Jeez, it must be so irritating constantly capitalising pronouns. I feel for ya.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Listen to the link I posted above please Pat. I listened to yours from beginning to end. If God did not elect to save some then ALL would be justly damned. You just will not squeeze this by your ears my friend. Once you actually understand sin, which is impossible without also understanding what God has revealed about Himself, the question becomes NOT why would He send anybody to hell, but WHY OH WHY would He save anybody at all. People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
Since by your own admission, you were every bit as deserving of damnation as those that actually will be damned, why did god choose to predestinate and save you and not them? Why would god love you more than them?
Are you just that special?[/quote] I was and am every bit as deserving, in many cases much more. I have absolutely no idea why He elects who He does and not others. Not told. None of my business. I AM told that He is no respecter of persons. He does not consider the person of one individual over another. I only know what He tells me and I trust that His reasons, because they’re His, are all holy, wise, just, gracious, merciful and loving by HIS definitions. I assume every person I see is one of His and treat them as if Jesus is waiting, arms open for them to come to Him. I have no knowledge or right to do otherwise. He saves THE most, to us, unlikely abominable godless heathens imaginable and He saves the decent middle class “religious” grandma and anybody in between. I’ve met them.
[/quote]
Divine election is a farse, a lie, a total deprivation of the truth. You’ve been sold a load of crap and you bought it.
Sorry after hearing that ‘sermon’ if one could call it that, I am more convinced than ever that Calvinism is complete absolute trash with no redeemable qualities in salvation history. I think porn has more value.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Jn 3:17
“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”[/quote]
Guess you went to Mass this Sunday as well. [/quote]
You bet…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
“None is righteous, no, not one”[/quote]
This is one of the proof texts that annoys me beyond almost any other. I mean this is blatant ignoring of context.
We’ll look at 3:10-18, and as it was told to me, “A text, taken out of context, is a pretext for prooftext.”
We have six citations from the OT confirming the charge of utter wickedness in Israel. The chain of citations is from Ps 14:3, 5:9, 140:3, 10:7, Is 59:7-8, and Ps 36:1, in order.
Many of these passages distinguish, utterly clear, between the righteous and the ‘depraved’ or wicked. This without a doubt suggests that Paul is not condemning every single Israelite without exception (otherwise he’d be condemning Jesus). The point is that sin has taken hold of the covenant people as it has the REST OF THE WORLD. Showing also that sin, which spread throughout the body of mankind, has spread throughout the body of every man who is prone to use his members as instruments of wickedness (6:13). All, with exception of one, highlights a part of the body in this way.
I’ll refrain from posting what Tirib’s beloved St. Augustine (who was a Bishop of the Catholic Church and I love more) says about the quote.[/quote]
I listened to that link, and it definately gave me insight in to tirib’s head, but it’s rather sad at the same time…He thinks the Mormons and the JW twisted scripture? Holy Crap! Everything, I mean every quote from scripture was taken grossly out of context to make a point the scriptures were not trying to make.
As I was listening, I was looking up the scriptures he refered and looked before and after what was written. Such as the case with Romans Chap 3, Verses 1-9 set up the 9-20 which set up the rest. Paul’s actual point? No one is ‘chosen’, special or better in the eye’s of God whether he gave you the law or not…Ironic as hell considering he delved into divine election shortly after.
The post above were the notes I took during the sermon…See them
I with hold comment on some of what I heard because it would be to personal and mean. But it’s as bad or worse than I originally thought.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
I understood i will burn in Hell.
but I still don’t know in which Hell i will burn.
Gehenna ? Sheol ? Hades ? Tartarus ?
Will i burn in a jewish Hell ? a “fulfiled” jewish Hell ? an hellenized jewish hell ? syncretic greco-egyptian Hell ? a proto-gnostic Hell ? a Dantesque Hell ?
God changed his Almighty Mind so often on this one that i’m lost. [/quote]
Kamui! Great to see you here again!
[/quote]
Indeed haven’t seen you in a while.
Hades and Sheol are the same thing in the bible and tartarus and the bottomless pit (not sure if they are equivalent) are the really really bad places in hades. Satan’s angels went to tartarus while Satan himself went to the bottomless pit for a thousand years. In Luke the rich man goes to hades which doesn’t sound nice. Near the end of Revelation death(the grave?) and hades are cast into Gehenna.
I always had a question for you but wasn’t sure if you were still around. I always found it strange for a deist to accept the moral argument for God yet hold he is impersonal. If his personality is done away with, what happens to ours?
