The Face of Poverty in America

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I feel it is our Government�??s job to protect the workers of America

Not in the constitution and a terrible idea. They’ve tried and caused more damage than good.

just as it the Governments job to protect American Businesses from unfair competitors.
[/quote}
Not in the constitution and a terrible idea. Has caused much more damage than good.

That is why we have trade agreements with different counties. That is why we would sanction China for helping a certain industry that America allows to operate with no help.
These have been extremly harmfull to our overall quality of life.

The gov’t has no business telling it’s citizens what they buy and who they can buy it from. Like wise, it has no business telling it’s citizens what they can sell thier labor for.

You may have point in time of war with relation to countries we are at war with. Or sanctions for behavior that may be harmfull for the US.

The other question you have to ask yourself is at what cost?

I appreciate the Libertarian point of view, I have voted that way for the last 3 presidential elections. The problem is every body is electing the likes of George Bush, and John McCain, that is like most of the posters on this thread. They despise the poor, and want to enrich the rich.

I would even think that our Immigration problem would be covered by the constitution; it is an invasion of sorts. That would be in the scope of the constitution

Now let´s imagine you could stop immigration.

The real problem is not that people want to come to America but that money that seeks cheap labor meets labor that seeks money that can employ it.

If you stop immigration, the labor will not come to the money, but the money will still go to the labor, which is more convenient anyway.

So, now what?

Will you outlaw investing abroad for American companies?

Business in America has outsourced everything that is profitable to do. There are services that would be impossible to out source that is why flooding the labor market with cheap labor appeals to Corporate America.

True, but think about the implications.

The jobs those Mexicans do are only profitable at their wages-

You think those wages are too low.

What would happen if those Mexicans disappeared?

Would the farmers pay higher wages, accept a loss with every person they hire, or would they just close down?

If they cannot outsource, they can still go broke because they cannot compete with cheap oranges from Guatemala.

Meaning, if the Mexicans won´t luck it for 4$ an hour, nobody will at 5$ an hour.

It would simply mean that it would be more profitable to do the same business abroad.

Just because it is not profitable NOW to outsource something does not mean that a immigration stop could not make it so.

The problem is they are not just picking oranges; they are working construction, a business I earn my living at. Being a Contactor I have to maintain Insurance I have to Pay Federal Tax, State Tax I have to pay Sales Tax.

They do not have to pay any of them, what kind of advantage do they have? If they were smart they would not cut my throat, but they do. One in ten customers will pay more to have a reputable contractor do the work.

That is just my industry, The reason place like Circle K and Seven Eleven and the likes can get away paying $8-$9 per hr is the labor market has so many unskilled Immigrants they are fighting over the jobs .

If we were minus the immigrants they would have to pay $11-$12 pr hour would not cut into their profit all that much and the employee could afford to live in the community they work in.

I am not anti Immigration; I am just against an unfair labor market

[/quote]

Well, the more rules and regulations and taxes there are the more expensive it gets to obey the law- An hour of an Austrian plumber cost you 60-80 EUR. That is 90-120$.

Of course people will start to break the law, and yes that effect really is worst when building contractors do not have enough to do and the customers have to look for their moneys worth.

What can I say, the cost of a welfare state.

Of course it is easier for politicians to point at immigrants.

They are not the problem though.

102

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I feel it is our Government�??s job to protect the workers of America

Not in the constitution and a terrible idea. They’ve tried and caused more damage than good.

just as it the Governments job to protect American Businesses from unfair competitors.
[/quote}
Not in the constitution and a terrible idea. Has caused much more damage than good.

That is why we have trade agreements with different counties. That is why we would sanction China for helping a certain industry that America allows to operate with no help.
These have been extremly harmfull to our overall quality of life.

The gov’t has no business telling it’s citizens what they buy and who they can buy it from. Like wise, it has no business telling it’s citizens what they can sell thier labor for.

You may have point in time of war with relation to countries we are at war with. Or sanctions for behavior that may be harmfull for the US.

The other question you have to ask yourself is at what cost?

