The Face of Poverty in America

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

You want to over simplify life,

I think you’re right.

Take this thought-process for instance:

“Place I live in has no jobs. Place bad. I will go to another place that has jobs.”

…Way too simple. Damn.

What do you do with your house that will never sell? All of your family lives in your home town. You never made enough money to save much, and how are you going to finance your move. You have a high school education or worse.

Prospects of getting a high paying job are slim. If you move away from your mother in law who would watch the kids, do you know what the cost of child care is? These are just some complications with out be too creative.

And the Mexicans that stream across the borders seem to be able to solve these problems.

That is why they get the jobs these Americans apparently cannot take.

Now, if those Americans apparently are unable to deal with their situations should those jobs not be done by someone else?

What good would that do?

Mexicans understand hard work and sacrifice. They have extended families so child care is not an issue. They have a very strong work ethic and would never just sit around like most welfare Americans waiting for handouts. They would have more than one job to make ends meet.

NOBODY truly understands the opportunities this country (USA) offers as much as immigrants. Most born here are fat a lazy and expect things to be given to them. And politicians pander to this idea of entitlement. This is a foreign concept to immigrants.

I agree with you the Mexican�??s are great people, but we are in America and not Mexico. Mexicans are seriously impacting the wage in the South West I have been told by the experts on this forum that it is not the job of the Government to protect Americans wages from foreign invaders .

I happen to disagree. .If America offers such great opportunities we should annex Mexico. I believe you would see where the Mexican loyalties lay.

I can not own property with in 25 miles of the ocean in Mexico. If I want to operate a business in Mexico, I should marry a national; otherwise it could be seized by the Government. Americans are more than generous with their legal offerings to the Mexicans. America should take its laws off of the books if they do not plan on enforcing them.
[/quote]

Well, the problem is that while Americans are crying that Mexicans are taking their jobs, no one will do these jobs for that kind of pay other than Mexicans. Americans are too proud and too spoiled to work long hard hours for low pay. But Mexicans see it as low pay is better than no pay.

The problem is that Unions in the US have created a false economy based on entitlement. Demanding high wages for low skilled jobs just costs everyone more money and drags down the economy and the businesses being forced to pay high wages to low skilled workers.

For example, GM uses Union labor and is having to lay off a lot of people, but Foreign companies like Toyota are doing fine because even though most Toyota’s sold in the US are actually built in the US, they do not use Union labor. So their costs are less, yet they produce very reliable cars.

So the fact that non-Union labor car companies have been kicking the ass of car companies like GM for years proves my point. Whether it is a car company or a country, having to pay for entitlement drags everything down.

So it’s not that Mexicans are taking all the jobs. It’s that the US non-skilled wage is totally inflated compared to the rest of the world, not just Mexico.

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think you do not understand supply and demand when you say; no one�??s wages have been devalued by immigration,

You are not describing a free market. You are describing a market with no order. A free market would be free to me as well. It is not free to me if I do not have the same advantages as some one that does not have to pay taxes, it may be free to them but not to me.

There are something�??s that the answer lies in being counter intuitive, there are also things that will kill you if you do not listen to your intuitions. Bringing too many aliens to the labor market may be free to the Corporations getting an advantage of cheap labor but it is not free to the person that is unemployed due to an over abundance of cheap labor

But the very thing you complain about, and rightfully so, are taxes that are a market distortion!

Obviously the people would be able and willing to hire you at market prices, but not at market prices plus taxes.

But do you understand how unrealistic, your free market approach is? I am not saying that what you call as free market is not a novel idea; it is just not the real world. There are rules that they force me to obey, for me to be free everyone must fallow those rules.

Other wise it is not free for me. Maybe a term that would be closer would be fair trade. I think the only free market would be Black. We are talking about the best ways to squash poverty not encourage a black market that is detrimental to everyone but the black marketer

I completely understand your problem.

If you get a gun to your head everybody has to have a gun on their heads otherwise the deck is stacked against you.

I admit that when I say “everybody has to play by the rules or else all decent people are fucked” it sounds slightly better, but it is basically the same idea.

Which one of them has a propaganda twist is up to you, but the very idea that you feel that others need to be forced to do something so that you can be free is sad and depressing.

