[quote]forlife wrote:<<< They say the same thing about you. Who is right?[/quote]The witness of the Spirit of God over 2000 years of church history where there is virtually universal agreement on a bizarre doctrine that no man would be motivated to come up with on his own. The most widely accepted doctrine in all of Christendom for 2 millenia. EVERYBODY agrees on this except a few fringe newcomers. Why? Because it really IS that clear in the bible which was God’s plan seein how He commanded us not to have other Gods n all.
He was quite clear in the new covenant revelation about His own nature. Even in the old once you see it in light of the new. People can and do believe whatever they want, but I will not stand and silently allow my God to be blasphemed by ALLEGED WORSHIPERS of His. Pagans are one thing. They’re not claiming to represent Him, but when the name of Christ Jesus is associated with damnable heresy or practice it is the Christian’s duty to contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3) Not try to find a way to make all the universe OK regardless of how plainly they are condemned in scripture.
[/quote]
Funny, I never read that Mormons are condemned in scripture. Verse please?
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Christ Himself said that God was greater than Him.[/quote]He said the Father was greater than Him. Not God. An in His earthly incarnation He was. Look fiend. This is well and long established. Even most rank God hating liberal scholars of the New Testament know that they are confronted with a fully divine and co-eternal Jesus there. They just don’t believe it regardless of what it says.
[/quote]“Why callest thou me good? There is none good, but one, that is God.”
Here He clearly refers to God, but is also clearly not referring to Himself.[/quote]I thought you were referring to John 14:28 where He says:
[quote]“You heard that I said to you, “I go away, and I will come to you.” If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,” [/quote] Instead you were referring to an incomplete piece of Mark 10:17-18 (also Luke 18:19) which says:
[quote]17-As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18-And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. [/quote]What’s ironic here is that Jesus is actually affirming His own deity here in a round about way. (which yes He did do). The man calls Him “good teacher” indicating merely a wise man and the Lord responds by telling Him in essence "if all you believe I am is a “teacher” (rabbi) them why are you calling me good as God alone is good. (also by inescapable implication a statement of the universal badness of mankind). He claims His own goodness everywhere.
Read the Athanasian creed I linked to Athanasian Creed . THAT IS the God of the bible as He has revealed Himself to us. Those early councils and creeds were for the very purpose of establishing a foundation early to avoid utterly foundational heresy on somewhat important things like who and what God is.
Look friend, I don’t know what else to tell ya. Joseph Smith Jr. was a known crackpot schemer where he was from. This was not his first goofball plot for attention… or second… or third. This one just happened to work beyond his wildest dreams. That’s why He took them to Ohio. He had to get away from where everybody knew him. He went from laughingstock to full on charlatan once he figured out he could get fame, money AND laid all in the same package. This is recent history man. Documented to the hilt. How well I know I read ALL of it.
I am going to give you another chance to be honest like your homey here whose name escapes me at the moment. I am asking you again. HOW MANY GODS ARE THERE? Now hold on. I did NOT ask, how many gods WE have to do with or how many are our father or which one is the greatest. I didn’t ask nunna that. I did ask HOW MANY GODS… ALTOGETHER ARE THERE? Your friend says, to his credit, “who knows”. Now before I have to pull your pants down in front of all these nice people with documentation I have waiting at the ready, please tell us. HOW MANY GODS ARE THERE?[/quote]
I have no doubt you have quotes at the ready from early church members. But again, what you keep choosing to ignore is that not every statement made by a prophet or apostle is official church doctrine. We do not believe that any man is perfect or infallible, and that includes prophets and apostles. Do you not think there are statements out there by early Christians that you would disagree with and do not fit in with the doctrine you believe?
Now about the reputation of Joseph Smith. Some of his misdeeds are clearly embellished and some outright made up. What was the reputation of Christ and Christ’s disciples in His time among nonbelievers? Now, do I think that Joseph Smith could have done some questionable things in his lifetime? It’s very possible. However, does that prevent a person from later becoming committed to a cause of God’s choosing? Tell me what Paul (Saul) was doing before his conversion. Does his pre-conversion treatment of Christ’s disciples automatically disqualify anything he did, wrote, or said after his conversion? I think you would agree it does not.
Now to the main question; the question which you apparently mashed out on your keyboard, while foaming at the mouth. (You do come across as quite angry sometimes.) How many gods are there? This question poses problems from the start because you won’t accept that there can be a belief in gods without blaspheming THE God. One thing you have to realize is that the idea of gods in Mormon theology does not place those gods on the same level as the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost. Your quarrel with the idea seems to be with the term itself rather than the idea behind the term. Perhaps a better word could be chosen, but in any case, the belief of other inferior, lesser gods, who are NOT worshiped by us, in no way diminishes the greatness of THE God.
So could there be other lesser gods subject to God’s will and who received everything they are and have from Him? Yes, and you have no Biblical support to contradict this assertion.
========================================
Paul taught the Corinthians,
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."18
Now, while some would say that Paul is talking about worshiping “idols,” because he mentions that “an idol is nothing in the world,” in the previous verse. It is clear, however, that Paul makes the distinction in verse 5. He says that while there are those that are “called gods,” it is true, but he clarifies and distinguishes his meaning in two separate ways.
