The Christian God: How do you know he's the good guy?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
VERY GOOD! I think Elder Havens was still a bit better though. Great Testimony, seriously. The trouble is your Jesus doesn’t exist and Satan is more than happy to have you and anyone else passionately testifying of absolutely ANY jesus imaginable except the one gloriously exalted in the pages of His word.

I’m gonna go ahead and help elder forlife out a bit by asking you a question to which you will give me some version of the LDS answer and maybe he’ll have a hint.

How do you know that Joseph Smith was a prophet God used to “restore” the one true church to the earth and that the angel Moroni gave him golden plates conveying the book of Mormon which is a true witness of Jesus Christ written in “reformed Egyptian” through which “a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book.”? How?

[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Remember, a house divided against itself cannot stand. How can you claim that Satan is behind our church when we preach for the cause of Christ and against Satan? Your argument is ridiculous. “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” >>>[/quote] You are IN Satans house. There is no division. He doesn’t care what anybody believes or does as long he gets to lead them to hell. He loves to have religious people talking about Jesus even more than rank, perverse God deny pagans running violent and naked through the streets. The devil disguises himself as an “angel of light” 2nd Cor. 11:4.

He doesn’t always show up all hideous and terrifying. Many times he looks like a couple fine clean cut upright young men smiling n friendly carrying a message of death. He will help you himself become a “better” father, husband, neighbor, and friend; just a better man period, if that’s what he thinks will most effectively keep you in bondage and it looks like in your case he’s been right so far. My heart and my hand go out to you man. I mean that, Let’s see what elder forlife says.

[/quote]

You do realize that the whole “Satan is deceiving you and you are following satan” can be turned around on you right? You can go back and forth all day and never be able to prove it either way so it’s wasted reasoning. Have I not demonstrated that? I can simply say that ‘Calvin was a follower of Satan and is leading all his souls to hell’ and you couldn’t prove me wrong. It’s a waste of reasoning and a colossal waste of time.

Jesus said we judge the tree by it’s fruit. Super Saiyan does not to be a sower of rotten fruit and therefore not a follower of satan.

The golden rule of evagelization is don’t evangelize to those who already believe, just not as you.
If you want to lead people to God, lead people who don’t believe and let God put them where he wants them.[/quote]

I’ve made this exact point with him. He can accuse others of being deceived by Satan posturing as an angel of light, but if Satan is so convincing that the very elect will be led astray, he could be under the influence of Satan himself and never know it.

142

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

They believe that Jesus Christ lived a perfect life and atoned for the sins of all mankind. That’s pretty Christian don’t you think?[/quote]They belive that God the Father, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are 3 gods. They belive that God the father begat the son by physical intercourse and that the father was once a man and now lives on the planet Kolob physically siring the preexistent souls that are now waitng for bodies here. That’s with all of his wives that he was married to in his mortal life in his temple before he became a god who was… and so on and so on. Think I’m kiddin? THAT’S JUST FOR BARE STARTERS. Whatever in the name of all that’s holy that is? It ain’t Christian.[/quote]

I’m Mormon, and I have some issues with what you’ve claimed is what I believe.

I DO believe that God, Jesus and HG are separate beings - but that’s not that bizarre given how Jesus talks of his Father and the Spirit while he was on the Earth.

I DON’T believe that God begat Jesus in the flesh through physical intercourse with Mary - I’d like to know where you got that from. Obviously, some sort of physical change had to take place in Mary’s womb for her to become pregnant - but I think the scriptures are clear that the Holy Ghost was responsible for that quickening - which means it could NOT have been performed by physical intercourse (nor would that make sense to me anyway).

I DON’T believe that God is “physically” siring souls. He is “spiritually” siring souls - how else could he be our Heavenly Father, if he was not responsible for the creation of our souls?

I’m not sure that God was ever an imperfect being such as myself. But I do believe in eternal progression. I think Heaven would be pretty boring without something to do, and learn and grow. I believe he will always be my God, no matter how far I progress.