Someone put a weight on your back. You want the same someone to put a weight on everybody else´s back so that there remains a level playingfield. The idea to throw it off never occurs to you, that is what the “bad people” and “criminals” so.
[/quote]

No one has a gun to my head; our Government insists I pay taxes. And I am guessing they insist you pay taxes as well. Right now I may not agree with the way our Government is spending our money, but I realize we have infrastructure and such that are not covered in the constitution, but must be maintained and even expanded upon. Some one has to pay and I realize that one of those people must be me.

In a society that has no laws, a Black Market would be a free market. Other wise a free market must have rules and laws to guarantee freedom for all.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

You want to over simplify life,

I think you’re right.

Take this thought-process for instance:

“Place I live in has no jobs. Place bad. I will go to another place that has jobs.”

…Way too simple. Damn.

What do you do with your house that will never sell? All of your family lives in your home town. You never made enough money to save much, and how are you going to finance your move. You have a high school education or worse.

Prospects of getting a high paying job are slim. If you move away from your mother in law who would watch the kids, do you know what the cost of child care is? These are just some complications with out be too creative.

And the Mexicans that stream across the borders seem to be able to solve these problems.

That is why they get the jobs these Americans apparently cannot take.

Now, if those Americans apparently are unable to deal with their situations should those jobs not be done by someone else?

What good would that do?

Mexicans understand hard work and sacrifice. They have extended families so child care is not an issue. They have a very strong work ethic and would never just sit around like most welfare Americans waiting for handouts. They would have more than one job to make ends meet.

NOBODY truly understands the opportunities this country (USA) offers as much as immigrants. Most born here are fat a lazy and expect things to be given to them. And politicians pander to this idea of entitlement. This is a foreign concept to immigrants.

I agree with you the Mexican�??s are great people, but we are in America and not Mexico. Mexicans are seriously impacting the wage in the South West I have been told by the experts on this forum that it is not the job of the Government to protect Americans wages from foreign invaders . I happen to disagree. .If America offers such great opportunities we should annex Mexico. I believe you would see where the Mexican loyalties lay.
I can not own property with in 25 miles of the ocean in Mexico. If I want to operate a business in Mexico, I should marry a national; otherwise it could be seized by the Government. Americans are more than generous with their legal offerings to the Mexicans. America should take its laws off of the books if they do not plan on enforcing them.

Well, the problem is that while Americans are crying that Mexicans are taking their jobs, no one will do these jobs for that kind of pay other than Mexicans. Americans are too proud and too spoiled to work long hard hours for low pay. But Mexicans see it as low pay is better than no pay.

The problem is that Unions in the US have created a false economy based on entitlement. Demanding high wages for low skilled jobs just costs everyone more money and drags down the economy and the businesses being forced to pay high wages to low skilled workers. For example, GM uses Union labor and is having to lay off a lot of people, but Foreign companies like Toyota are doing fine because even though most Toyota’s sold in the US are actually built in the US, they do not use Union labor. So their costs are less, yet they produce very reliable cars.

So the fact that non-Union labor car companies have been kicking the ass of car companies like GM for years proves my point. Whether it is a car company or a country, having to pay for entitlement drags everything down.

So it’s not that Mexicans are taking all the jobs. It’s that the US non-skilled wage is totally inflated compared to the rest of the world, not just Mexico.

[/quote]

I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

No one has a gun to my head; our Government insists I pay taxes. And I am guessing they insist you pay taxes as well. Right now I may not agree with the way our Government is spending our money, but I realize we have infrastructure and such that are not covered in the constitution, but must be maintained and even expanded upon. Some one has to pay and I realize that one of those people must be me.

In a society that has no laws, a Black Market would be a free market. Other wise a free market must have rules and laws to guarantee freedom for all.

[/quote]

No one has a gun to your head?

Then try not to pay your taxes. You may insist that you pay voluntary, but you don´t. Since the system leaves you no choice your “decision” to pay or not pay hardly matters.

First they will come to steal your stuff. If you resist them, they will kill you.

End of story.

Plus, markets have developed laws, not laws markets. You have it exactly backwards and I know that because I know how Roman trade law developed out of customs developed at roman fairs.

And our trade laws practically still are Roman trade law, plus a few side notes.

So, black markets have rules. They are just not taxed.

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

No one has a gun to my head; our Government insists I pay taxes. And I am guessing they insist you pay taxes as well. Right now I may not agree with the way our Government is spending our money, but I realize we have infrastructure and such that are not covered in the constitution, but must be maintained and even expanded upon. Some one has to pay and I realize that one of those people must be me.

