[quote]forlife wrote:<<< They have as much evidence, logic, reason, and supportive spiritual testimony as you do. >>>[/quote]Yes, in the realm of sinful autonomous independence from the one true and living God this is ultimately true.[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Don’t you get it yet? >>>[/quote] You will never get it from your side of the spiritual grave.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.
[/quote]
You bury your head in the sand on your own polytheism by claiming that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same person, despite the obvious logical contradictions of Jesus praying to the Father, having a physical body, and so on. Ignoring the contradictions doesn’t make them go away.[/quote] I agree with this Athanasian Creed 1500 year old Christian creed agreed upon in substance by literally every single orthodox Christian communion in the history of the world. Catholic or Protestant. Our church is working with 500 others of every protestant flavor imaginable and we ALL, every last one agree on this. Because it’s like the unavoidably clear teaching of scripture n stuff like that.
I also go very much along with this… CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity … of all things very Catholic entry @ newadvent. It begins like with: “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion”. That is exactly right. It IS THE central doctrine without which there is NO biblical Christianity. He who hath the wrong god or gods hath none of Christ nor the saving gospel. Absolutely NOTHING could be clearer in scripture and he who coddles them does them no service who worship idols in place of the true and living God. I will not be thus guilty when standing to give an account of my deeds done on this earth.
[/quote]
So you believe in the Trinity because MAN has told you to? There are many Bible verses that clearly do not support such a belief:
“but of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32). If they are the same person, how could the Father know something that Jesus does not?
“for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:38). Same question, how is the Father greater if they are in fact the same person?
“and this is life eternal, that they may know thee, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3). Did He send Himself?
“The Son can do nothing of himself.” (John 3:19) How is this so if He and the Father are one and the same.
“Why callest thou me good? There is none good, but one, that is God.” (Mark 10:18) Who is He referring to?
“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name that is above every name.” (Philippians 2:9)
And who was taken care of things in the universe when Jesus was an infant/child?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< They have as much evidence, logic, reason, and supportive spiritual testimony as you do. >>>[/quote]Yes, in the realm of sinful autonomous independence from the one true and living God this is ultimately true.[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Don’t you get it yet? >>>[/quote] You will never get it from your side of the spiritual grave.
[/quote]
They say the same thing about you.
Who is right?
I have not been here for a long time, nor will I. But I wanted to address this simple explanation of the Trinity and a final tidbit to think of. Then I am done, because such conversations get nowhere.
The definition of what the trinity is has been shown before, but I will once again:
The one BEING of God is shared between three PERSONS.
BEING is WHAT someone/something is
PERSON is who they are.
We are all human. How many different humans are there? Just one. but how many people make up this one race/being? 6 billion and going up.
What God is made up of, his eternality, his power, his love, his will, and his purpose, are all shared equally by three persons (not people, because that would imply some humanity).
Christ, who is the eternal Son, submitted himself to the Father. And when he took on human flesh, he accepted many of its limits (though not all). That is why he did not know the day or hour, or prayed to the Father, or admits that he was sent by the Father. That is because One person of Yahweh submitted himself to another. Submission does not mean inferiority. We are all in submission to our government, to our bosses, to our teachers etc. That does not make them more human than us, or more deserving of rights than us.
One person of God humbly submitted himself to another. Yet he is still fully deserving of worship.
Hebrews 1
Introduction: God Has Spoken Fully and Finally in His Son
1 After God spoke long ago1 in various portions2 and in various ways3 to our ancestors4 through the prophets, [NET Notes, TSK] 2 in these last days he has spoken to us in a son,1 whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world.2 Matt 21:38; Gen 1:3; Ps 33:6; John 1:3; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16; [NET Notes, TSK] 3 The Son is1 the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word,2 and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.3 2Cor 4:4; Phil 2:6; Col 1:15; [NET Notes, TSK] 4 Thus he became1 so far better than the angels as2 he has inherited a name superior to theirs. Phil 2:9; [NET Notes, TSK]
The Son Is Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God1 ever say, ?You are my son! Today I have fathered you??2 And in another place3 he says,4 ?I will be his father and he will be my son.?5 Ps 2:7; Acts 13:33; Heb 5:5; 2Sam 7:14; 1Chr 22:10; [NET Notes, TSK] 6 But when he again brings1 his firstborn into the world, he says, ?Let all the angels of God worship him!?2 Ps 97:7; [NET Notes, TSK] 7 And he says1 of the angels, ?He makes2 his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire,?3 Ps 104:4; [NET Notes, TSK] 8 but of1 the Son he says,2
?Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,3
and a righteous scepter4 is the scepter of your kingdom. Ps 45:6; [NET Notes, TSK]
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions1 with the oil of rejoicing.?2 [NET Notes, TSK]
10 And,
?You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord,1
and the heavens are the works of your hands. Ps 102:25; [NET Notes, TSK]
