206 (1975).

5 See infra pp. 1664-65.

6 Justice Douglas, concurring in Furman v. Georgia, 408 U.S. 238 (1972), wrote that “a law which … reaches that [discriminatory] result in practice has no more sanctity that a law which in terms provides the same.” Id. at 256 (Douglas, J., concurring). Indeed, a law legislating this result “in terms” would be inconsistent with the “equal protection of the laws” provided by result could be changed by changing the distributional practice. Thus, Justice Douglas notwithstanding, a discriminatory result does not make the death penalty unconstitutional, unless the penalty ineluctable must produce that result to an unconstitutional degree.

7 The equal of equality, unlike the ideal retributive justice (which can be approximated separately in each instance), is clearly unattainable unless all guilty persons are apprehended, and thereafter tried, convicted and sentenced by the same court, at the same time. Unequal justice is the best we can do; it is still better than the injustice, equal or unequal, which occurs if, for the sake of equality, we deliberately allow some who could be punished to escape.

8 Equality, even without justice, may remain a strong psychological, and therefore political, demand. Yet Charles Black, by proving the inevitability of “caprice” (inequality), undermines his own constitutional argument, because it seems unlikely that the Constitution’s fifth and fourteenth amendments were meant to authorize the death penalty only under unattainable conditions. See C. Black, Capital Punishment: The Inevitability of Caprice and Mistake (1974).

9 See Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dep’t of Justice, Bulletin No. NCJ-98,399, Capital Punishment, 1984, at 9 (1985); Johnson The Executioner’s Bias Nat’l Rev., Nov. 15, 1985, at 44.

10 It barely need be said the any discrimination against (for example, black murderers of whites) must also be discrimination for (for example, black murderers of black).

11 Bedau & Radelet, Miscarriages of Justice in Potentially Capital Cases (1st draft, Oct. 1985) (on file at Harvard Law School Library).

12 An excessive number of trucking accidents or of miscarriages of justice could offset the benefits gained by trucking or the practice of doing justice. We are, however, far from this situation.

13 For a sample of conflicting views on the subject, see Baldus & Cole, A Comparison of the Work of Thorsten Sellin and Isaac Ehrlich on the Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment, 85 Yale L.J. 170 (1975); Bowers & Pierce, Deterrence or Brutalization: What Is the Effect of Executions? 26 Crime & Delinq. 453 (1980); Bowers & Pierce The Illusion of Deterrence in Isaac Ehrlich’s Research on Capital Punishment , 85 Yale L.J. 187 (1975); Ehrlich, Fear of Deterrence: A Critical Evaluation of the “Report of the Panel on Research on Deterrent and Incapacitate Effects”, 6 J Legal stud. 293 (1977); Ehrlich, The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: A Question of Life and Death, 65 Am. Econ. Rev. 397, 415-16 (1975); Ehrlich & Gibbons, On the Measurement of the Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment and the Theory of Deterrence, 6 J. Legal Stud. 35 (1977).

14 For most abolitionists, the discrimination argument, see supra pp. 1662-64, is similarly nondecisive: they would favor abolition even if there could be no racial discrimination.

15 If executions were shown to increase the murder rate in the long run, I would favor abolition. Sparing the innocent victims who would be spared, ex hypothesi, by the nonexecution of murderess would be more important to me that the execution, however just, of murderers. But although there is a lively discussion of the subject, not serious evidence exists to support the hypothesis that executions produce a higher murder rate. Cf. Phllips, the deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: New Evidence on an Old Controversy, 86 Am. J. Soc. 139 (1980) (arguing that murder rates drop immediately after executions of criminals).

16 H. Gross, A Theory of Criminal Justice 489 (1979) (attributing this passage to Sir James Fitzjames Stephen).

17 Weems v. United States, 217 U.S. 349 (1910) suggest that penalties be proportionate to the seriousness of the crime - a common theme in criminal law. Murder, therefore, demands more that life imprisonment. In modern times, our sensibility requires that the range of punishments be narrower than the range of crime - but not so narrow as to exclude the death penalty.

18 Cf. Kaplan Administering Capital Punishment, 36 U. Fla. L. Rev. 177,178, 190-91 (1984) (noting the high cost of appealing a capital sentence).

