I think many forget the advantages of deadlift variations for hamstrings, it’s hard to beat good overall hamstring builders like them. That’s probably one of the biggest regrets bodybuilders have about leaving deadlifts out cas they don’t feel their upper back working much
I worked up to a 500lb deadlift when I used to play football, can’t say I experienced much hypertrophy out of it though.
Just a blockier waist. But some people swear by them for hypertrophy.
Personally, I’ll only deadlift again if I decide to do a PL meet.
I think there will always be some ambiguity on where to put them in your split since it recruits like, what…70, 80% of your body’s muscles. For example, CT advocates using them on lower body pressing days, and it’s not like any of his clients are short on results.
So if you do them after squats, yes, you’ll feel them in your legs more than usual. If you do them after all your back exercises, yes, you’ll feel them in your back more than usual. Find what grooves with you.
I could be completely wrong here, but I think another reason some will opt to put DLs on back days is because of how much they take out of you. If you squat and DL on the same day, you’re bound to be missing a little something on one of those. Like you said, you think deadlifts are awesome. Alot of lifters do and will be sure to find somewhere to fit them into their split.
i’ve seen too many examples of dudes with impressive DLs that didn’t look very impressive at all for me to make the DL a back staple
[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
i’ve seen too many examples of dudes with impressive DLs that didn’t look very impressive at all for me to make the DL a back staple[/quote]
Define “impressive.” I’d say 600 is the bear minimum for that word, and that’s conditional. But I haven’t seen many 600-lb conventional DLers with unimpressive backs, myself.
[quote]eremesu wrote:
your back and trap muscles are keeping hundreds of pounds from yanking your arms out of your sockets. and i think that is a good motivation for them to grow[/quote]
this, and for me atleast my lift day (deadlifts, deficits, and lower back workouts_) leaves my traps very sore
[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
i’ve seen too many examples of dudes with impressive DLs that didn’t look very impressive at all for me to make the DL a back staple[/quote]
Define “impressive.” I’d say 600 is the bear minimum for that word, and that’s conditional. But I haven’t seen many 600-lb conventional DLers with unimpressive backs, myself.[/quote]
To me, impressive for a gym rat would be 500-600, for a power lifter who competes and trains in local meets 600-800, and for competing national power lifters 800-1000. I do allot a local meets and I can tell you I see very few people who pull over 600 pounds, maybe 10% at local meets. Also you have to take in consideration bodyweight. When you see a 140 pound guy pull 500 that is pretty impresive…
But I agree with Holy, I have seen average looking dudes pull and bench impressive weights. See them in the mall and you wouldn’t even know they lift at all. All depends on your goals I guess…
[quote]Colin Wilson wrote:
[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
i’ve seen too many examples of dudes with impressive DLs that didn’t look very impressive at all for me to make the DL a back staple[/quote]
Define “impressive.” I’d say 600 is the bear minimum for that word, and that’s conditional. But I haven’t seen many 600-lb conventional DLers with unimpressive backs, myself.[/quote]
To me, impressive for a gym rat would be 500-600, for a power lifter who competes and trains in local meets 600-800, and for competing national power lifters 800-1000. I do allot a local meets and I can tell you I see very few people who pull over 600 pounds, maybe 10% at local meets. Also you have to take in consideration bodyweight. When you see a 140 pound guy pull 500 that is pretty impresive…
But I agree with Holy, I have seen average looking dudes pull and bench impressive weights. See them in the mall and you wouldn’t even know they lift at all. All depends on your goals I guess…[/quote]
I wish I had good DL leverages. HM is right about some of these guys with impressives pulls; you would never believe them that they work out yet can rip off 550+ for reps like it’s nothing.
Bastards.
Yeah I met a guy in a ADAU meet who competed in the 220’s. He looked like a regular dude, nothing special. Benched 460 raw. The ADAU is a very strict fed. They hold you at the bottom until the bar comes to a complete stop, can’t even be moving from side to side even a little, complete control. Only allowed a leather belt and a singlet for support. The lift was impressive as hell but his physique was very under whelming…
Again, I think you are confusing one guy who has great leverages pulling 600 with the average person. Most people have to have big, strong backs to pull that kind of weight. Of course the outliers, i.e. random powerlifters in low weight classes, will not look the part. Case in point: Tom somethingorother who just pulled 771 at 181. Extremely average looking physique, but a monster pull. But that doesn’t represent the norm, and like people always preach on here, it’s idiotic to base your training around statistical outliers. So the philosophy of “I’ve occasionally seen small guys with big deadlifts so I won’t do it” is silly. I’ve seen a 165-lber double 405 on bench, but generally speaking, people who do that are much bigger, so I’m not going to write off the bench press because of it.
And 220 pounds is nothing to shake a stick at. Usually guys in that class are pretty lean, so if he was under 6’ I have a hard time seeing how his physique could be that unimpressive. A friend of mine lifts in that class and has some really small arms, but gigantic shoulders, traps, quads, etc. His numbers are something like 680/500/680 in single ply, so he is strong as hell. Seeing him in a shirt, you probably can’t tell, but that doesn’t make his physique unimpressive.
