[quote]pat wrote:
Jn 3:17
“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”[/quote]
Guess you went to Mass this Sunday as well.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
Or perhaps we do understand how evil sin is AND we also understand that the infinite power of the Atonement of Christ can heal us as we repent and to turn to God.
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” (Isaiah 53:5)
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Listen to the link I posted above please Pat. I listened to yours from beginning to end. If God did not elect to save some then ALL would be justly damned. You just will not squeeze this by your ears my friend. Once you actually understand sin, which is impossible without also understanding what God has revealed about Himself, the question becomes NOT why would He send anybody to hell, but WHY OH WHY would He save anybody at all. People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
…I’m going to see if this helps…
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
He did it because he loved the world.
But, that doesn’t answer why you say that God created and willed some men to sin and go to Hell. If God willed man to commit moral evil, then God himself committed moral evil. How can God go against himself?
The more reasonable (that is to say that the previous explanation is not reasonable at all) and the actual answer is Satan used his free will and abused it by not obeying authority. And, Hell was created by Satan’s disobedience to God and purposeful removal from God’s love. Which is what Hell is, the removal of yourself from God’s love. God does not send you to Hell, you send yourself to Hell.
Not that God willed man to commit moral evil.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m in between sets Pat. Had to stop n tell ya. This sermon is absolutely patheitc. I have mumbled full biblical r3futations to everything this guy is saying by accident in my sleep. More later.[/quote]
I would not expect you to respond any other way. But all in all, the points he brought up are solid.
What’s the point of preaching to the condemned? What’s the point of preaching or spreading the Gospel at all if you have no control over your own destiny? What’s the point of the gospel if you have no control over your own destiny?
All good questions, I have never heard an answer.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Calvinist Witnessing.[/quote]
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Alright Patrick ye ol Leprechaun you, enough of this blarney. On to what the God breathed Christian scriptures actually DO say about the depravity of man from a black kid hailing from the ghettos of L.A. now raised to anointed preacher of the infallible Word of almighty God. Dr. Voddie Bachum gives us the mind of the Lord concerning the depravity and inability of fallen corrupted sinful man. Seriously dude. I listened to every word. This other chap is a fine Christian and great guy I’m sure, but wholly unqualified to handle these meaty truths unlike Voddie who is eminently qualified on every level.
Even the unbelievers will see the difference between the two if they listen. When he said that Calvinists believe their children are automatically elect and saved I almost dropped my bar. Like I say. Great guy and sincere believer, but totally ill equipped for this task.
[/quote]
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St. Paul is building his case against the gentile and Jewish worlds? Really? That’s what he got out of that???
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Total depravity - Doctrine of man?? You bet…
So to not acknowledge total depravity is to say that man should just mask his pain with medication or immediate gratification?? A very two dimensional view. I do not believe in masking pain as a solution and I do vehemently deny total depravity. -
Why cannot you think your a ‘pretty goods person’? After all claiming that you are a good person is not to say you are equal with God.
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Romans chapter 3 deals with people who think their way is better because it follows the law…the exerpt Dr. Baucham deals with is actually an admonishment of people who believe they are ‘chosen’ aka, elect?? Romans 3:9 -20 is an admonishment of the Jews for thinking they have some default grace…How ironic.
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So man is so disgusting he is totally incapable of good? Wowsers!!
Gen 1:27
“So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.” -
Now everyone is condemned?? What about the fucking elect? This is killing me.
Why in the hell would you want me to listen to this? I find this pretty twisted.
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St. Paul says (taken out of context)“None is righteous, no, not one”
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St. Paul also says Rm 3:21 “overthrow the law” I can take things out of context too.
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Oh goody Ephesians…Here’s what St. Paul is really saying →
“one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6]Â one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
(Ephesians 4:5-6 ESV)” -
You can’t know God with out sucking balls? Okay…
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Lost man is walking under a curse? You cannot educate a man out of this, nobody can do shit about it.
-Hold ON- 25:30 into the speech - This sums it all up!! “There is nothing you or I can do about this. The blinders on his eyes are there super naturally and must be removed supernaturally.” WHAT!!!???