First, Paul follows this statement, referring to those that are called gods, with the words, “whether in heaven or in earth…” Now, I have never seen heaven, but I do not expect to find any idols there for people to worship as gods. So, while “idols” may indeed be inclusive in those that are “called gods,” it is by no means an exclusive term, with the qualifier that follows.
Secondly, Paul acknowledges that “there be gods many, and lords many.” Then he brings the point home, by saying “to us,” however, “there is but one God” and “one Lord.” He clarifies his point: We are only to worship one God, not many gods, although they do exist. We only follow one Lord, not many Lords, although they do exist.
One other item of note regarding Paul’s clarification regarding the existence of “other gods.” It is important to notice what Paul did not say. He did not say that “there be many false gods and false lords,” but “gods many and lords many.” It would seem that if Paul was referring to “false” gods in this passage, he would have clarified such.
Now, this recognition of many gods was not new to Paul. He said nothing new here. Paul’s scriptures, the Old Testament, were replete with references to many gods, to which God was God.
"Who is like unto thee, 0 LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness fearful in praises, doing wonders?"19
"The LORD your God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great god, a mighty…"20
"The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth…"21
"The house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods"22
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods"23
"Among the gods there is none like unto thee, 0 Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works"24
"The Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods"25
"I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods"26
And so it is. The Old Testament and the New Testament are consistent in proclaiming the existence of multiple “gods.” However, Latter-day Saints do not recognize any other god as “our God.” “To us, there is but one God, the Father,” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ.” See, our God is the “God of gods.”
So, is the position of The Church of Jesus Christ biblical? Absolutely! Why would anyone want to exclude a religious group (one that regards the Bible as the word of God and believes in Jesus of Nazareth) from Christianity based upon a clear biblical teaching?
And does this make Mormons polytheistic? Not unless they started worshiping other Gods, which is not the case. We place no other god before God, as commanded in Exodus 20:3.
We could get into a long (and frankly boring) philosophical discussion regarding definitions of polytheism (worship of multiple gods), monotheism (worship of one god), and henotheism (acknowledging many gods while worshiping only one god, who is above all gods…this one is also debatable). But, rather than going that route, I believe it is sufficient, considering the above passages, that The Church of Jesus Christ’s acknowledgement of multiple gods, while worshiping one god, our God, is certainly a biblical teaching.
So how many TRUE Gods are there? Sorry I forgot who I was talkin to. Jesus is or is not THE god. The Holy Spirit is or is not THE God. Are you one day going to be THE God to somebody else? Any chance of simple yes or no answers with you? Here, I’ll go first. One true God. The Father Is that God, the Son IS that God and the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost, same person. or are they to you?) IS that God.
They are however 3 distinct persons. To quote the creed: “neither confounding the persons no dividing the substance”. I have no idea how that works, but it is absolutely the teaching of the system of thought contained in the actual Word of the one true and living God. Agree or disagree?
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Christ Himself said that God was greater than Him.[/quote]He said the Father was greater than Him. Not God. An in His earthly incarnation He was. Look fiend. This is well and long established. Even most rank God hating liberal scholars of the New Testament know that they are confronted with a fully divine and co-eternal Jesus there. They just don’t believe it regardless of what it says.
[/quote]“Why callest thou me good? There is none good, but one, that is God.”
Here He clearly refers to God, but is also clearly not referring to Himself.[/quote]I thought you were referring to John 14:28 where He says:
[quote]“You heard that I said to you, “I go away, and I will come to you.” If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,” [/quote] Instead you were referring to an incomplete piece of Mark 10:17-18 (also Luke 18:19) which says:
[quote]17-As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18-And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. [/quote]What’s ironic here is that Jesus is actually affirming His own deity here in a round about way. (which yes He did do). The man calls Him “good teacher” indicating merely a wise man and the Lord responds by telling Him in essence "if all you believe I am is a “teacher” (rabbi) them why are you calling me good as God alone is good. (also by inescapable implication a statement of the universal badness of mankind). He claims His own goodness everywhere.
Read the Athanasian creed I linked to Athanasian Creed . THAT IS the God of the bible as He has revealed Himself to us. Those early councils and creeds were for the very purpose of establishing a foundation early to avoid utterly foundational heresy on somewhat important things like who and what God is.
Look friend, I don’t know what else to tell ya. Joseph Smith Jr. was a known crackpot schemer where he was from. This was not his first goofball plot for attention… or second… or third. This one just happened to work beyond his wildest dreams. That’s why He took them to Ohio. He had to get away from where everybody knew him. He went from laughingstock to full on charlatan once he figured out he could get fame, money AND laid all in the same package. This is recent history man. Documented to the hilt. How well I know I read ALL of it.
I am going to give you another chance to be honest like your homey here whose name escapes me at the moment. I am asking you again. HOW MANY GODS ARE THERE? Now hold on. I did NOT ask, how many gods WE have to do with or how many are our father or which one is the greatest. I didn’t ask nunna that. I did ask HOW MANY GODS… ALTOGETHER ARE THERE? Your friend says, to his credit, “who knows”. Now before I have to pull your pants down in front of all these nice people with documentation I have waiting at the ready, please tell us. HOW MANY GODS ARE THERE?[/quote]
I have no doubt you have quotes at the ready from early church members. But again, what you keep choosing to ignore is that not every statement made by a prophet or apostle is official church doctrine. We do not believe that any man is perfect or infallible, and that includes prophets and apostles. Do you not think there are statements out there by early Christians that you would disagree with and do not fit in with the doctrine you believe?