143

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Momonism is not polytheistic. God the Father is above all. He is the only one who possesses His qualities and power.[/quote]How many Gods are there?
[/quote]

Who knows? The only one that matters to us is our Heavenly Father (and Jesus and the Holy Ghost). If there are other universes with their own Gods - what does it matter to us?

144

[quote]pat wrote:

Jesus said we judge the tree by it’s fruit. Super Saiyan does not to be a sower of rotten fruit and therefore not a follower of satan.

The golden rule of evangelization is don’t evangelize to those who already believe, just not as you.
If you want to lead people to God, lead people who don’t believe and let God put them where he wants them.[/quote]

AMEN!!

145

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Momonism is not polytheistic. God the Father is above all. He is the only one who possesses His qualities and power.[/quote]How many Gods are there?
[/quote]

Who knows? The only one that matters to us is our Heavenly Father (and Jesus and the Holy Ghost). If there are other universes with their own Gods - what does it matter to us?[/quote]I rest my case

146

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Momonism is not polytheistic. God the Father is above all. He is the only one who possesses His qualities and power.[/quote]How many Gods are there?
[/quote]

Who knows? The only one that matters to us is our Heavenly Father (and Jesus and the Holy Ghost). If there are other universes with their own Gods - what does it matter to us?[/quote]I rest my case
[/quote]

What case?

147

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:

I worked chest and shoulders last night as well - and then it was time for bedtime stories etc., so I didn’t get back to this until today.

Yes, I am Mormon - but as with all who take their relationship with God seriously, there are always questions and refinements and doubts. I’m still working out what all this means - I don’t take any doctrine for granted (and neither should any Mormon - you can’t build a firm testimony without really examining everything with an open mind).

For me the infinite regress of gods is not a problem - because the concept of eternity is so foreign to us “flatlanders”. In other words, its a mystery we can’t fully understand because of the finite nature of the state we are in right now. But here’s my feeble attempt at an analogy: Just as there are larger and smaller infities in the mathematical world, it seems possible to me that God could be infinite and eternal, without beginning or end - and still have a God before him.

For me the existence of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost is evidence of the progression of gods. Jesus is part of the Godhood, yet he progressed and learned while in his mortality. He grew in wisdom (Luke 2), and in Gethsemane he needed the strengthening support of an angel.

I’ve always felt the traditional Christian concept of the Trinity didn’t make sense. Certainly, Jesus is one with God the Father in purpose - but by my reading of scripture he must be a completely separate being. Otherwise it would make no sense for him to pray, and especially to pray asking this cup to be removed from him, and no sense at all for him to say “Why hast Thou forsaken me?”. Why would God make a point of declaring that he was well pleased with his beloved son (Luke 3), unless Jesus had a separate will - and was capable of wanting to do something other than what God wanted him to do.
[/quote]
You know this was a very well though out and crafted response even though the both of us will most likely still disagree. Very brilliant bringing up cantor’s infinite infinity’s but I would still say that it begs the question and brings contingency into the mix.

I would be lying if I said I understood the trinity like the back of my hand but that’s is the only conclusion one can take from the scriptures with proper exegesis with multiple exclamations of there being only one God yet the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being God as well yet not denying the personhood of each one. The trinity is the concept that there is only one being who is God yet that being is shared by 3 eternally and coequal persons. It also answers impossible questions such as how can a being who is perfect in and of himself be loving in and of himself. An answer I give is that those things that are happening are a result of Jesus taking on human flesh and nature and him setting an example to us for how we should pray. Though I am not a calvinist I feel James White does an excellent presentation on the trinity should you feel interested in watching it.
[/quote]

I finally watched the whole thing. I’m glad it helps you with your faith, but it didn’t do anything for me. To me it just felt like word-play. He says God is 3 persons but one being. I guess it just boils down to definitions. To me, if there are 3 persons, then there are 3 beings.

I believe the Bible, and therefore there is only one God - but that God is personified by the Godhead - a council of 3 persons (I hesitate to use the word council, since that’s something us humans do - but its the closest mortal model). Since their unity of purpose is perfect, and their communication is perfect then they work far better than a human council can.