In a society that has no laws, a Black Market would be a free market. Other wise a free market must have rules and laws to guarantee freedom for all.

No one has a gun to your head?

Then try not to pay your taxes. You may insist that you pay voluntary, but you don´t. Since the system leaves you no choice your “decision” to pay or not pay hardly matters.

First they will come to steal your stuff. If you resist them, they will kill you.

End of story.

Plus, markets have developed laws, not laws markets. You have it exactly backwards and I know that because I know how Roman trade law developed out of customs developed at roman fairs.

And our trade laws practically still are Roman trade law, plus a few side notes.

So, black markets have rules. They are just not taxed.

[/quote]

We wil have to agree to disagree

[quote]I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .[/quote]

We’re becoming a two-tiered society.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

We’re becoming a two-tiered society. [/quote]

Absolutly

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

We’re becoming a two-tiered society.

Absolutly

[/quote]

Becoming? When haven’t we been?

At least in America there is opportunity. That is why people flood across the border.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

We’re becoming a two-tiered society.

Absolutly

Becoming? When haven’t we been?

At least in America there is opportunity. That is why people flood across the border.[/quote]

They flood across the border because life is better in America than in Mexico

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

We’re becoming a two-tiered society.

Absolutly

Becoming? When haven’t we been?

At least in America there is opportunity. That is why people flood across the border.

They flood across the border because life is better in America than in Mexico

[/quote]

And there’s lots of opportunity.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

We’re becoming a two-tiered society.

Absolutly

Becoming? When haven’t we been?

At least in America there is opportunity. That is why people flood across the border.[/quote]

We haven’t been during the great compression. We had middle class rule when we shut the borders. Now we have an ever-growing Hispanic underclass.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

You want to over simplify life,

I think you’re right.

Take this thought-process for instance:

“Place I live in has no jobs. Place bad. I will go to another place that has jobs.”

…Way too simple. Damn.

What do you do with your house that will never sell? All of your family lives in your home town. You never made enough money to save much, and how are you going to finance your move. You have a high school education or worse.

Prospects of getting a high paying job are slim. If you move away from your mother in law who would watch the kids, do you know what the cost of child care is? These are just some complications with out be too creative.

And the Mexicans that stream across the borders seem to be able to solve these problems.

That is why they get the jobs these Americans apparently cannot take.

Now, if those Americans apparently are unable to deal with their situations should those jobs not be done by someone else?

What good would that do?

Mexicans understand hard work and sacrifice. They have extended families so child care is not an issue. They have a very strong work ethic and would never just sit around like most welfare Americans waiting for handouts. They would have more than one job to make ends meet.

NOBODY truly understands the opportunities this country (USA) offers as much as immigrants. Most born here are fat a lazy and expect things to be given to them. And politicians pander to this idea of entitlement. This is a foreign concept to immigrants.

I agree with you the Mexican�??s are great people, but we are in America and not Mexico. Mexicans are seriously impacting the wage in the South West I have been told by the experts on this forum that it is not the job of the Government to protect Americans wages from foreign invaders . I happen to disagree. .If America offers such great opportunities we should annex Mexico. I believe you would see where the Mexican loyalties lay.
I can not own property with in 25 miles of the ocean in Mexico. If I want to operate a business in Mexico, I should marry a national; otherwise it could be seized by the Government. Americans are more than generous with their legal offerings to the Mexicans. America should take its laws off of the books if they do not plan on enforcing them.

Well, the problem is that while Americans are crying that Mexicans are taking their jobs, no one will do these jobs for that kind of pay other than Mexicans. Americans are too proud and too spoiled to work long hard hours for low pay. But Mexicans see it as low pay is better than no pay.

The problem is that Unions in the US have created a false economy based on entitlement. Demanding high wages for low skilled jobs just costs everyone more money and drags down the economy and the businesses being forced to pay high wages to low skilled workers. For example, GM uses Union labor and is having to lay off a lot of people, but Foreign companies like Toyota are doing fine because even though most Toyota’s sold in the US are actually built in the US, they do not use Union labor. So their costs are less, yet they produce very reliable cars.

So the fact that non-Union labor car companies have been kicking the ass of car companies like GM for years proves my point. Whether it is a car company or a country, having to pay for entitlement drags everything down.

So it’s not that Mexicans are taking all the jobs. It’s that the US non-skilled wage is totally inflated compared to the rest of the world, not just Mexico.