Now about the reputation of Joseph Smith. Some of his misdeeds are clearly embellished and some outright made up. What was the reputation of Christ and Christ’s disciples in His time among nonbelievers? Now, do I think that Joseph Smith could have done some questionable things in his lifetime? It’s very possible. However, does that prevent a person from later becoming committed to a cause of God’s choosing? Tell me what Paul (Saul) was doing before his conversion. Does his pre-conversion treatment of Christ’s disciples automatically disqualify anything he did, wrote, or said after his conversion? I think you would agree it does not.
Now to the main question; the question which you apparently mashed out on your keyboard, while foaming at the mouth. (You do come across as quite angry sometimes.) How many gods are there? This question poses problems from the start because you won’t accept that there can be a belief in gods without blaspheming THE God. One thing you have to realize is that the idea of gods in Mormon theology does not place those gods on the same level as the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost. Your quarrel with the idea seems to be with the term itself rather than the idea behind the term. Perhaps a better word could be chosen, but in any case, the belief of other inferior, lesser gods, who are NOT worshiped by us, in no way diminishes the greatness of THE God.
So could there be other lesser gods subject to God’s will and who received everything they are and have from Him? Yes, and you have no Biblical support to contradict this assertion.
========================================
Paul taught the Corinthians,
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."18
Now, while some would say that Paul is talking about worshiping “idols,” because he mentions that “an idol is nothing in the world,” in the previous verse. It is clear, however, that Paul makes the distinction in verse 5. He says that while there are those that are “called gods,” it is true, but he clarifies and distinguishes his meaning in two separate ways.
First, Paul follows this statement, referring to those that are called gods, with the words, “whether in heaven or in earth…” Now, I have never seen heaven, but I do not expect to find any idols there for people to worship as gods. So, while “idols” may indeed be inclusive in those that are “called gods,” it is by no means an exclusive term, with the qualifier that follows.
Secondly, Paul acknowledges that “there be gods many, and lords many.” Then he brings the point home, by saying “to us,” however, “there is but one God” and “one Lord.” He clarifies his point: We are only to worship one God, not many gods, although they do exist. We only follow one Lord, not many Lords, although they do exist.
One other item of note regarding Paul’s clarification regarding the existence of “other gods.” It is important to notice what Paul did not say. He did not say that “there be many false gods and false lords,” but “gods many and lords many.” It would seem that if Paul was referring to “false” gods in this passage, he would have clarified such.
Now, this recognition of many gods was not new to Paul. He said nothing new here. Paul’s scriptures, the Old Testament, were replete with references to many gods, to which God was God.
"Who is like unto thee, 0 LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness fearful in praises, doing wonders?"19
"The LORD your God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great god, a mighty…"20
"The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth…"21
"The house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods"22
"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods"23
"Among the gods there is none like unto thee, 0 Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works"24
"The Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods"25
"I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods"26
And so it is. The Old Testament and the New Testament are consistent in proclaiming the existence of multiple “gods.” However, Latter-day Saints do not recognize any other god as “our God.” “To us, there is but one God, the Father,” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ.” See, our God is the “God of gods.”
So, is the position of The Church of Jesus Christ biblical? Absolutely! Why would anyone want to exclude a religious group (one that regards the Bible as the word of God and believes in Jesus of Nazareth) from Christianity based upon a clear biblical teaching?
And does this make Mormons polytheistic? Not unless they started worshiping other Gods, which is not the case. We place no other god before God, as commanded in Exodus 20:3.
We could get into a long (and frankly boring) philosophical discussion regarding definitions of polytheism (worship of multiple gods), monotheism (worship of one god), and henotheism (acknowledging many gods while worshiping only one god, who is above all gods…this one is also debatable). But, rather than going that route, I believe it is sufficient, considering the above passages, that The Church of Jesus Christ’s acknowledgement of multiple gods, while worshiping one god, our God, is certainly a biblical teaching.
18 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.
19 Exodus 15:11.
20 Deuteronomy 10:17.
21 Joshua 22:22.
22 2 Chronicles 2:5.
23 Psalms 82:1.
24 Psalms 86:8.
25 Psalms 95:3.
26 Psalms 135:5.
========================================[/quote]
I have no desire to disparage your faith; feel free to ignore even this post if you like. But as a devout Mormon for many years, I believed I had a solid grasp of LDS history and doctrine. I came to a point in my life where I was willing to question whether my testimony, informed by direct divine inspiration, was what I had always believed it to be. I sincerely researched my questions, and integrity eventually forced me to reevaluate my convictions.
I now believe that I was never divinely inspired. I believed I was at the time, of course. I KNEW that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Christ was my Savior. God had spoken to me, or so I deeply believed and testified. I was utterly convinced, as thoroughly as my friend Tiribulus is convinced, that I had the TRUTH. Because I’ve been there, I know how deeply poignant, personal, and meaningful it is, and I understand why people defend their faith so fervently. I also know how easy it is to KNOW things are true, when in fact they are not true.