You say: God = 3 persons, one being
I say: God = 3 persons, one Godhead

If you (like James White) think that makes me (and Mormons as a whole) non-Christians, then I think that you are focusing on a pretty minor piece of God’s message to base your distnctions on. It occurred to me while I was writing this - that if He wanted us to understand the true nature of the Godhead, and how to best express it in our limited language - I think he would have spent more time talking about it in concrete terms. There probably just aren’t good mortal models to express the concepts of the true nature of the Godhead, and so He didn’t waste his time on it, and He would probably prefer we didn’t either.

Father, Son and Holy Ghost = One God - specifying it further just seems to divide people, and I don’t think that’s what He wants.

148

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.

149

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.
[/quote]

You bury your head in the sand on your own polytheism by claiming that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same person, despite the obvious logical contradictions of Jesus praying to the Father, having a physical body, and so on. Ignoring the contradictions doesn’t make them go away.

150

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.
[/quote]

You bury your head in the sand on your own polytheism by claiming that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same person, despite the obvious logical contradictions of Jesus praying to the Father, having a physical body, and so on. Ignoring the contradictions doesn’t make them go away.[/quote] I agree with this Athanasian Creed 1500 year old Christian creed agreed upon in substance by literally every single orthodox Christian communion in the history of the world. Catholic or Protestant. Our church is working with 500 others of every protestant flavor imaginable and we ALL, every last one agree on this. Because it’s like the unavoidably clear teaching of scripture n stuff like that.

I also go very much along with this… CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity … of all things very Catholic entry @ newadvent. It begins like with: “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion”. That is exactly right. It IS THE central doctrine without which there is NO biblical Christianity. He who hath the wrong god or gods hath none of Christ nor the saving gospel. Absolutely NOTHING could be clearer in scripture and he who coddles them does them no service who worship idols in place of the true and living God. I will not be thus guilty when standing to give an account of my deeds done on this earth.

151

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.
[/quote]

You bury your head in the sand on your own polytheism by claiming that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same person, despite the obvious logical contradictions of Jesus praying to the Father, having a physical body, and so on. Ignoring the contradictions doesn’t make them go away.[/quote] I agree with this Athanasian Creed 1500 year old Christian creed agreed upon in substance by literally every single orthodox Christian communion in the history of the world. Catholic or Protestant. Our church is working with 500 others of every protestant flavor imaginable and we ALL, every last one agree on this. Because it’s like the unavoidably clear teaching of scripture n stuff like that.
[/quote]

Appealing to majority opinion doesn’t make the logical contradictions go away either. At one point in time, the majority of people KNEW the world was flat.

You’re still polytheistic, you just have no answer for it.

152

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.
[/quote]

You bury your head in the sand on your own polytheism by claiming that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same person, despite the obvious logical contradictions of Jesus praying to the Father, having a physical body, and so on. Ignoring the contradictions doesn’t make them go away.[/quote] I agree with this Athanasian Creed 1500 year old Christian creed agreed upon in substance by literally every single orthodox Christian communion in the history of the world. Catholic or Protestant. Our church is working with 500 others of every protestant flavor imaginable and we ALL, every last one agree on this. Because it’s like the unavoidably clear teaching of scripture n stuff like that.
[/quote]

Appealing to majority opinion doesn’t make the logical contradictions go away either. At one point in time, the majority of people KNEW the world was flat.

You’re still polytheistic, you just have no answer for it.[/quote]I added some stuff:
I agree with this http://www.ccel.org/...sian.creed.html 1500 year old Christian creed agreed upon in substance by literally every single orthodox Christian communion in the history of the world. Catholic or Protestant. Our church is working with 500 others of every protestant flavor imaginable and we ALL, every last one agree on this. Because it’s like the unavoidably clear teaching of scripture n stuff like that.

I also go very much along with this… http://www.newadvent.org/...then/15047a.htm … of all things very Catholic entry @ newadvent. It begins with: “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion”. That is exactly right. It IS THE central doctrine without which there is NO biblical Christianity. He who hath the wrong god or gods hath none of Christ nor the saving gospel. Absolutely NOTHING could be clearer in scripture and he who coddles them does them no service who worship idols in place of the true and living God. I will not be thus guilty when standing to give an account of my deeds done on this earth.