I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .
[/quote]

I agree with that. I never stated that illegal was ok. Work visa, green card, etc. But just hooping the fence and then doing what they want is not right. You should call the INS on those landscapers.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

No one has a gun to my head; our Government insists I pay taxes. And I am guessing they insist you pay taxes as well. Right now I may not agree with the way our Government is spending our money, but I realize we have infrastructure and such that are not covered in the constitution, but must be maintained and even expanded upon. Some one has to pay and I realize that one of those people must be me.

In a society that has no laws, a Black Market would be a free market. Other wise a free market must have rules and laws to guarantee freedom for all.

No one has a gun to your head?

Then try not to pay your taxes. You may insist that you pay voluntary, but you don´t. Since the system leaves you no choice your “decision” to pay or not pay hardly matters.

First they will come to steal your stuff. If you resist them, they will kill you.

End of story.

Plus, markets have developed laws, not laws markets. You have it exactly backwards and I know that because I know how Roman trade law developed out of customs developed at roman fairs.

And our trade laws practically still are Roman trade law, plus a few side notes.

So, black markets have rules. They are just not taxed.

We wil have to agree to disagree

[/quote]

[quote]NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

We’re becoming a two-tiered society.

Absolutly

Becoming? When haven’t we been?

At least in America there is opportunity. That is why people flood across the border.

They flood across the border because life is better in America than in Mexico

And there’s lots of opportunity.[/quote]

Which creates better life.

Socialism/Marxism decreases opportunity and kills incentive.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

We’re becoming a two-tiered society.

Absolutly

Becoming? When haven’t we been?

At least in America there is opportunity. That is why people flood across the border.

They flood across the border because life is better in America than in Mexico

And there’s lots of opportunity.

Which creates better life.

Socialism/Marxism decreases opportunity and kills incentive.[/quote]

Create a better life for the Mexicans and delutes the quality of life for America’s working poor

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
They are not taking the jobs others do not want they are taking all the low end jobs and gradually working up into good jobs and driving the price of labor down. And hence you have poverty that in a market free of illegal labor would not exist
We have too many landscapers we nee to reduce them to a point where , If I wanted I could go out earn a living and pay my taxes .

We’re becoming a two-tiered society.

Absolutly

Becoming? When haven’t we been?

At least in America there is opportunity. That is why people flood across the border.

They flood across the border because life is better in America than in Mexico

And there’s lots of opportunity.

Which creates better life.

Socialism/Marxism decreases opportunity and kills incentive.

Create a better life for the Mexicans and delutes the quality of life for America’s working poor
[/quote]

I am not in favor of illegal immigration. I am in favor of the freedoms we have that attracts them.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal
[/quote]

Then get into a different industry!!!

I guess that’s another example of my “simplistic” thinking. If a certain kind of job is being taken over by illegals…I go into a market that is not affected.

(Again, not that I’m a fan of illegals)

[quote]NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal

Then get into a different industry!!!

I guess that’s another example of my “simplistic” thinking. If a certain kind of job is being taken over by illegals…I go into a market that is not affected.

(Again, not that I’m a fan of illegals)[/quote]

I am waiting for a rebound in the buggy whip market.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal

Then get into a different industry!!!

I guess that’s another example of my “simplistic” thinking. If a certain kind of job is being taken over by illegals…I go into a market that is not affected.

(Again, not that I’m a fan of illegals)

I am waiting for a rebound in the buggy whip market.[/quote]

Haha, all through this thread I was thinking about bringing that up. I’m sure there were tons of people who wanted to keep cars off the road because of the buggy whippers and their dignity!

…Huh I should have written “effected”.

[quote]NateOrade wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I will cover the landscaping business in Arizona, I am guessing %50 of the businesses is owned by illegal that employ illegal. For me to start a business I would have to find some one to work door less than minimum wage. I would not be able to pay taxes. If I did that and I got large enough I could ear a decent living. The majority of legitimate landscapers have commercial accts. But they still employ a lot of illegal

Then get into a different industry!!!

I guess that’s another example of my “simplistic” thinking. If a certain kind of job is being taken over by illegals…I go into a market that is not affected.

(Again, not that I’m a fan of illegals)[/quote]

Your response is amusing; it is always the same, run. The problems that plague an industry or society are not solved by running away from them. What political persuasion would suggest some one lose their back bone? I have been self employed for over 20 years, and if I would advise any one to what attributes would assure success, the first one would be tenacity.