I appreciate the Libertarian point of view, I have voted that way for the last 3 presidential elections. The problem is every body is electing the likes of George Bush, and John McCain, that is like most of the posters on this thread. They despise the poor, and want to enrich the rich.

I would even think that our Immigration problem would be covered by the constitution; it is an invasion of sorts. That would be in the scope of the constitution

Now let´s imagine you could stop immigration.

The real problem is not that people want to come to America but that money that seeks cheap labor meets labor that seeks money that can employ it.

If you stop immigration, the labor will not come to the money, but the money will still go to the labor, which is more convenient anyway.

So, now what?

Will you outlaw investing abroad for American companies?

Business in America has outsourced everything that is profitable to do. There are services that would be impossible to out source that is why flooding the labor market with cheap labor appeals to Corporate America.

True, but think about the implications.

The jobs those Mexicans do are only profitable at their wages-

You think those wages are too low.

What would happen if those Mexicans disappeared?

Would the farmers pay higher wages, accept a loss with every person they hire, or would they just close down?

If they cannot outsource, they can still go broke because they cannot compete with cheap oranges from Guatemala.

Meaning, if the Mexicans won´t luck it for 4$ an hour, nobody will at 5$ an hour.

It would simply mean that it would be more profitable to do the same business abroad.

Just because it is not profitable NOW to outsource something does not mean that a immigration stop could not make it so.

The problem is they are not just picking oranges; they are working construction, a business I earn my living at. Being a Contactor I have to maintain Insurance I have to Pay Federal Tax, State Tax I have to pay Sales Tax.

They do not have to pay any of them, what kind of advantage do they have? If they were smart they would not cut my throat, but they do. One in ten customers will pay more to have a reputable contractor do the work.

That is just my industry, The reason place like Circle K and Seven Eleven and the likes can get away paying $8-$9 per hr is the labor market has so many unskilled Immigrants they are fighting over the jobs .

If we were minus the immigrants they would have to pay $11-$12 pr hour would not cut into their profit all that much and the employee could afford to live in the community they work in.

I am not anti Immigration; I am just against an unfair labor market

Well, the more rules and regulations and taxes there are the more expensive it gets to obey the law- An hour of an Austrian plumber cost you 60-80 EUR. That is 90-120$.

Of course people will start to break the law, and yes that effect really is worst when building contractors do not have enough to do and the customers have to look for their moneys worth.

What can I say, the cost of a welfare state.

Of course it is easier for politicians to point at immigrants.

They are not the problem though.

[/quote]

$70 dollars per hr is the going rate for a licensed plumber in Az. You could probably get an illegal for half that, but you would assume all liability. So you think it is fine the Government demands I pay taxes and does not demand an Illegal alien pay taxes. And do you think it right the government makes me stand behind my work and the illegal does not.

103

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
…

In contrast, good grades are frowned upon in a ghetto. Being hardcore is the social norm. The harder, the better the person is viewed as. Chics are not liked for being chaste, they are frowned upon, called names, and socially ostracized. …[/quote]

Yes, most of the problems are self inflicted and must be fixed by the victims.

104

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I feel it is our Government�??s job to protect the workers of America

Not in the constitution and a terrible idea. They’ve tried and caused more damage than good.

just as it the Governments job to protect American Businesses from unfair competitors.
[/quote}
Not in the constitution and a terrible idea. Has caused much more damage than good.

That is why we have trade agreements with different counties. That is why we would sanction China for helping a certain industry that America allows to operate with no help.
These have been extremly harmfull to our overall quality of life.

The gov’t has no business telling it’s citizens what they buy and who they can buy it from. Like wise, it has no business telling it’s citizens what they can sell thier labor for.

You may have point in time of war with relation to countries we are at war with. Or sanctions for behavior that may be harmfull for the US.

The other question you have to ask yourself is at what cost?

I appreciate the Libertarian point of view, I have voted that way for the last 3 presidential elections. The problem is every body is electing the likes of George Bush, and John McCain, that is like most of the posters on this thread. They despise the poor, and want to enrich the rich.