There is no such thing as logic or contradiction according to you because both necessitate certainty which you have categorically denied. I, on the other hand by affirming absolute certainty in the God of whose divine nature I have been made a gratuitous partaker (2 Peter 1:4), CAN consistently uphold logic AND contradiction as a sure reality. By faith, just like you. Only your leads nowhere.

153

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.
[/quote]

You bury your head in the sand on your own polytheism by claiming that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same person, despite the obvious logical contradictions of Jesus praying to the Father, having a physical body, and so on. Ignoring the contradictions doesn’t make them go away.[/quote] I agree with this Athanasian Creed 1500 year old Christian creed agreed upon in substance by literally every single orthodox Christian communion in the history of the world. Catholic or Protestant. Our church is working with 500 others of every protestant flavor imaginable and we ALL, every last one agree on this. Because it’s like the unavoidably clear teaching of scripture n stuff like that.
[/quote]

Appealing to majority opinion doesn’t make the logical contradictions go away either. At one point in time, the majority of people KNEW the world was flat.

You’re still polytheistic, you just have no answer for it.[/quote]I added some stuff:
I agree with this http://www.ccel.org/...sian.creed.html 1500 year old Christian creed agreed upon in substance by literally every single orthodox Christian communion in the history of the world. Catholic or Protestant. Our church is working with 500 others of every protestant flavor imaginable and we ALL, every last one agree on this. Because it’s like the unavoidably clear teaching of scripture n stuff like that.

I also go very much along with this… http://www.newadvent.org/...then/15047a.htm … of all things very Catholic entry @ newadvent. It begins with: “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion”. That is exactly right. It IS THE central doctrine without which there is NO biblical Christianity. He who hath the wrong god or gods hath none of Christ nor the saving gospel. Absolutely NOTHING could be clearer in scripture and he who coddles them does them no service who worship idols in place of the true and living God. I will not be thus guilty when standing to give an account of my deeds done on this earth.

There is no such thing as logic or contradiction according to you because both necessitate certainty which you have categorically denied. I, on the other hand by affirming absolute certainty in the God of whose divine nature I have been made a gratuitous partaker (2 Peter 1:4), CAN consistently uphold logic AND contradiction as a sure reality. By faith, just like you. Only your leads nowhere.
[/quote]

You still didn’t address my point. The majority can get it wrong, as has been proven in the past, and appealing to the majority will get you nowhere.

Furthermore, the majority opinion you conditionally hang your hat on suffers from the same logical contradictions. You have even acknowledged these contradictions, telling Pat that it is logically contradictory to believe in a god that has a body and doesn’t have a body, yet is the same person.

Third, I find it ironic that you appeal to the majority to support your view of the Trinity, while disparaging the majority on other critical issues of doctrine, like free will. Can’t have it both ways.

Insisting that your faith is real doesn’t absolve you of logical contradictions, nor does it mean your faith reflects reality.

You have absolutely nothing to offer, not logic, not reason, not objective evidence, and not even spiritual testimony, in support of your beliefs, that Mormons and other religions can’t offer in kind.

154

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You have even acknowledged these contradictions, >>>[/quote]Only on the basis of sinful autonomous independent human logic. It is not possible that you will ever agree with the Christian world view short of the very new birth that if preaches and made it possible for me and every other true worshiper of the true God of the bible.

155

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You have even acknowledged these contradictions, >>>[/quote]Only on the basis of sinful autonomous independent human logic. It is not possible that you will ever agree with the Christian world view short of the very new birth that if preaches and made it possible for me and every other true worshiper of the true God of the bible.
[/quote]

That’s what I mean by burying your head in the sand. You dismiss the contradictions in your belief system as “sinful autonomous independent human logic”, while trying to use that same logic to criticize the beliefs of others, like Mormons and the Trinity.

Let’s cut to the chase.

Why should anyone believe you, when you have nothing to offer over what other religions have to offer? They have faith, they have received a spiritual witness, and they are 100% certain that they worship the true and living god.

You have nothing to offer that they don’t also offer. There is no reason to choose you over one of them.