11 They will perish, but you continue.
And they will all grow old like a garment, Isa 51:6; 2Pet 3:7; 2Pet 3:10; [TSK]
12 and like a robe you will fold them up
and like a garment1 they will be changed,
but you are the same and your years will never run out.?2 [NET Notes, TSK]
13 But to which of the angels1 has he ever said, ?Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet??2 Ps 110:1; Acts 2:34; 1Cor 15:25; Eph 1:20; Heb 10:12; [NET Notes, TSK] 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to serve those1 who will inherit salvation? [NET Notes, TSK]
In the beginning was Eve. Eve was with man, and Eve was man. Sound familiar?
Now the tidbit:
I cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that what I say is true. No one can, no matter who you are. But when a group comes along and states things contrary to their holy book, it kinda raises some red flags.
If I claimed to be a Muslim, but I said Mohommed was not the final prophet of Allah, that he didn’t make a night flight to Jerusalem, and in fact that the teachings of the Qu’ran have been manipulated and changed, hmmm, guess what, no Muslim would consider me one of them, and in certain radical countries, I would be killed.
This is why I do not believe in the continuance of divine revelation and miracles:
-
Scripture says they will cease
-
Contradictions. Many different sects claim all sorts of revelations from God and use “miracles” to prove it. Well how about this. Any group that claims God spoke to them (or their founder) and allowed them to use miracles, well…that wasn’t God in the first place. Hallucinations, drugs, psychological disorders and/or simple fabrications are all that they are.
Certain cults like JW’s teach that Christ was the Archangel Michael, then scriptures do not indicate any such thing.
Unitarians believe in the numerical absoluteness of God, yet cannot explain why the Messiah claimed to be God, was prophesied to be God, spoke TO God, deserves worship like God, and can forgive sins like God.
Catholics claim guidance from the Holy Spirit, yet apparently the Holy Spirit led them to the crusades, the Inquisitions, as well as the Avignon Papacy.
A simple exercise for anyone:
Examine all Christian denominations, and compare them to the Scriptures. Can you see them in the Bible?
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< They say the same thing about you. Who is right?[/quote]The witness of the Spirit of God over 2000 years of church history where there is virtually universal agreement on a bizarre doctrine that no man would be motivated to come up with on his own. The most widely accepted doctrine in all of Christendom for 2 millenia. EVERYBODY agrees on this except a few fringe newcomers. Why? Because it really IS that clear in the bible which was God’s plan seein how He commanded us not to have other Gods n all.
He was quite clear in the new covenant revelation about His own nature. Even in the old once you see it in light of the new. People can and do believe whatever they want, but I will not stand and silently allow my God to be blasphemed by ALLEGED WORSHIPERS of His. Pagans are one thing. They’re not claiming to represent Him, but when the name of Christ Jesus is associated with damnable heresy or practice it is the Christian’s duty to contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3) Not try to find a way to make all the universe OK regardless of how plainly they are condemned in scripture.
[quote]forbes wrote:<<< The definition of what the trinity is has been shown before, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[/quote]Very very good Forbes. Your exposition of the doctrine of the trinity that follows is quite sound indeed. [quote]forbes wrote:<<< A simple exercise for anyone:
Examine all Christian denominations, and compare them to the Scriptures. Can you see them in the Bible?[/quote]I do however fear that your proposed exercise may not be that simple for everyone =] As much as we’d really like it to be and as soon as elder forlife shows up you’ll see what I mean.
[quote]forbes wrote:
I have not been here for a long time, nor will I. But I wanted to address this simple explanation of the Trinity and a final tidbit to think of. Then I am done, because such conversations get nowhere.
The definition of what the trinity is has been shown before, but I will once again:
The one BEING of God is shared between three PERSONS.
BEING is WHAT someone/something is
PERSON is who they are.