Thomas Jefferson was right. Faith can lead people astray, without them having the slightest suspicion that they are off course. As limited as science, logic, and reason are, they are the best tools we have for knowing what is real.
On Mormonism, I identified 20 concerns, and gathered the best evidence for and against those concerns. I would say my biggest 3 were:
Emotionality as evidence (see my comments on faith above)
Joseph Smith told faithful priesthood holders that it was God’s will for them to give their wives to Joseph
The Book of Abraham was proven to be a fraud, once the Rosetta Stone allowed us to translate Egyptian. Apologists offer many explanations for this, but they are incredibly contorted, and in any case I could never find an explanation for the blatant fabrications of the Facsimiles, most notably plagiarizing the Small Sensen text to fill in missing portions of Facsimile No. 2.
All of that said, I say the same thing to you that I say to Tiribulus or any other believer: If your faith makes you happy and provides purpose in your life, that is great and I wish you the best.
I would venture to say that if ANY religion put their beliefs under the same microsope that they seem to put other peoples’ beliefs under…that they would find just as many, (if not more), “discrepancies”.
I certainly don’t understand all the things you guys are arguing; but I do have a couple of close friends who are Latter Day Saints. (a name which they seem to prefer).
From my observations, I can’t think of any Religion that has had their belief’s challenged in more organized ways…from books, movies, forums and Blogs…to actual “Ministries”.
I don’t think that I’ll ever understand the time and effort people will use to discredit someone else’s beliefs.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
So how many TRUE Gods are there? Sorry I forgot who I was talkin to. Jesus is or is not THE god. The Holy Spirit is or is not THE God. Are you one day going to be THE God to somebody else? Any chance of simple yes or no answers with you? Here, I’ll go first. One true God. The Father Is that God, the Son IS that God and the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost, same person. or are they to you?) IS that God.
They are however 3 distinct persons. To quote the creed: “neither confounding the persons no dividing the substance”. I have no idea how that works, but it is absolutely the teaching of the system of thought contained in the actual Word of the one true and living God. Agree or disagree?[/quote]
Disagree, obviously. You know we don’t believe in the Trinity, so why ask again? Hevenly Father is one being. Jesus Christ is a separate being. The Holy Ghost/Spirit is another. They are each separate beings with different roles, who are one in purpose, and together make up the Godhead. They are not equal (e.g., the Holy Ghost is not equal to the Father). Did you not read my response above? It contains the answer to your first question. And sorry I can’t provide a short, simple answer to explain the mysteries of God.
The Bible absolutely does NOT clearly teach the Trinity. If it did, there wouldn’t have been any debate about it before the Council decided it was so.
You said nothing to address the point of other lesser gods in my previous post. The fact that you continue to dwell on it is silly anyway because it’s not important. You will rarely find any discussion of it in any Mormon church on Sunday. First, we don’t have a clear and definite understanding of how it all works; and second, it’s not an important doctrine. Like I said before, read the recent General Conference talks given by the general authorities in our church.
They teach the most important things relevant to our salvation. Whether there are lesser gods out there just isn’t important to my personal salvation. What they teach is important. They preach about the Atonement of Christ, repentance, prayer, scripture study, being humble and aligning our will that of God’s, living a morally clean life, seeking guidance from the Holy Ghost, serving and being charitable to others, exercising faith, desiring to do good and abstaining from unholy activities, how to be a true disciple of Christ, how to have a Christ-centered home, how to teach your children to love and serve and God and avoid the traps of sin.
They don’t talk about the things you like to argue about because it would be a waste of time to discuss things we don’t fully understand. They discuss the things that will draw us closer to Christ.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have no desire to disparage your faith; feel free to ignore even this post if you like. But as a devout Mormon for many years, I believed I had a solid grasp of LDS history and doctrine. I came to a point in my life where I was willing to question whether my testimony, informed by direct divine inspiration, was what I had always believed it to be. I sincerely researched my questions, and integrity eventually forced me to reevaluate my convictions.
I now believe that I was never divinely inspired. I believed I was at the time, of course. I KNEW that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Christ was my Savior. God had spoken to me, or so I deeply believed and testified. I was utterly convinced, as thoroughly as my friend Tiribulus is convinced, that I had the TRUTH. Because I’ve been there, I know how deeply poignant, personal, and meaningful it is, and I understand why people defend their faith so fervently. I also know how easy it is to KNOW things are true, when in fact they are not true.
Thomas Jefferson was right. Faith can lead people astray, without them having the slightest suspicion that they are off course. As limited as science, logic, and reason are, they are the best tools we have for knowing what is real.
On Mormonism, I identified 20 concerns, and gathered the best evidence for and against those concerns. I would say my biggest 3 were:
Emotionality as evidence (see my comments on faith above)
Joseph Smith told faithful priesthood holders that it was God’s will for them to give their wives to Joseph
The Book of Abraham was proven to be a fraud, once the Rosetta Stone allowed us to translate Egyptian. Apologists offer many explanations for this, but they are incredibly contorted, and in any case I could never find an explanation for the blatant fabrications of the Facsimiles, most notably plagiarizing the Small Sensen text to fill in missing portions of Facsimile No. 2.