I would even think that our Immigration problem would be covered by the constitution; it is an invasion of sorts. That would be in the scope of the constitution

Now let´s imagine you could stop immigration.

The real problem is not that people want to come to America but that money that seeks cheap labor meets labor that seeks money that can employ it.

If you stop immigration, the labor will not come to the money, but the money will still go to the labor, which is more convenient anyway.

So, now what?

Will you outlaw investing abroad for American companies?

Business in America has outsourced everything that is profitable to do. There are services that would be impossible to out source that is why flooding the labor market with cheap labor appeals to Corporate America.

True, but think about the implications.

The jobs those Mexicans do are only profitable at their wages-

You think those wages are too low.

What would happen if those Mexicans disappeared?

Would the farmers pay higher wages, accept a loss with every person they hire, or would they just close down?

If they cannot outsource, they can still go broke because they cannot compete with cheap oranges from Guatemala.

Meaning, if the Mexicans won´t luck it for 4$ an hour, nobody will at 5$ an hour.

It would simply mean that it would be more profitable to do the same business abroad.

Just because it is not profitable NOW to outsource something does not mean that a immigration stop could not make it so.

The problem is they are not just picking oranges; they are working construction, a business I earn my living at. Being a Contactor I have to maintain Insurance I have to Pay Federal Tax, State Tax I have to pay Sales Tax.

They do not have to pay any of them, what kind of advantage do they have? If they were smart they would not cut my throat, but they do. One in ten customers will pay more to have a reputable contractor do the work.

That is just my industry, The reason place like Circle K and Seven Eleven and the likes can get away paying $8-$9 per hr is the labor market has so many unskilled Immigrants they are fighting over the jobs .

If we were minus the immigrants they would have to pay $11-$12 pr hour would not cut into their profit all that much and the employee could afford to live in the community they work in.

I am not anti Immigration; I am just against an unfair labor market

Well, the more rules and regulations and taxes there are the more expensive it gets to obey the law- An hour of an Austrian plumber cost you 60-80 EUR. That is 90-120$.

Of course people will start to break the law, and yes that effect really is worst when building contractors do not have enough to do and the customers have to look for their moneys worth.

What can I say, the cost of a welfare state.

Of course it is easier for politicians to point at immigrants.

They are not the problem though.

$70 dollars per hr is the going rate for a licensed plumber in Az. You could probably get an illegal for half that, but you would assume all liability. So you think it is fine the Government demands I pay taxes and does not demand an Illegal alien pay taxes. And do you think it right the government makes me stand behind my work and the illegal does not.[/quote]

Of course a government demands that illegal aliens pay taxes. Or to be more precise they demand that there be no illegal aliens at all.

They just have no ways to enforce it.

The question is, if governments make your work twice as expensive as an illegal aliens work and yet have no way to enforce this, how come government officials get away so easily with pointing at illegal immigration?

Was it not entirely obvious what would happen from the start?

From a purely macroeconomic perspective that illegal work is not even a bad thing, a lot of things that will get fixed at 30$ an hour would not get fixed at 60$.

Your problem is that government is pricing you out of the market.

And no, that is not right.

It is however the inevitable consequence of the general attitude that government is there to fix our problems.

105

Our Government does have a way to enforce it, it is called effort. It would be the same way the Gov. would crack down on some one selling Cigarettes with out the sales tax stamp. It is only a misdemeanor not to file Income Tax. It is a felony to file false income tax.
I can understand why some one would hire an illegal at half the wages, but when you do that to the lowest paid workers in America it can not be good. It devalues their labor to a point of poverty, and we will have to support them on the welfare roles. I think one of the major factors of poverty in America is immigration; it devalues the price of labor
What would Austria do if I came over there and worked and did not pay any taxes, would they allow me to stay, could I even get in to the country?
I personally think all these people preaching the values of the free market, have not thought the process through They are caught up in an Ideology. That is as extreme as communism and just as wrong. Market need freedom but you can not penalize people for doing the right thing. Reading back over some of the statements in defense of what they call a free market, I see idiocy, stupidity, possibly the lack of really caring. I would think by reading the posts all those in favor of what they call a free market would be multi millionaires, but I am guessing they are regular people that have bought a load of Bull Shit.