156

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.
[/quote]

You bury your head in the sand on your own polytheism by claiming that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same person, despite the obvious logical contradictions of Jesus praying to the Father, having a physical body, and so on. Ignoring the contradictions doesn’t make them go away.[/quote] I agree with this Athanasian Creed 1500 year old Christian creed agreed upon in substance by literally every single orthodox Christian communion in the history of the world. Catholic or Protestant. Our church is working with 500 others of every protestant flavor imaginable and we ALL, every last one agree on this. Because it’s like the unavoidably clear teaching of scripture n stuff like that.

I also go very much along with this… CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity … of all things very Catholic entry @ newadvent. It begins like with: “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion”. That is exactly right. It IS THE central doctrine without which there is NO biblical Christianity. He who hath the wrong god or gods hath none of Christ nor the saving gospel. Absolutely NOTHING could be clearer in scripture and he who coddles them does them no service who worship idols in place of the true and living God. I will not be thus guilty when standing to give an account of my deeds done on this earth.
[/quote]

Deeds? I thought you believed in ‘faith alone’ salvation? Just sayin’ you said that yourself…

157

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< God’s message <<<[/quote]And what message would that be?
I’ll still get to my other friend here, but this first. [quote]Makavali wrote:<<< What case?[/quote]Mormonism IS polytheistic. Oh yes it is. I know better.
[/quote]

Dang it Trib, the practitioners of Mormonism have explained their beliefs to you and you continue to accuse them falsely of what they believe contrary to what they say.
You wouldn’t like it if it were done to you, I know because I did it, trying to show you how it feels. You don’t know how deeply, deeply offensive that is. Weâ??re are trying to discuss in good faith here, but when you accuse people’s strongest convictions of things that are not true and persist even when presented with evidence to the contrary, it in flames tempers.
Mormons and a former Mormon have all expressed that they believe in one God that their faith believes in one God. Please drop it, youâ??re insulting these people for no reason. They are not tools of Satan or polytheists.

158

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You dismiss the contradictions in your belief system as “sinful autonomous independent human logic”, while trying to use that same logic to criticize the beliefs of others, like Mormons and the Trinity. >>>[/quote]No, I dismiss finite sinful human autonomy in which logic is abused into alleging contradiction in the decrees of God. I’ll say again. I use logic all the time. It is a universal constant in that it reflects the mind of God and only by using it in self conscious submission to Him is it legitimately used at all. Mormonism is the most astonishing of all philosophical disasters that I have ever witnessed. You resolve your reality into a sad necrotic state of “I don’t actually know anything”. Fair eough. I insist that God resolves reality into His own alone non contingent self, but Mormons? They have, in a truly impressive manner turned reality into a flat down intellectual train wreck where even your uncertainty is consistent by comparison.

159

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Deeds? I thought you believed in ‘faith alone’ salvation? Just sayin’ you said that yourself…[/quote]Grace by faith alone indeed. My deeds will gain or cost me rewards not heaven… in a nutshell.

I’ll let somebody else address your defense of Mormonism for now.

160

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< You dismiss the contradictions in your belief system as “sinful autonomous independent human logic”, while trying to use that same logic to criticize the beliefs of others, like Mormons and the Trinity. >>>[/quote]No, I dismiss finite sinful human autonomy in which logic is abused into alleging contradiction in the decrees of God. I’ll say again. I use logic all the time. It is a universal constant in that it reflects the mind of God and only by using it in self conscious submission to Him is it legitimately used at all. Mormonism is the most astonishing of all philosophical disasters that I have ever witnessed. You resolve your reality into a sad necrotic state of “I don’t actually know anything”. Fair eough. I insist that God resolves reality into His own alone non contingent self, but Mormons? They have, in a truly impressive manner turned reality into a flat down intellectual train wreck where even your uncertainty is consistent by comparison.
[/quote]

You’re still dodging the big question:

WHY should someone choose your particular beliefs over those of another faith?

They have as much evidence, logic, reason, and supportive spiritual testimony as you do.

Don’t you get it yet?

God has told you that you worship the real god.

God has told Mormons that they worship the real god.

God has told Catholics that they worship the real god.

So who is right and how does one know?