We are all human. How many different humans are there? Just one. but how many people make up this one race/being? 6 billion and going up.
What God is made up of, his eternality, his power, his love, his will, and his purpose, are all shared equally by three persons (not people, because that would imply some humanity).
Christ, who is the eternal Son, submitted himself to the Father. And when he took on human flesh, he accepted many of its limits (though not all). That is why he did not know the day or hour, or prayed to the Father, or admits that he was sent by the Father. That is because One person of Yahweh submitted himself to another. Submission does not mean inferiority. We are all in submission to our government, to our bosses, to our teachers etc. That does not make them more human than us, or more deserving of rights than us.
One person of God humbly submitted himself to another. Yet he is still fully deserving of worship.
Hebrews 1
Introduction: God Has Spoken Fully and Finally in His Son
1 After God spoke long ago1 in various portions2 and in various ways3 to our ancestors4 through the prophets, [NET Notes, TSK] 2 in these last days he has spoken to us in a son,1 whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he created the world.2 Matt 21:38; Gen 1:3; Ps 33:6; John 1:3; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16; [NET Notes, TSK] 3 The Son is1 the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word,2 and so when he had accomplished cleansing for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.3 2Cor 4:4; Phil 2:6; Col 1:15; [NET Notes, TSK] 4 Thus he became1 so far better than the angels as2 he has inherited a name superior to theirs. Phil 2:9; [NET Notes, TSK]
The Son Is Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God1 ever say, ?You are my son! Today I have fathered you??2 And in another place3 he says,4 ?I will be his father and he will be my son.?5 Ps 2:7; Acts 13:33; Heb 5:5; 2Sam 7:14; 1Chr 22:10; [NET Notes, TSK] 6 But when he again brings1 his firstborn into the world, he says, ?Let all the angels of God worship him!?2 Ps 97:7; [NET Notes, TSK] 7 And he says1 of the angels, ?He makes2 his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire,?3 Ps 104:4; [NET Notes, TSK] 8 but of1 the Son he says,2
?Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,3
and a righteous scepter4 is the scepter of your kingdom. Ps 45:6; [NET Notes, TSK]
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions1 with the oil of rejoicing.?2 [NET Notes, TSK]
10 And,
?You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord,1
and the heavens are the works of your hands. Ps 102:25; [NET Notes, TSK]
11 They will perish, but you continue.
And they will all grow old like a garment, Isa 51:6; 2Pet 3:7; 2Pet 3:10; [TSK]
12 and like a robe you will fold them up
and like a garment1 they will be changed,
but you are the same and your years will never run out.?2 [NET Notes, TSK]
13 But to which of the angels1 has he ever said, ?Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet??2 Ps 110:1; Acts 2:34; 1Cor 15:25; Eph 1:20; Heb 10:12; [NET Notes, TSK] 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to serve those1 who will inherit salvation? [NET Notes, TSK]
In the beginning was Eve. Eve was with man, and Eve was man. Sound familiar?
Now the tidbit:
I cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that what I say is true. No one can, no matter who you are. But when a group comes along and states things contrary to their holy book, it kinda raises some red flags.
If I claimed to be a Muslim, but I said Mohommed was not the final prophet of Allah, that he didn’t make a night flight to Jerusalem, and in fact that the teachings of the Qu’ran have been manipulated and changed, hmmm, guess what, no Muslim would consider me one of them, and in certain radical countries, I would be killed.
This is why I do not believe in the continuance of divine revelation and miracles:
-
Scripture says they will cease
-
Contradictions. Many different sects claim all sorts of revelations from God and use “miracles” to prove it. Well how about this. Any group that claims God spoke to them (or their founder) and allowed them to use miracles, well…that wasn’t God in the first place. Hallucinations, drugs, psychological disorders and/or simple fabrications are all that they are.
Certain cults like JW’s teach that Christ was the Archangel Michael, then scriptures do not indicate any such thing.
Unitarians believe in the numerical absoluteness of God, yet cannot explain why the Messiah claimed to be God, was prophesied to be God, spoke TO God, deserves worship like God, and can forgive sins like God.
Catholics claim guidance from the Holy Spirit, yet apparently the Holy Spirit led them to the crusades, the Inquisitions, as well as the Avignon Papacy.