106

I’d still rather be poor in the US than poor in Africa. Cry me a f’n river…

107

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Our Government does have a way to enforce it, it is called effort. It would be the same way the Gov. would crack down on some one selling Cigarettes with out the sales tax stamp. It is only a misdemeanor not to file Income Tax. It is a felony to file false income tax.
I can understand why some one would hire an illegal at half the wages, but when you do that to the lowest paid workers in America it can not be good. It devalues their labor to a point of poverty, and we will have to support them on the welfare roles. I think one of the major factors of poverty in America is immigration; it devalues the price of labor
What would Austria do if I came over there and worked and did not pay any taxes, would they allow me to stay, could I even get in to the country?
I personally think all these people preaching the values of the free market, have not thought the process through They are caught up in an Ideology. That is as extreme as communism and just as wrong. Market need freedom but you can not penalize people for doing the right thing. Reading back over some of the statements in defense of what they call a free market, I see idiocy, stupidity, possibly the lack of really caring. I would think by reading the posts all those in favor of what they call a free market would be multi millionaires, but I am guessing they are regular people that have bought a load of Bull Shit.
[/quote]

First of all the government cannot enforce the taxes on cigarettes.The most smuggled drug in the whole world IS cigarettes. And yeah, that is pretty much the problem you are facing.

And you are making the common mistake as to again expect the government to solve the problems it created.

That would mean it would need more taxes to hire more investigators, which you would have to pay, which would make your work more expensive, which would tax evasion even more attractive.

Then nobodies labor would be devalued. Their labor has THAT EXACT VALUE RIGHT NOW, prices just reflect that. Mansions in Aspen are not scarce because they are expensive, they are expensive because they are scarce. Meaning, prices do not bestow market value on goods or services, they just reflect what their market value currently is.

What Austria would do is pretty simple. The same as the American government does, which is all that it can, which does of course amount to very little.

Furthermore, living in a high tax country, evading taxes is a way of life. We all do it, you are practically considered to be insane if you don´t. We have lost the notion long ago that mindlessly paying taxes is somehow the “right thing to do”.

Finally, I detest the notion that you have to be rich to be pro- free market. I do not know how facing reality can be a function of your income. We live in a world of scarcity and that has consequences that cannot be codified and penalized away.

What you see as stupidity is probably just the part of economic theory that is counterintuitive which is almost all of it. Unfortunately, while noone thinks he is an engineer or surgeon, everyone thinks he is an economist.

And yes, they do not call economics the dismal science for nothing. Because there are people that get it intellectually and still reject it emotionally. However, I must not be true therefore it must not be true is hardly an argument for or against anything.

108

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I personally think all these people preaching the values of the free market, have not thought the process through They are caught up in an Ideology. That is as extreme as communism and just as wrong. Market need freedom but you can not penalize people for doing the right thing. Reading back over some of the statements in defense of what they call a free market, I see idiocy, stupidity, possibly the lack of really caring. I would think by reading the posts all those in favor of what they call a free market would be multi millionaires, but I am guessing they are regular people that have bought a load of Bull Shit.
[/quote]

The distinction you neglect is that government is not needed to enforce the free market. It is something that just happens when individuals are permitted to pursue their own happiness. On the other hand, communism can only happen in either a very small communitarian society or under the fist of heavy-handed tyranny. I trust the kindness of prosperous individuals in the free market before I would trust a faceless bureaucrat to do what is “right.”

The free market is not just for multi millionaires but rather for anyone who relies on consumption above a subsistence level for their livelihood. Without a free market there is only subsistence. But that is no matter because individuals will find their way around such barriers to goods and services – using either violence or “black markets”.

I think perhaps you confuse questions of ethics with what people call “market failure”. There is no such thing as “market failure” but rather failure of individuals.

109

I think you do not understand supply and demand when you say; no one�??s wages have been devalued by immigration,

You are not describing a free market. You are describing a market with no order. A free market would be free to me as well. It is not free to me if I do not have the same advantages as some one that does not have to pay taxes, it may be free to them but not to me.