[quote]pat wrote:<<< I with hold comment on some of what I heard because it would be to personal and mean. But it’s as bad or worse than I originally thought.[/quote]You ARE clueless Pat. Dr. Voddie gave us a scholarly and reverent exposition of the doctrine of depravity as revealed by God Himself in His Word. You are enslaved to your own stiffnecked mind. Pretty much the response I expect from a liberal Catholic. Too bad too because you’re a pretty smart guy until the bible comes up for discussion.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Listen to the link I posted above please Pat. I listened to yours from beginning to end. If God did not elect to save some then ALL would be justly damned. You just will not squeeze this by your ears my friend. Once you actually understand sin, which is impossible without also understanding what God has revealed about Himself, the question becomes NOT why would He send anybody to hell, but WHY OH WHY would He save anybody at all. People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
Since by your own admission, you were every bit as deserving of damnation as those that actually will be damned, why did god choose to predestinate and save you and not them? Why would god love you more than them?
Are you just that special?[/quote] I was and am every bit as deserving, in many cases much more. I have absolutely no idea why He elects who He does and not others. Not told. None of my business. I AM told that He is no respecter of persons. He does not consider the person of one individual over another. I only know what He tells me and I trust that His reasons, because they’re His, are all holy, wise, just, gracious, merciful and loving by HIS definitions. I assume every person I see is one of His and treat them as if Jesus is waiting, arms open for them to come to Him. I have no knowledge or right to do otherwise. He saves THE most, to us, unlikely abominable godless heathens imaginable and He saves the decent middle class “religious” grandma and anybody in between. I’ve met them.
[/quote]
In other words, you admit your own doctrine makes no sense.
Sorry, but “only god knows the answer” doesn’t work any better for you than it does for Catholics, Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< I with hold comment on some of what I heard because it would be to personal and mean. But it’s as bad or worse than I originally thought.[/quote]You ARE clueless Pat. Dr. Voddie gave us a scholarly and reverent exposition of the doctrine of depravity as revealed by God Himself in His Word. You are enslaved to your own stiffnecked mind. Pretty much the response I expect from a liberal Catholic. Too bad too because you’re a pretty smart guy until the bible comes up for discussion.
[/quote]
You will get my prayers tirib. Dr. Voddie…oh never mind. It’s calvanistic, I’ll say that. Allow me to ‘shake the dust’ from my feet of this heresy. Total depravity is a farce, a man made lie.
I am a Roman Catholic, proudly and gladly.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Listen to the link I posted above please Pat. I listened to yours from beginning to end. If God did not elect to save some then ALL would be justly damned. You just will not squeeze this by your ears my friend. Once you actually understand sin, which is impossible without also understanding what God has revealed about Himself, the question becomes NOT why would He send anybody to hell, but WHY OH WHY would He save anybody at all. People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
Since by your own admission, you were every bit as deserving of damnation as those that actually will be damned, why did god choose to predestinate and save you and not them? Why would god love you more than them?
Are you just that special?[/quote] I was and am every bit as deserving, in many cases much more. I have absolutely no idea why He elects who He does and not others. Not told. None of my business. I AM told that He is no respecter of persons. He does not consider the person of one individual over another. I only know what He tells me and I trust that His reasons, because they’re His, are all holy, wise, just, gracious, merciful and loving by HIS definitions. I assume every person I see is one of His and treat them as if Jesus is waiting, arms open for them to come to Him. I have no knowledge or right to do otherwise. He saves THE most, to us, unlikely abominable godless heathens imaginable and He saves the decent middle class “religious” grandma and anybody in between. I’ve met them.
[/quote]
In other words, you admit your own doctrine makes no sense.
Sorry, but “only god knows the answer” doesn’t work any better for you than it does for Catholics, Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses.[/quote]
You should listen to the link…I mean WOW, it’s pretty bad. I don’t know how anybody could listen and say ‘Yeah, that makes sense…I am lower than dog shit, because God made man sin and now unless he chooses me I will be nothing more than dogshit. If he choses me, I am elected dog shit which means I won’t dry up and blow away in the wind. But you ARE dog shit, make no mistake.’ ← That’s a paraphrase…
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Listen to the link I posted above please Pat. I listened to yours from beginning to end. If God did not elect to save some then ALL would be justly damned. You just will not squeeze this by your ears my friend. Once you actually understand sin, which is impossible without also understanding what God has revealed about Himself, the question becomes NOT why would He send anybody to hell, but WHY OH WHY would He save anybody at all. People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
Since by your own admission, you were every bit as deserving of damnation as those that actually will be damned, why did god choose to predestinate and save you and not them? Why would god love you more than them?