A simple exercise for anyone:
Examine all Christian denominations, and compare them to the Scriptures. Can you see them in the Bible? [/quote]
Christ Himself said that God was greater than Him.
Greater in AUTHORITY.
“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:5-11).
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Christ Himself said that God was greater than Him.[/quote]He said the Father was greater than Him. Not God. An in His earthly incarnation He was. Look friend. This is well and long established. Even most rank God hating liberal scholars of the New Testament know that they are confronted with a fully divine and co-eternal Jesus there. They just don’t believe it regardless of what it says.
And finally, before I am done (man I hate it when I get suckered back in).
Heb 2: 8-9
For when he put all things under his control, he left nothing outside of his control. At present we do not yet see all things under his control, but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God?s grace he would experience death on behalf of everyone
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< They say the same thing about you. Who is right?[/quote]The witness of the Spirit of God over 2000 years of church history where there is virtually universal agreement on a bizarre doctrine that no man would be motivated to come up with on his own. The most widely accepted doctrine in all of Christendom for 2 millenia. EVERYBODY agrees on this except a few fringe newcomers. Why? Because it really IS that clear in the bible which was God’s plan seein how He commanded us not to have other Gods n all.
He was quite clear in the new covenant revelation about His own nature. Even in the old once you see it in light of the new. People can and do believe whatever they want, but I will not stand and silently allow my God to be blasphemed by ALLEGED WORSHIPERS of His. Pagans are one thing. They’re not claiming to represent Him, but when the name of Christ Jesus is associated with damnable heresy or practice it is the Christian’s duty to contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3) Not try to find a way to make all the universe OK regardless of how plainly they are condemned in scripture.
[/quote]
Your statement that those who reject the Trinity are “fringe newcomers” is either disingenuous or extremely ignorant. There were many early Christians who didn’t believe it.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Christ Himself said that God was greater than Him.[/quote]He said the Father was greater than Him. Not God. An in His earthly incarnation He was. Look fiend. This is well and long established. Even most rank God hating liberal scholars of the New Testament know that they are confronted with a fully divine and co-eternal Jesus there. They just don’t believe it regardless of what it says.
[/quote]
“Why callest thou me good? There is none good, but one, that is God.”
Here He clearly refers to God, but is also clearly not referring to Himself.
Your all nitpicking over tiny details.
Im a practising Christian (or at least try to be)
Super saiyan your religion is probably a cult…After what I have read thus far.
Just follow the 10 commandments, follow a proper Christian religion and don’t do bad to people.
Orthodox Christian.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Christ Himself said that God was greater than Him.[/quote]He said the Father was greater than Him. Not God. An in His earthly incarnation He was. Look fiend. This is well and long established. Even most rank God hating liberal scholars of the New Testament know that they are confronted with a fully divine and co-eternal Jesus there. They just don’t believe it regardless of what it says.
[/quote]“Why callest thou me good? There is none good, but one, that is God.”
Here He clearly refers to God, but is also clearly not referring to Himself.[/quote]I thought you were referring to John 14:28 where He says:
[quote]“You heard that I said to you, “I go away, and I will come to you.” If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,” [/quote] Instead you were referring to an incomplete piece of Mark 10:17-18 (also Luke 18:19) which says:
[quote]17-As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18-And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. [/quote]What’s ironic here is that Jesus is actually affirming His own deity here in a round about way. (which yes He did do). The man calls Him “good teacher” indicating merely a wise man and the Lord responds by telling Him in essence "if all you believe I am is a “teacher” (rabbi) them why are you calling me good as God alone is good. (also by inescapable implication a statement of the universal badness of mankind). He claims His own goodness everywhere.
Read the Athanasian creed I linked to Athanasian Creed . THAT IS the God of the bible as He has revealed Himself to us. Those early councils and creeds were for the very purpose of establishing a foundation early to avoid utterly foundational heresy on somewhat important things like who and what God is.
Look friend, I don’t know what else to tell ya. Joseph Smith Jr. was a known crackpot schemer where he was from. This was not his first goofball plot for attention… or second… or third. This one just happened to work beyond his wildest dreams. That’s why He took them to Ohio. He had to get away from where everybody knew him. He went from laughingstock to full on charlatan once he figured out he could get fame, money AND laid all in the same package. This is recent history man. Documented to the hilt. How well I know I read ALL of it.