There are something�??s that the answer lies in being counter intuitive, there are also things that will kill you if you do not listen to your intuitions. Bringing too many aliens to the labor market may be free to the Corporations getting an advantage of cheap labor but it is not free to the person that is unemployed due to an over abundance of cheap labor
110

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think you do not understand supply and demand when you say; no one�??s wages have been devalued by immigration,

You are not describing a free market. You are describing a market with no order. A free market would be free to me as well. It is not free to me if I do not have the same advantages as some one that does not have to pay taxes, it may be free to them but not to me.

There are something�??s that the answer lies in being counter intuitive, there are also things that will kill you if you do not listen to your intuitions. Bringing too many aliens to the labor market may be free to the Corporations getting an advantage of cheap labor but it is not free to the person that is unemployed due to an over abundance of cheap labor

[/quote]

“Free market” just means it is not being hampered by government and regulation. It does not mean you will have any better chances of entering the market over some other group of people. The fact of the matter is that labor is paid based on its overall productivity (the value that added to a company by bringing a new unit of a good into existence).

The unskilled labor market that illegals are attracted to pays little because it is not as productive compared to manufacturing, for example. It does not matter who does the labor or not. Picking tomatoes will pay per bushel based on supply and demand no matter who does it. If the labor disappears so do the tomatoes.

111

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think you do not understand supply and demand when you say; no one�??s wages have been devalued by immigration,

You are not describing a free market. You are describing a market with no order. A free market would be free to me as well. It is not free to me if I do not have the same advantages as some one that does not have to pay taxes, it may be free to them but not to me.

There are something�??s that the answer lies in being counter intuitive, there are also things that will kill you if you do not listen to your intuitions. Bringing too many aliens to the labor market may be free to the Corporations getting an advantage of cheap labor but it is not free to the person that is unemployed due to an over abundance of cheap labor

[/quote]

But the very thing you complain about, and rightfully so, are taxes that are a market distortion!

Obviously the people would be able and willing to hire you at market prices, but not at market prices plus taxes.

112

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think you do not understand supply and demand when you say; no one�??s wages have been devalued by immigration,

You are not describing a free market. You are describing a market with no order. A free market would be free to me as well. It is not free to me if I do not have the same advantages as some one that does not have to pay taxes, it may be free to them but not to me.

There are something�??s that the answer lies in being counter intuitive, there are also things that will kill you if you do not listen to your intuitions. Bringing too many aliens to the labor market may be free to the Corporations getting an advantage of cheap labor but it is not free to the person that is unemployed due to an over abundance of cheap labor

But the very thing you complain about, and rightfully so, are taxes that are a market distortion!

Obviously the people would be able and willing to hire you at market prices, but not at market prices plus taxes.

[/quote]

But do you understand how unrealistic, your free market approach is? I am not saying that what you call as free market is not a novel idea; it is just not the real world. There are rules that they force me to obey, for me to be free everyone must fallow those rules. Other wise it is not free for me. Maybe a term that would be closer would be fair trade. I think the only free market would be Black. We are talking about the best ways to squash poverty not encourage a black market that is detrimental to everyone but the black marketer

113

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think you do not understand supply and demand when you say; no one�??s wages have been devalued by immigration,

You are not describing a free market. You are describing a market with no order. A free market would be free to me as well. It is not free to me if I do not have the same advantages as some one that does not have to pay taxes, it may be free to them but not to me.

There are something�??s that the answer lies in being counter intuitive, there are also things that will kill you if you do not listen to your intuitions. Bringing too many aliens to the labor market may be free to the Corporations getting an advantage of cheap labor but it is not free to the person that is unemployed due to an over abundance of cheap labor

But the very thing you complain about, and rightfully so, are taxes that are a market distortion!

Obviously the people would be able and willing to hire you at market prices, but not at market prices plus taxes.