Are you just that special?[/quote] I was and am every bit as deserving, in many cases much more. I have absolutely no idea why He elects who He does and not others. Not told. None of my business. I AM told that He is no respecter of persons. He does not consider the person of one individual over another. I only know what He tells me and I trust that His reasons, because they’re His, are all holy, wise, just, gracious, merciful and loving by HIS definitions. I assume every person I see is one of His and treat them as if Jesus is waiting, arms open for them to come to Him. I have no knowledge or right to do otherwise. He saves THE most, to us, unlikely abominable godless heathens imaginable and He saves the decent middle class “religious” grandma and anybody in between. I’ve met them.
[/quote]
In other words, you admit your own doctrine makes no sense.
Sorry, but “only god knows the answer” doesn’t work any better for you than it does for Catholics, Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses.[/quote]
You should listen to the link…I mean WOW, it’s pretty bad. I don’t know how anybody could listen and say ‘Yeah, that makes sense…I am lower than dog shit, because God made man sin and now unless he chooses me I will be nothing more than dogshit. If he choses me, I am elected dog shit which means I won’t dry up and blow away in the wind. But you ARE dog shit, make no mistake.’ ← That’s a paraphrase…[/quote]
Lol. I prefer Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And Psalm 8:
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
And 1 John 3:
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Calvin must have been sleeping in his bible lessons during those parts.
Anything, but the truth. Just as He said it would be.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< I am a Roman Catholic, proudly and gladly.[/quote]I am a child of the most high God, humbly and gratefully.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
7 more baptisms last Sunday morning.
[/quote]
Seven? SEVEN? We baptized ten adults, baptized five infants, 12 came into full communion with the Church (requires 9 months of preparation), we baptized two inmates through our prison ministry and also 30 new families come back to the Church and rejoin the Parish. Moreover, dozens or more individuals repent of their sins, converted, and received forgiveness after several decades of doing their own will. Oh…and, our Parish had a 16 year old girl take temporary vows with Oprah’s favorite Religious Order, Dominican Sisters of Mary, which also are my favorite Nuns, as the owner of my favorite pizza joint, Dominos Pizza, gave a large sum of money to set up their Convent in Michigan. Maybe you can make a visit.
Sounds like the Holy Ghost is working through the door-to-door Catholic evangelists. I guess it also helps if you actually hear the Gospel and receive Jesus at Sunday and Daily Mass. 
I am, Gentleman,
Your obedient Servant,
Chris IV
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
no idea why
[/quote]
I’ll give you a clue, they are usually baptized and keep his commandments.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Dr. Voddie gave us
[/quote]
Dr. Voddie v. the Body of Christ.
Private Interpretation v. Authoritative Interpretation.
Ho hum. I don’t know if I can choose.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Humble? You boast of your private interpretations over the authority of His Bride? Grateful? You call his body the whore of Babylon? Do not pit yourself against your Mother Church, nothing good can come from it.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Humble? You boast of your private interpretations over the authority of His Bride? Grateful? You call his body the whore of Babylon? Do not pit yourself against your Mother Church, nothing good can come from it.[/quote]
I love, LOVE how you match his sweeping authoritative statements with sweeping authoritative statements of your own. In all seriousness, great stuff
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Humble? You boast of your private interpretations over the authority of His Bride? Grateful? You call his body the whore of Babylon? Do not pit yourself against your Mother Church, nothing good can come from it.[/quote]
I love, LOVE how you match his sweeping authoritative statements with sweeping authoritative statements of your own. In all seriousness, great stuff :)[/quote]
I find Tirib’s boasting of his Calvinistic private interpretation and name calling to not mesh with humbleness and gratefulness. I was being specific.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Dr. Voddie
[/quote]
More on Dr. Voddie’s heretical sermon. His underlying and first premise is so far gone and heretical that the Early Church declared the Gnostics heretical for teaching it. The surprising thing is that Tirib knows so much about heresies and heretics, even Gnostic if we believe him, that he would not recognize this heresy that he believes, coming forth from his preacher.
Man is inherently evil. That is, from his own mouth, Dr. Voddie’s premise that he relies on to prove Total Depravity. In order to disprove Dr. Voddie’s Total Depravity, one needs to prove that his premise that Man is inherently evil is incorrect.
If man is inherently evil then all men are evil.
Jesus is a man, but is not evil.
So, not all men are evil.
Thus man is not inherently evil.
Disproved.
I am, Nation,
Your obedient Servant,
Chris IV
P.S. If you need more scripture and explanation, I have it. But, I am sure that this is by far more evidence then you need.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Anything, but the truth. Just as He said it would be.[/quote]
LOL!