All of that said, I say the same thing to you that I say to Tiribulus or any other believer: If your faith makes you happy and provides purpose in your life, that is great and I wish you the best.[/quote]
Like I said in an earlier post, I was not an active member for quite some time and even waded through a lot of anti-Mormon literature. I won’t pretend there aren’t issues that don’t have easy answers. Some of my concerns have been resolved as I have studied and learned more. Some concerns may never be answered in this lifetime.
All I can say is that there is a reason why the church focuses on the topics they do - they are the things that draw us toward Christ. The more I have prayed and studied the scriptures, the stronger my testimony grows. I have had a couple of other experiences happen to me that have greatly strengthened my faith. They are things I generally don’t share with others, especially on an internet forum.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want answers to troubling questions, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everything to be answered or understood logically. Remember that faith is one of the fundamental principles of the gospel.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have no desire to disparage your faith; feel free to ignore even this post if you like. But as a devout Mormon for many years, I believed I had a solid grasp of LDS history and doctrine. I came to a point in my life where I was willing to question whether my testimony, informed by direct divine inspiration, was what I had always believed it to be. I sincerely researched my questions, and integrity eventually forced me to reevaluate my convictions.
I now believe that I was never divinely inspired. I believed I was at the time, of course. I KNEW that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Christ was my Savior. God had spoken to me, or so I deeply believed and testified. I was utterly convinced, as thoroughly as my friend Tiribulus is convinced, that I had the TRUTH. Because I’ve been there, I know how deeply poignant, personal, and meaningful it is, and I understand why people defend their faith so fervently. I also know how easy it is to KNOW things are true, when in fact they are not true.
Thomas Jefferson was right. Faith can lead people astray, without them having the slightest suspicion that they are off course. As limited as science, logic, and reason are, they are the best tools we have for knowing what is real.
On Mormonism, I identified 20 concerns, and gathered the best evidence for and against those concerns. I would say my biggest 3 were:
Emotionality as evidence (see my comments on faith above)
Joseph Smith told faithful priesthood holders that it was God’s will for them to give their wives to Joseph
The Book of Abraham was proven to be a fraud, once the Rosetta Stone allowed us to translate Egyptian. Apologists offer many explanations for this, but they are incredibly contorted, and in any case I could never find an explanation for the blatant fabrications of the Facsimiles, most notably plagiarizing the Small Sensen text to fill in missing portions of Facsimile No. 2.
All of that said, I say the same thing to you that I say to Tiribulus or any other believer: If your faith makes you happy and provides purpose in your life, that is great and I wish you the best.[/quote]
Like I said in an earlier post, I was not an active member for quite some time and even waded through a lot of anti-Mormon literature. I won’t pretend there aren’t issues that don’t have easy answers. Some of my concerns have been resolved as I have studied and learned more. Some concerns may never be answered in this lifetime.
All I can say is that there is a reason why the church focuses on the topics they do - they are the things that draw us toward Christ. The more I have prayed and studied the scriptures, the stronger my testimony grows. I have had a couple of other experiences happen to me that have greatly strengthened my faith. They are things I generally don’t share with others, especially on an internet forum.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want answers to troubling questions, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everything to be answered or understood logically. Remember that faith is one of the fundamental principles of the gospel.[/quote]
Unless you are willing to question the testimony itself, no amount of logic , reason, or evidence will make any difference.
For me, the key was realizing that people of many other faiths had the same deep spiritual witness that I had, yet believed core doctrines that were contradictory to those god had told me were true. Clearly, people can be abysmally mistaken about god speaking to them. If it could be true for others, I had to admit it could be true for my own beliefs as well.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have no desire to disparage your faith; feel free to ignore even this post if you like. But as a devout Mormon for many years, I believed I had a solid grasp of LDS history and doctrine. I came to a point in my life where I was willing to question whether my testimony, informed by direct divine inspiration, was what I had always believed it to be. I sincerely researched my questions, and integrity eventually forced me to reevaluate my convictions.
I now believe that I was never divinely inspired. I believed I was at the time, of course. I KNEW that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Christ was my Savior. God had spoken to me, or so I deeply believed and testified. I was utterly convinced, as thoroughly as my friend Tiribulus is convinced, that I had the TRUTH. Because I’ve been there, I know how deeply poignant, personal, and meaningful it is, and I understand why people defend their faith so fervently. I also know how easy it is to KNOW things are true, when in fact they are not true.
Thomas Jefferson was right. Faith can lead people astray, without them having the slightest suspicion that they are off course. As limited as science, logic, and reason are, they are the best tools we have for knowing what is real.
On Mormonism, I identified 20 concerns, and gathered the best evidence for and against those concerns. I would say my biggest 3 were:
Emotionality as evidence (see my comments on faith above)
Joseph Smith told faithful priesthood holders that it was God’s will for them to give their wives to Joseph
The Book of Abraham was proven to be a fraud, once the Rosetta Stone allowed us to translate Egyptian. Apologists offer many explanations for this, but they are incredibly contorted, and in any case I could never find an explanation for the blatant fabrications of the Facsimiles, most notably plagiarizing the Small Sensen text to fill in missing portions of Facsimile No. 2.