But do you understand how unrealistic, your free market approach is? I am not saying that what you call as free market is not a novel idea; it is just not the real world. There are rules that they force me to obey, for me to be free everyone must fallow those rules. Other wise it is not free for me. Maybe a term that would be closer would be fair trade. I think the only free market would be Black. We are talking about the best ways to squash poverty not encourage a black market that is detrimental to everyone but the black marketer

[/quote]

I completely understand your problem.

If you get a gun to your head everybody has to have a gun on their heads otherwise the deck is stacked against you.

I admit that when I say “everybody has to play by the rules or else all decent people are fucked” it sounds slightly better, but it is basically the same idea.

Which one of them has a propaganda twist is up to you, but the very idea that you feel that others need to be forced to do something so that you can be free is sad and depressing.

Someone put a weight on your back. You want the same someone to put a weight on everybody else´s back so that there remains a level playingfield. The idea to throw it off never occurs to you, that is what the “bad people” and “criminals” so.

114

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I appreciate the Libertarian point of view, I have voted that way for the last 3 presidential elections. The problem is every body is electing the likes of George Bush, and John McCain, that is like most of the posters on this thread. They despise the poor, and want to enrich the rich.
I would even think that our Immigration problem would be covered by the constitution; it is an invasion of sorts. That would be in the scope of the constitution
[/quote]

I am not sure why you think they hate the poor. The republican congress grew spending on social programs by an incredible amount.

They may just understand that staying out of the pockets of the investment class and businesses increases the standard of living for ALL of us. Especially the poor.

115

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

But do you understand how unrealistic, your free market approach is? I am not saying that what you call as free market is not a novel idea; it is just not the real world. There are rules that they force me to obey, for me to be free everyone must fallow those rules. Other wise it is not free for me. Maybe a term that would be closer would be fair trade. I think the only free market would be Black. We are talking about the best ways to squash poverty not encourage a black market that is detrimental to everyone but the black marketer

[/quote]

A free market approach is not unrealistic because it won’t work. It would work much better than what we have today. The key is to keep working in the correct direction, not towards Socialism or Facism. Your point about your freedom taking away freedom of others makes no sense at all. You should be free to do whatever you want as long as you do not infringe on the freedom of others. This is not a terribly complicated idea.

116

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

But do you understand how unrealistic, your free market approach is? I am not saying that what you call as free market is not a novel idea; it is just not the real world. There are rules that they force me to obey, for me to be free everyone must fallow those rules. Other wise it is not free for me.

Maybe a term that would be closer would be fair trade. I think the only free market would be Black. We are talking about the best ways to squash poverty not encourage a black market that is detrimental to everyone but the black marketer

A free market approach is not unrealistic because it won’t work. It would work much better than what we have today. The key is to keep working in the correct direction, not towards Socialism or Facism.

Your point about your freedom taking away freedom of others makes no sense at all. You should be free to do whatever you want as long as you do not infringe on the freedom of others. This is not a terribly complicated idea.[/quote]

But you have to understand that this is not the system he lives in.

If he obeys the law other people undercut his prices.

If he does not, he risks going to jail or paying hefty fines.

The people who do not pay any taxes at all cannot really be punished, they might get deported and sneak back in.

He however risks a lot by just not paying all his taxes.

Live and let live is one thing, but that would require that the government would leave him alone.

As it is, it is more realistic for him to demand that other people are put in shackles than that the government removes his.

117

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

You want to over simplify life,

I think you’re right.

Take this thought-process for instance:

“Place I live in has no jobs. Place bad. I will go to another place that has jobs.”

…Way too simple. Damn.

What do you do with your house that will never sell? All of your family lives in your home town. You never made enough money to save much, and how are you going to finance your move. You have a high school education or worse.

Prospects of getting a high paying job are slim. If you move away from your mother in law who would watch the kids, do you know what the cost of child care is? These are just some complications with out be too creative.

And the Mexicans that stream across the borders seem to be able to solve these problems.

That is why they get the jobs these Americans apparently cannot take.

Now, if those Americans apparently are unable to deal with their situations should those jobs not be done by someone else?

What good would that do?

[/quote]

Mexicans understand hard work and sacrifice. They have extended families so child care is not an issue. They have a very strong work ethic and would never just sit around like most welfare Americans waiting for handouts. They would have more than one job to make ends meet.