19 For an example of this view, See A. Camus, Reflections on the Guillotine 24-30 (1959). On the limitations allegedly imposed by the lex talionis, see Reiman Justice, Civilization and the Death Penalty: Answering van den Haag, 14 Phil. & Pub. Aff. 115, 119-34 (1985).

20 Thus restitution (a civil liability) cannot satisfy the punitive purpose of penal sanctions, whether the purpose be retributive or deterrent.

21 See supra note 3.

22 Some abolitionist challenge: if the death penalty is just and severs as a deterrent, why not televise executions? The answer is simple. The death even of a murderer, however will-deserved, should not serve as public entertainment. It so served in earlier centuries. But in this respect our sensibility has changed for the better, I believe. Further, television unavoidable would trivialize executions, wedged in, as they would be, between game shows, situation comedies and the like. Finally, because televised executions would focus on the physical aspects of the punishment, rather than the nature of the crime and the suffering of the victim, a televised execution would be present the murdered as the victim of the state. Far from communicating the moral significance of the execution, television would shift that focus to the pitiable fear of the murderer. We no longer place in cases those sentenced to imprisonment to expose them to public view. Why should we so expose those sentenced to execution?

23 See van den Haag, Punishment as a Device for Controlling the Crime Rate, 33 Rutgers L, Rev. 706, 719 (1981) (explaining why the desire for retribution, although independent, would have to be satisfied even if deterrence were the only purpose of punishment.)

24 An explicit threat of punitive action is necessary to the justification of any legal punishment : nulla poena sine lege (no punishment without [preexisting] law). To be sufficiently justified, the threat must in turn have a rational and legitimate purpose. “Your money or your life” does not qualify; nor does the threat of an unjust law; nor, finally, does a threat that is altogether disproportionate to the importance of its purpose. In short, preannouncement legitimizes the threatened punishment only if the threat is warranted. But this leaves a very wide range of justified threats. Furthermore, the punished person is aware of the penalty for his actions and thus volunteers to take the risk even of an unjust punishment. His victim, however, actions and thus volunteer to risk anything. The questions whether any self-inflicted injury - such as legal punishment - ever can be unjust to a person who knowingly risked it is a matter that requires more analysis than possible here.

25 2 The Works of Jeremy Bentham 105 (J. Bowring ed. 1973). However, I would be more polite about prescriptible natural rights, which Bentham described as “simple nonsense.” Id. (It does not matter whether natural rights are called “moral” or “human” rights as they currently are by most writers.)

26 The Death Penalty in America 256-63 (H. Bedau ed., 3d ed. 1982) (quoting Furman v. Georgia, 408 U.S. 238, 286, 305 (1972) (Brennan, J., concurring).

27 Id. at 272-73; see also Gregg v. Georgia, 428 U.S. 153 230 (1976) (1976) (Brennan, J., dissenting).

28 Furman v. Georgia, 408 U.S. 238, 291 (1972) (Brennan, J., concurring).

29 Id. at 290.

30 See Barzun, supra note 3, passim.

Dan, that list was almost all the world! The shorter list would’ve been of who does NOT have the death penalty.

[quote]HardcoreHorn wrote:
Dan, that list was almost all the world! The shorter list would’ve been of who does NOT have the death penalty.[/quote]

It’s less than 1/2. By most accounts, there are 193 countries in the world. Counting those many islands and territories that are colonies or not or who the fuck knows, it’s more like 260. I’ll go with 193 though.

THe bigger picture is that we are the only industrial democracy in the world that has the death penalty. We are the only developped nation who executes people.

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
THe bigger picture is that we are the only industrial democracy in the world that has the death penalty. We are the only developped nation who executes people.[/quote]

So it isn’t compassion for the murderer that’s your problem with the death penalty, it’s because you want to be “cool” like France? :slight_smile:

J/K, but seriously, this is not a good reason to deny anything. It’s almost like you think we are barbarians or something for carrying out justice. I am proud of us for having the courage to step up to the enemies of society and make it quite plain that they do not deserve to live in our eyes if their innocent victims don’t deserve to live in their eyes.

If you want to call me bloodthirsty, then fine. It’s not true… but who cares.