All of that said, I say the same thing to you that I say to Tiribulus or any other believer: If your faith makes you happy and provides purpose in your life, that is great and I wish you the best.[/quote]
Like I said in an earlier post, I was not an active member for quite some time and even waded through a lot of anti-Mormon literature. I won’t pretend there aren’t issues that don’t have easy answers. Some of my concerns have been resolved as I have studied and learned more. Some concerns may never be answered in this lifetime.
All I can say is that there is a reason why the church focuses on the topics they do - they are the things that draw us toward Christ. The more I have prayed and studied the scriptures, the stronger my testimony grows. I have had a couple of other experiences happen to me that have greatly strengthened my faith. They are things I generally don’t share with others, especially on an internet forum.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want answers to troubling questions, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everything to be answered or understood logically. Remember that faith is one of the fundamental principles of the gospel.[/quote]
Unless you are willing to question the testimony itself, no amount of logic , reason, or evidence will make any difference.
For me, the key was realizing that people of many other faiths had the same deep spiritual witness that I had, yet believed core doctrines that were contradictory to those god had told me were true. Clearly, people can be abysmally mistaken about god speaking to them. If it could be true for others, I had to admit it could be true for my own beliefs as well.[/quote]
I agree, your faith should be able to stand up to legitimate scrutiny (I.E. not hateful bullshit people want to make up). If it does not, it’s worth reevaluating what you believe, why you believe it; and be honest with yourself in the process.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have no desire to disparage your faith; feel free to ignore even this post if you like. But as a devout Mormon for many years, I believed I had a solid grasp of LDS history and doctrine. I came to a point in my life where I was willing to question whether my testimony, informed by direct divine inspiration, was what I had always believed it to be. I sincerely researched my questions, and integrity eventually forced me to reevaluate my convictions.
I now believe that I was never divinely inspired. I believed I was at the time, of course. I KNEW that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Christ was my Savior. God had spoken to me, or so I deeply believed and testified. I was utterly convinced, as thoroughly as my friend Tiribulus is convinced, that I had the TRUTH. Because I’ve been there, I know how deeply poignant, personal, and meaningful it is, and I understand why people defend their faith so fervently. I also know how easy it is to KNOW things are true, when in fact they are not true.
Thomas Jefferson was right. Faith can lead people astray, without them having the slightest suspicion that they are off course. As limited as science, logic, and reason are, they are the best tools we have for knowing what is real.
On Mormonism, I identified 20 concerns, and gathered the best evidence for and against those concerns. I would say my biggest 3 were:
Emotionality as evidence (see my comments on faith above)
Joseph Smith told faithful priesthood holders that it was God’s will for them to give their wives to Joseph
The Book of Abraham was proven to be a fraud, once the Rosetta Stone allowed us to translate Egyptian. Apologists offer many explanations for this, but they are incredibly contorted, and in any case I could never find an explanation for the blatant fabrications of the Facsimiles, most notably plagiarizing the Small Sensen text to fill in missing portions of Facsimile No. 2.
All of that said, I say the same thing to you that I say to Tiribulus or any other believer: If your faith makes you happy and provides purpose in your life, that is great and I wish you the best.[/quote]
Like I said in an earlier post, I was not an active member for quite some time and even waded through a lot of anti-Mormon literature. I won’t pretend there aren’t issues that don’t have easy answers. Some of my concerns have been resolved as I have studied and learned more. Some concerns may never be answered in this lifetime.
All I can say is that there is a reason why the church focuses on the topics they do - they are the things that draw us toward Christ. The more I have prayed and studied the scriptures, the stronger my testimony grows. I have had a couple of other experiences happen to me that have greatly strengthened my faith. They are things I generally don’t share with others, especially on an internet forum.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want answers to troubling questions, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everything to be answered or understood logically. Remember that faith is one of the fundamental principles of the gospel.[/quote]
Unless you are willing to question the testimony itself, no amount of logic , reason, or evidence will make any difference.
For me, the key was realizing that people of many other faiths had the same deep spiritual witness that I had, yet believed core doctrines that were contradictory to those god had told me were true. Clearly, people can be abysmally mistaken about god speaking to them. If it could be true for others, I had to admit it could be true for my own beliefs as well.[/quote]
So are you saying that because many people think they are right that nobody is right? And I would be careful about judging how strong somebody else’s faith is. Can you really say that your spiritual testimony was as strong as you thought if you lost it?
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have no desire to disparage your faith; feel free to ignore even this post if you like. But as a devout Mormon for many years, I believed I had a solid grasp of LDS history and doctrine. I came to a point in my life where I was willing to question whether my testimony, informed by direct divine inspiration, was what I had always believed it to be. I sincerely researched my questions, and integrity eventually forced me to reevaluate my convictions.
I now believe that I was never divinely inspired. I believed I was at the time, of course. I KNEW that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Christ was my Savior. God had spoken to me, or so I deeply believed and testified. I was utterly convinced, as thoroughly as my friend Tiribulus is convinced, that I had the TRUTH. Because I’ve been there, I know how deeply poignant, personal, and meaningful it is, and I understand why people defend their faith so fervently. I also know how easy it is to KNOW things are true, when in fact they are not true.