NOBODY truly understands the opportunities this country (USA) offers as much as immigrants. Most born here are fat a lazy and expect things to be given to them. And politicians pander to this idea of entitlement. This is a foreign concept to immigrants.

118

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

You want to over simplify life,

I think you’re right.

Take this thought-process for instance:

“Place I live in has no jobs. Place bad. I will go to another place that has jobs.”

…Way too simple. Damn.

What do you do with your house that will never sell? All of your family lives in your home town. You never made enough money to save much, and how are you going to finance your move. You have a high school education or worse.

Prospects of getting a high paying job are slim. If you move away from your mother in law who would watch the kids, do you know what the cost of child care is? These are just some complications with out be too creative.

And the Mexicans that stream across the borders seem to be able to solve these problems.

That is why they get the jobs these Americans apparently cannot take.

Now, if those Americans apparently are unable to deal with their situations should those jobs not be done by someone else?

What good would that do?

Mexicans understand hard work and sacrifice. They have extended families so child care is not an issue. They have a very strong work ethic and would never just sit around like most welfare Americans waiting for handouts. They would have more than one job to make ends meet.

NOBODY truly understands the opportunities this country (USA) offers as much as immigrants. Most born here are fat a lazy and expect things to be given to them. And politicians pander to this idea of entitlement. This is a foreign concept to immigrants.

[/quote]

I agree with you the Mexican�??s are great people, but we are in America and not Mexico. Mexicans are seriously impacting the wage in the South West I have been told by the experts on this forum that it is not the job of the Government to protect Americans wages from foreign invaders . I happen to disagree. .If America offers such great opportunities we should annex Mexico. I believe you would see where the Mexican loyalties lay.
I can not own property with in 25 miles of the ocean in Mexico. If I want to operate a business in Mexico, I should marry a national; otherwise it could be seized by the Government. Americans are more than generous with their legal offerings to the Mexicans. America should take its laws off of the books if they do not plan on enforcing them.

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[quote]orion wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

But do you understand how unrealistic, your free market approach is? I am not saying that what you call as free market is not a novel idea; it is just not the real world. There are rules that they force me to obey, for me to be free everyone must fallow those rules. Other wise it is not free for me.

Maybe a term that would be closer would be fair trade. I think the only free market would be Black. We are talking about the best ways to squash poverty not encourage a black market that is detrimental to everyone but the black marketer

A free market approach is not unrealistic because it won’t work. It would work much better than what we have today. The key is to keep working in the correct direction, not towards Socialism or Facism.

Your point about your freedom taking away freedom of others makes no sense at all. You should be free to do whatever you want as long as you do not infringe on the freedom of others. This is not a terribly complicated idea.

But you have to understand that this is not the system he lives in.

If he obeys the law other people undercut his prices.

If he does not, he risks going to jail or paying hefty fines.

The people who do not pay any taxes at all cannot really be punished, they might get deported and sneak back in.

He however risks a lot by just not paying all his taxes.

Live and let live is one thing, but that would require that the government would leave him alone.

As it is, it is more realistic for him to demand that other people are put in shackles than that the government removes his. [/quote]

120

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

But do you understand how unrealistic, your free market approach is? I am not saying that what you call as free market is not a novel idea; it is just not the real world. There are rules that they force me to obey, for me to be free everyone must fallow those rules. Other wise it is not free for me. Maybe a term that would be closer would be fair trade. I think the only free market would be Black. We are talking about the best ways to squash poverty not encourage a black market that is detrimental to everyone but the black marketer

A free market approach is not unrealistic because it won’t work. It would work much better than what we have today. The key is to keep working in the correct direction, not towards Socialism or Facism. Your point about your freedom taking away freedom of others makes no sense at all. You should be free to do whatever you want as long as you do not infringe on the freedom of others. This is not a terribly complicated idea.[/quote]

I would think then that they would be free to do as they please as long as the do not interfere with me. You stated the rules. You are not describing a free market ,you are describing two different markets one being free and fair and the other being Black.