This sparks some thought on Louie Simmons weststyle training. His conjugate methods did 2 days max lifting for heavy singles, doubles, or 3s. Then dynamic effort work the other two training days. Lots of accessories and recovery, prehab work even on days off. I struggle to see how that works until I link it with the advanced level of lifter he works with. They destroy so much muscle that a couple of days of near max work would require more recovery time.
Novice and intermediate lifters running the Darkhorse can get away with 4 days of near max work because the base strength levels arenāt to the point where cutting back actually makes gains.
At some point in training dialing back aids lifts (Iām not there). I did notice I pushed my 531 with so much high volume back down reps my numbers were going the wrong way toward the end. I cut out volume and the numbers climbed again. Recently Iāve been able to add volume at the new weight levels and Iām seeing growth again. I assume Iāll hit a ceiling again and need to dump volume again until the body responds/adapts to the new intensity levelsā¦
@gorship hi my friend welcome to the log, great to have another darkhorse member on the forum.
@Irishman92@T3hPwnisher I think the darkhorse is meant to be run by beginners, intermediates and possibly early advanced lifters.
I could see crazy strong guys like T3hpwnisher would be in for a long session, with a fuckton of volume, but I donāt know really.
2 x 6 @ bar: DL, row, Hang clean, fr Squat, press, squat, GM, push press
Main giant set:
box jump 8 x 3 Front squat 5 x 40, 3 x 50, 1 x60, 70 PR, 75(B) kg PR Volume
55 kg x 8, 5, 5
hanging leg raise 3 x 7 + 5 x 6
pick up from floor to overhead 8 x 25 kg plate
Speed DL EMOM
10 x 3 @ 107,5 kg
Assistance
Farmers walks on stairs 3 x 20 kg plate each hand about 1 minute
Done in just under an hour.
Front squats are really hard, but much better than it was about 6 month ago.
The hard part is staying tight and upright, I hope this will pay off in some way.
DL emom about as much weight as I can do and still having a decent form.
Had the time to do a bit of assistance, not as drained as in the beginning of the program, still sweating like a madman throughout the workout.
Iām beginning to think physical anatomy plays a big factor in front squats (bigger than I originally thought).
My best front squat is 275 and I might never do that again. I donāt have any reason to front squat if itās going to bother my hip. Itāll be awhile before I try it again.
It requires a lot of upper back strength and the upright torso may or may not be good for hips and knees.
I think your thoracic spine makes them tough for you - all those years of cycling.
Nice work on the PR! If they donāt hurt then keep grinding them out.
I agree with your assessment about individual anatomy dictating front squatsā effects. If I do front squats more than three weeks in a row, I get aches and pains in my hips and thoracic spine, yet back squats, as long as I progress slowly, donāt have those effects. Yet for other lifters Iāve known, the exact opposite is true.
I think part of the long term game of lifting weights is accepting our differences. I donāt have to do XYZ because everyone says so.
For some reason I think I let some of that crap stress me out in the past. Iām trying to get past it but Iām still stuck on the big four (and some arbitrary standards) because thatās what everyone does.
Iām getting better though. Back injuries and hip surgery will teach you whatās really important.
I totally agree; the tone here, especially a decade ago when I first joined, is very pro-Big-4. Thankfully, for the last couple of years or so, the info in articles and the regular liftersā training here seem to be swinging towards a more balanced mix of exercises and training methods, which has helped me regain perspective. When nearly every article was about how to do the big 4 and nearly every training log was set up around the big 4, the inundation sank in!
I recently turned 40 and, like when I turned 30, have been evaluating how I train and, most importantly, WHY I train. Iām finally starting to let myself auto-regulate my routines - including not having a routine and just winging it for weeks at a time! - and itās been physically and mentally liberating. If any of the big 4 help me achieve my goals for training, Iāll do them. If not, Iām giving myself the room to simply exercise according to my lifestyle needs and simply what I ENJOY or feel like doing. Since Iām aware of the need to balance agonist and antagonist strength, such outlandish autoregulation has benefitted me.
Thanks Hog, but honestly, this is the first time I really have tried to dig in as deep as I dare on front squats.
Last time was this winter doing 5 or 6 reps with 60 was the most weight Iāve ever done on front squats.
Itās kind of a cool lift. I wouldnāt be surprised if I did 3 reps with 75 next week. Neural adaptions and all of that.
Conjugate - build up strength
Powerbuilder - break (lol@brian)
Darkhorse - little more reppy but conjugate base (I would imagine volume)
Different rotating % program (probably āpeakingā ish)
I unno just my thoughts anyway - Iām not strong enough to make anecdotal observations.
I honestly donāt disagree with this. It would be very hard to be strong without these moves or variations of them. Can certainly be athletic, fast, powerful, etc, but strong would be a challenge.
The inverse (converse?) of the quote can also be true - those who are good at the big 4 measure everyone else according to standards that only apply to a small portion of gym or general culture.
Itās the lack of variations by that statement. Jim doesnāt say variations, and he really doesnāt advocate them in his programming. Having industry coaches/experts make all or nothing statements like this is part of what causes people to misunderstand long term weight training.
Not in that very brief sound bite, no, but in his writing he does. Much like how Jim says āchinsā to mean āany manner of pulling your chin over the bar to include pull ups, chin ups, ng chins, etcā, bench press doesnāt explicitly mean barbell bench press (if you see Jims own training, he uses a swiss bar) dead isnāt barbell deads (trap bar for Jim) squats arenāt barbell (SSB for Jim), etc.
The biggest issue is people see these words and immediately assume it is the powerlifting definition of the words for some reason, when the language is VERY broad. If I go do some front squats today, I will say I squatted. If you interpret that to mean with a barbell on my back, it is based off an assumption.
Got here a bit late and Pwn hit it on the head per usual, but Jim has certainly given the green light for variations of the lifts as long as they fall into the same movement pattern.
Thereās guys like CT and Rusin that have put out similar sentiments but use words like āhingeā and āhorizontal pushā, but they really arenāt saying anything different.
Itās like the weight lifting worldās version of the urban dictionary. If itās used in the same context over and over then suddenly thatās the first meaning that comes to mind.
The part about Jim not working with the variations is from what Iāve seen in his forum. People come in and ask about replacing X with Y (a similar movement pattern) and he says āDo what you want but I canāt vouch for it because itās not my program.ā
I guess Iāve misinterpreted that to mean that he believes X can only be X.