Thomas Jefferson was right. Faith can lead people astray, without them having the slightest suspicion that they are off course. As limited as science, logic, and reason are, they are the best tools we have for knowing what is real.
On Mormonism, I identified 20 concerns, and gathered the best evidence for and against those concerns. I would say my biggest 3 were:
Emotionality as evidence (see my comments on faith above)
Joseph Smith told faithful priesthood holders that it was God’s will for them to give their wives to Joseph
The Book of Abraham was proven to be a fraud, once the Rosetta Stone allowed us to translate Egyptian. Apologists offer many explanations for this, but they are incredibly contorted, and in any case I could never find an explanation for the blatant fabrications of the Facsimiles, most notably plagiarizing the Small Sensen text to fill in missing portions of Facsimile No. 2.
All of that said, I say the same thing to you that I say to Tiribulus or any other believer: If your faith makes you happy and provides purpose in your life, that is great and I wish you the best.[/quote]
Like I said in an earlier post, I was not an active member for quite some time and even waded through a lot of anti-Mormon literature. I won’t pretend there aren’t issues that don’t have easy answers. Some of my concerns have been resolved as I have studied and learned more. Some concerns may never be answered in this lifetime.
All I can say is that there is a reason why the church focuses on the topics they do - they are the things that draw us toward Christ. The more I have prayed and studied the scriptures, the stronger my testimony grows. I have had a couple of other experiences happen to me that have greatly strengthened my faith. They are things I generally don’t share with others, especially on an internet forum.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want answers to troubling questions, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everything to be answered or understood logically. Remember that faith is one of the fundamental principles of the gospel.[/quote]
Unless you are willing to question the testimony itself, no amount of logic , reason, or evidence will make any difference.
For me, the key was realizing that people of many other faiths had the same deep spiritual witness that I had, yet believed core doctrines that were contradictory to those god had told me were true. Clearly, people can be abysmally mistaken about god speaking to them. If it could be true for others, I had to admit it could be true for my own beliefs as well.[/quote]
I agree, your faith should be able to stand up to legitimate scrutiny (I.E. not hateful bullshit people want to make up). If it does not, it’s worth reevaluating what you believe, why you believe it; and be honest with yourself in the process.[/quote]
Even if it does, it’s worth reevaluating what you believe, why you believe it, and being honest with yourself in the process.
My bullshit detector goes off anytime someone claims they KNOW the truth, and refuses to acknowledge that they might be wrong. I don’t care how much praying, scripture studying, science, logic, and reasoning they’ve applied to their beliefs: If they insist they MUST be right, I guarantee confirmatory bias is at work.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have no desire to disparage your faith; feel free to ignore even this post if you like. But as a devout Mormon for many years, I believed I had a solid grasp of LDS history and doctrine. I came to a point in my life where I was willing to question whether my testimony, informed by direct divine inspiration, was what I had always believed it to be. I sincerely researched my questions, and integrity eventually forced me to reevaluate my convictions.
I now believe that I was never divinely inspired. I believed I was at the time, of course. I KNEW that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that Christ was my Savior. God had spoken to me, or so I deeply believed and testified. I was utterly convinced, as thoroughly as my friend Tiribulus is convinced, that I had the TRUTH. Because I’ve been there, I know how deeply poignant, personal, and meaningful it is, and I understand why people defend their faith so fervently. I also know how easy it is to KNOW things are true, when in fact they are not true.
Thomas Jefferson was right. Faith can lead people astray, without them having the slightest suspicion that they are off course. As limited as science, logic, and reason are, they are the best tools we have for knowing what is real.
On Mormonism, I identified 20 concerns, and gathered the best evidence for and against those concerns. I would say my biggest 3 were:
Emotionality as evidence (see my comments on faith above)
Joseph Smith told faithful priesthood holders that it was God’s will for them to give their wives to Joseph
The Book of Abraham was proven to be a fraud, once the Rosetta Stone allowed us to translate Egyptian. Apologists offer many explanations for this, but they are incredibly contorted, and in any case I could never find an explanation for the blatant fabrications of the Facsimiles, most notably plagiarizing the Small Sensen text to fill in missing portions of Facsimile No. 2.
All of that said, I say the same thing to you that I say to Tiribulus or any other believer: If your faith makes you happy and provides purpose in your life, that is great and I wish you the best.[/quote]
Like I said in an earlier post, I was not an active member for quite some time and even waded through a lot of anti-Mormon literature. I won’t pretend there aren’t issues that don’t have easy answers. Some of my concerns have been resolved as I have studied and learned more. Some concerns may never be answered in this lifetime.
All I can say is that there is a reason why the church focuses on the topics they do - they are the things that draw us toward Christ. The more I have prayed and studied the scriptures, the stronger my testimony grows. I have had a couple of other experiences happen to me that have greatly strengthened my faith. They are things I generally don’t share with others, especially on an internet forum.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want answers to troubling questions, but I also don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everything to be answered or understood logically. Remember that faith is one of the fundamental principles of the gospel.[/quote]
Unless you are willing to question the testimony itself, no amount of logic , reason, or evidence will make any difference.