I am going to give you another chance to be honest like your homey here whose name escapes me at the moment. I am asking you again. HOW MANY GODS ARE THERE? Now hold on. I did NOT ask, how many gods WE have to do with or how many are our father or which one is the greatest. I didn’t ask nunna that. I did ask HOW MANY GODS… ALTOGETHER ARE THERE? Your friend says, to his credit, “who knows”. Now before I have to pull your pants down in front of all these nice people with documentation I have waiting at the ready, please tell us. HOW MANY GODS ARE THERE?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< They say the same thing about you. Who is right?[/quote]The witness of the Spirit of God over 2000 years of church history where there is virtually universal agreement on a bizarre doctrine that no man would be motivated to come up with on his own. The most widely accepted doctrine in all of Christendom for 2 millenia. EVERYBODY agrees on this except a few fringe newcomers. Why? Because it really IS that clear in the bible which was God’s plan seein how He commanded us not to have other Gods n all.
He was quite clear in the new covenant revelation about His own nature. Even in the old once you see it in light of the new. People can and do believe whatever they want, but I will not stand and silently allow my God to be blasphemed by ALLEGED WORSHIPERS of His. Pagans are one thing. They’re not claiming to represent Him, but when the name of Christ Jesus is associated with damnable heresy or practice it is the Christian’s duty to contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3) Not try to find a way to make all the universe OK regardless of how plainly they are condemned in scripture.
[/quote]
Can you please address the actual point? The Trinity doctrine is only one example. Your views on free will are another example. And the list of doctrinal differences, some enormous and some minor, goes on ad infinitum…
I’m asking for a unique reason why people should believe your god is real, as opposed to the gods of so many other religions, Christian or otherwise.
They all claim to have received divine inspiration. They all claim god has spoken to them, chosen them, and saved them.
You have nothing unique to offer. There is no unique reason for believing you over anyone else. Your claims fall flat, in the context of everyone else claiming to have the TRUTH, for the exact reasons you offer in support of your own claims.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:<<< The definition of what the trinity is has been shown before, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[/quote]Very very good Forbes. Your exposition of the doctrine of the trinity that follows is quite sound indeed. [quote]forbes wrote:<<< A simple exercise for anyone:
Examine all Christian denominations, and compare them to the Scriptures. Can you see them in the Bible?[/quote]I do however fear that your proposed exercise may not be that simple for everyone =] As much as we’d really like it to be and as soon as elder forlife shows up you’ll see what I mean.
[/quote]
You do understand he’s disagreeing with you, right?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Christ Himself said that God was greater than Him.[/quote]He said the Father was greater than Him. Not God. An in His earthly incarnation He was. Look fiend. This is well and long established. Even most rank God hating liberal scholars of the New Testament know that they are confronted with a fully divine and co-eternal Jesus there. They just don’t believe it regardless of what it says.
[/quote]
Fiend = Freudian slip? 
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Christ Himself said that God was greater than Him.[/quote]He said the Father was greater than Him. Not God. An in His earthly incarnation He was. Look fiend. This is well and long established. Even most rank God hating liberal scholars of the New Testament know that they are confronted with a fully divine and co-eternal Jesus there. They just don’t believe it regardless of what it says.
[/quote]
Fiend = Freudian slip? ;)[/quote]Cute, of course that’s a typo. I meant friend and I actually did. If forbes disagrees me I would be disappointed, but then so be it. He’ll grow out of it God bless em =]
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< Deeds? I thought you believed in ‘faith alone’ salvation? Just sayin’ you said that yourself…[/quote]Grace by faith alone indeed. My deeds will gain or cost me rewards not heaven… in a nutshell.
I’ll let somebody else address your defense of Mormonism for now.
[/quote]
Funny, I never thought of salvation as a school fund raiser. How many rolls of wrapping paper do you have to sell to get a good seat?
I am not defending Mormonism, I am defending people. Good, decent folks your no better than, but you are insulting. I am going to trust the words of actual practicing Mormons before I trust what you’ve been brain washed into thinking about them. You are applying propaganda that you’ve been taught and calling them liars? Denying truth doesn’t make you better, it makes you ignorant. Yes, I am pissed off at you because your being a first class jerk. Arrogant and ignorant.
You are sowing the seeds of hatred and discontent based on lies, so really, whose doing the devils work? Hint: It ain’t the mormons.