I feel my back pretty good deadlifting. Especially when PULLING THE WEIGHT OFF THE GROUND. And in top movement I feel it as pullover. And I don’t feel hams almost at all, I just focus on the back. And I think it’s important if you’re doing it for back to put the weight to the ground and pull it without bouncing. Also for me it’s heavy weights for back, higher reps for legs. And ofc different technique when lifting with hams.
And I saw a skinny guy who deadlifted 6x (if I remember correctly) his bodyweight.
i agree we shouldn’t base things off outliers.
that being said, i have seen ‘enough’ guys with decent deadlifts who’s physique did not impresse me.
what i consider an impressive physique may be different than you.
not looking to start an argument. imo/ime i just feel there are better exercises out there if gaining size is the primary goal
[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
i agree we shouldn’t base things off outliers.
that being said, i have seen ‘enough’ guys with decent deadlifts who’s physique did not impresse me.
what i consider an impressive physique may be different than you.
not looking to start an argument. imo/ime i just feel there are better exercises out there if gaining size is the primary goal
[/quote]
Ya, to a degree, I agree with HM.
If we’re talking bodybuilding/hypertrophy, which it seems that we are (being in the BBing forum), then I think deadlifts done in conjunction with other movements to emphasis lat width/thickness are great. I normally do a variation of deadlifts last in my routine, after my lats and entire back are already very fatigued and engaged from other exercises. Doing them like this, I feel them a ton more and think that they have done much more for me in the hypertrophy department than if I did them first.
That being said, you don’t necessarily have to do the deadlift, you can do a variation of it too. I really like rack pulls and DY Deads (partial deadlifts) as well.
[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
Ya, to a degree, I agree with HM.
If we’re talking bodybuilding/hypertrophy, which it seems that we are (being in the BBing forum), then I think deadlifts done in conjunction with other movements to emphasis lat width/thickness are great. I normally do a variation of deadlifts last in my routine, after my lats and entire back are already very fatigued and engaged from other exercises. Doing them like this, I feel them a ton more and think that they have done much more for me in the hypertrophy department than if I did them first (in the future I can see myself finishing with heavy below knee or mid-shin rack pulls).
That being said, you don’t necessarily have to do the deadlift, you can do a variation of it too. I really like rack pulls and DY Deads (partial deadlifts) as well. [/quote]
This is how I feel too (not just to copy Evan lol). When I’m flat out focusing on hypertrophy rack pulls or DY deads make far more sense and it also makes more sense to prioritise other movements and do them last/not before things they would interfere with. Re the CT using them in his routines, I definitely think speed deads etc. are a different animal if your mostly doing it for neural activation or w/e rather then to hit prs. Right now I’m doing them first because I want to increase my deadlift and all round strength, but I have no doubt my back routine could be better hypertrophy wise with a different setup.
My gym has plenty serious and fairly big guys and my uni gym has a few, the common theme is that I’ve never seen any of them deadlift over 4 plates (ok one guy 5 once) amd in fact have BARELY seen a deadlift performed at all by the big guys, yet they dwarf me and some do things like pullups with 60kg attached for reps… etc.
I do love standard deadlifts though… but not really for hypertrophy just for awesome.
Oh and the deadlift is a hip extension lift, so it’s really more of a hamstring builder first, back second.
[quote]detazathoth wrote:
Oh and the deadlift is a hip extension lift, so it’s really more of a hamstring builder first, back second.[/quote]
I used to train it as first lift on hamstring day because I also believe that to be true- depending on peoples leverages (for me it’s true since I can rack pull stupidly more then I can deadlift). Even if I hated deadlifts I would SLDL for hamstrings and probably rack pull for thickness.
Deadlift can be used as a back exercise but most people don’t train it to be one. It can also be used as a power exercise, or as a test exercise.
Simply lifting the weight up will make you fairly strong at picking weight up off the floor. (obvious)
Lifting without straps will greatly increase your forearm strength. Low reps heavy weight increases it pretty fast.
Lifting fast with rhythm decent weight and 10+ reps can help your vertical. Low weight explosive will also help it.
I never knew how it hit the back either until I realized it was great after you prefatigue the back with rows and pull downs. The less ground contact and more TUT the better. Most people think deadlift go heavy, and don’t use it for hypertrophy. Like you said it’s very isometric so if you go up and down 1 or 2 reps then drop the weight you might get an isometric workout of 3 seconds if your not struggling 5 if you are. I don’t think any muscle would really respond to that. Lower the weight a little, retract the scapula at the top hold for a second or two go down smooth and pop right back up. Doing that after some rows really helps. But don’t look for a burn, sometimes you can work a muscle without getting that.
[quote]dave14 wrote:
@eremesu
What is your opinion on isometric bench holds as a chest builder?[/quote]
I see it more as an exercise which adds muscle everywhere at high loads. If you are strong enough to deadlift 405 you will probably have a stronger back row as well. I have a weak deadlift and a wide and not thick back. I can do pullups very well, but row not so well. That isn’t a coincidence in my mind
[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
i’ve seen too many examples of dudes with impressive DLs that didn’t look very impressive at all for me to make the DL a back staple[/quote]
How many dudes train to be strong in the deadlift as opposed to being symmetrically big. Plenty of people specialize in training the lift and worry less about the look, but I agree that it isn’t the be all. I mean, Yates invented a row to complement deadlifting, Ronnie rowed, heck has any pro bodybuilder not rowed?