For me, the key was realizing that people of many other faiths had the same deep spiritual witness that I had, yet believed core doctrines that were contradictory to those god had told me were true. Clearly, people can be abysmally mistaken about god speaking to them. If it could be true for others, I had to admit it could be true for my own beliefs as well.[/quote]
So are you saying that because many people think they are right that nobody is right? And I would be careful about judging how strong somebody else’s faith is. Can you really say that your spiritual testimony was as strong as you thought if you lost it?[/quote]
I’m saying that because many deeply believe they’re right, and logically all can’t be right, people have the capacity to deeply believe things that are false.
As a psychologist, I understand how insidious and powerful cognitive biases can be. Hell, I had a Ph.D. and was still subject to those biases as a believing Mormon. Even today, I am subject to them; the best I can do is be aware of them, and take everything with a block of salt.
I know how powerful my testimony was as a believing Mormon. At one point in my life, I honestly would have given my life before denying what I knew to be true. And I know many of other religions feel the same way. Look at Tiribulus, here. Can anyone question his sincerity, or the depth of his conviction?
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Disagree, obviously. You know we don’t believe in the Trinity, so why ask again? Hevenly Father is one being. Jesus Christ is a separate being. The Holy Ghost/Spirit is another. They are each separate beings with different roles, who are one in purpose, and together make up the Godhead. >>>[/quote]That is a satanic false idolatrous polytheistic godhead conceived for the purpose of keeping religious people dead in their sin. It is working all too well. Repent, I implore you, and turn to the mercy of the one true and living triune God who actually exists. Every other god in all the bible except He who has eternally existed as one God being Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a false god indeed as your grievously misinterpreted passages so loudly testify.
Have Catholics and protestants alike fallen so far into post modernistic compromise that you don’t even have to have the true God anymore to be a Christian? No wonder this country is sinking.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< Disagree, obviously. You know we don’t believe in the Trinity, so why ask again? Hevenly Father is one being. Jesus Christ is a separate being. The Holy Ghost/Spirit is another. They are each separate beings with different roles, who are one in purpose, and together make up the Godhead. >>>[/quote]That is a satanic false idolatrous polytheistic godhead conceived for the purpose of keeping religious people dead in their sin. It is working all too well. Repent, I implore you, and turn to the mercy of the one true and living triune God who actually exists. Every other god in all the bible except He who has eternally existed as one God being Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a false god indeed as your grievously misinterpreted passages so loudly testify.
Have Catholics and protestants alike fallen so far into post modernistic compromise that you don’t even have to have the true God anymore to be a Christian? No wonder this country is sinking.
[/quote]
But the Trinity isn’t taught in the Bible. My belief has just as much merit as yours does if taken solely from the Bible.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< But the Trinity isn’t taught in the Bible. My belief has just as much merit as yours does if taken solely from the Bible. [/quote]This is so tough to do online. Listen man. I have no ill will toward you. Truly I don’t. My hand is out to you, I take no delight in tearing down your religion. Frankly I’d much rather talk about the grace and glory of the exalted risen Christ, but no matter what I do God puts me in positions to defend His name and truth. Forlife is right though. I didn’t even mention the book of Abraham which anybody could say said anything in the early 1800’s because ancient Egyptian had not been deciphered yet. The Rosetta stone had just been discovered. Once the hieroglyphs were understood Joseph was shown to be a red handedly caught con artist. This is recent friend. Joe got revelations on cue at the most opportune times like Forlife said. For instance when he wanted bed the wives of people who believed in him. Can you imagine a man saying to you that God has told him to have sex with YOUR wife!!!
Let’s not forget when Lucy found out about his divinely inspired philandering and quite rightly went off about it, he got a quick revelation right then too wherein God threatened to DESTROY poor heartbroken Lucy if she did not give her blessing to her husband’s whoremongering right in her face. Please man. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on for a couple hours. This guy was an astonishingly talented con man and I do mean talented. What he lacked in formal education he made up for an hundredfold in imagination, charisma and manipulated influence over others. Don’t even get me started on Brigham either. TOTALLY different man than Joseph, but brilliant manipulator as well nonetheless.
Yes, the bible most definitely DOES teach the trinity. That’s why centuries and centuries of faithful scholarship keeps coming to the same conclusion. I am NOT against YOU. Quite the contrary I promise you. You are being deceived and sometimes my passion is misguided into words sharper than I realize when I’m typing them. I don’t want to see people die. You cannot worship false gods and have the true God shrug His shoulders and blow it off. Read Isaiah or Jeremiah or Ezekiel. The holy one of Israel breathed fearsome burning wrath on His own people for doing just that and guess how he did it. He sent idolatrous pagan nations to destroy them out of pure ironic disdain.
[quote]Makavali wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:I take no delight in tearing down your religion.[/quote]Bull shit.[/quote]Ahhh, look who’s back. General Hitchens boodle boy with his pants around his ankles and his butterfly boxers on display, tripping around under a self inflicted delusion of substance free wisdom.
[quote]Makavali wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:I take no delight in tearing down your religion.[/quote]Bull shit.[/quote]Ahhh, look who’s back. General Hitchens boodle boy with his pants around his ankles and his butterfly boxers on display, tripping around under a self inflicted delusion of substance free wisdom.
[/quote]
I’m not wearing pants (settle boy) and they are Playboy boxers.