TRANSLATION: God made you a sinner through no fault of your own, but God if he feels like it, can remove or let remain the said blinders. -
We are incapable of eradicating evil, I totally agree…
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We depend on the sanctifying grace of Christ… I agree.
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This is a miserable existence…
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We don’t preach the gospel because we don’t believe they need it? Ugh.
I really don’t know what to say and I don’t mean it positively. I am going to with hold comment.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
Or perhaps we do understand how evil sin is AND we also understand that the infinite power of the Atonement of Christ can heal us as we repent and to turn to God.
“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” (Isaiah 53:5)[/quote]
Hmmmm… So different, yet so much the same? Wait! You’re supposed to be my enemy. You can’t love God.
[quote]pat wrote:
“None is righteous, no, not one”[/quote]
This is one of the proof texts that annoys me beyond almost any other. I mean this is blatant ignoring of context.
We’ll look at 3:10-18, and as it was told to me, “A text, taken out of context, is a pretext for prooftext.”
We have six citations from the OT confirming the charge of utter wickedness in Israel. The chain of citations is from Ps 14:3, 5:9, 140:3, 10:7, Is 59:7-8, and Ps 36:1, in order.
Many of these passages distinguish, utterly clear, between the righteous and the ‘depraved’ or wicked. This without a doubt suggests that Paul is not condemning every single Israelite without exception (otherwise he’d be condemning Jesus). The point is that sin has taken hold of the covenant people as it has the REST OF THE WORLD. Showing also that sin, which spread throughout the body of mankind, has spread throughout the body of every man who is prone to use his members as instruments of wickedness (6:13). All, with exception of one, highlights a part of the body in this way.
I’ll refrain from posting what Tirib’s beloved St. Augustine (who was a Bishop of the Catholic Church and I love more) says about the quote.
I’ll have to correct you on this later Chris.
EDIT: I finally got to watch this incredibly idiotic false caricature of “Calvinists Witnessing” LOL!!!
Come with us sometime and we’ll show you how Calvinists witness my dear friend. 7 more baptisms last Sunday morning. True Calvinists are ALL ABOUT proclaiming the infallible Word of almighty God to a lost world because HE COMMANDS IT AND WE KNOW WE CANNOT LOSE. ALL of His own WILL respond to His irresistible grace and we have no idea who they are. He alone knows and we consider it the highest of honors and privileges to be used of Him to raise His elect brethren from true death to true life in Himself. We go into our neighborhoods proclaiming as Jesus did REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!!! Forsake your miserable rebellious lives and turn to Him who is LIFE itself and He will live His life through you. ALL PRAISE, GLORY AND HONOR BE TO HIM ALONE WHO IS THE TRIUMPHANT CONQUERING KING OF THE HEARTS OF MEN!!!
Your weak pitiful pleading effeminate Jesus is a lie. The resurrected King of Kings sits at the right hand of the Father on high, clothed in ALL power and majesty. None can stay His hand or say to Him “what are you doing?” ALL that the Father has given Him WILL come and they WILL do it willingly, humbly, gratefully AND FREELY because He will make them free to do so. You guys keep your pathetic humanistic straw men coming. The more the merrier.
I understood i will burn in Hell.
but I still don’t know in which Hell i will burn.
Gehenna ? Sheol ? Hades ? Tartarus ?
Will i burn in a jewish Hell ? a “fulfiled” jewish Hell ? an hellenized jewish hell ? syncretic greco-egyptian Hell ? a proto-gnostic Hell ? a Dantesque Hell ?
God changed his Almighty Mind so often on this one that i’m lost.
[quote]kamui wrote:
I understood i will burn in Hell.
but I still don’t know in which Hell i will burn.
Gehenna ? Sheol ? Hades ? Tartarus ?
Will i burn in a jewish Hell ? a “fulfiled” jewish Hell ? an hellenized jewish hell ? syncretic greco-egyptian Hell ? a proto-gnostic Hell ? a Dantesque Hell ?
God changed his Almighty Mind so often on this one that i’m lost. [/quote]
You will be reborn as a dung beetle.
No worries, find a nice missus beetle, roll a few shit pills for your young and you are almost done.
Its really hard to be a bad dung beetle so your karmic rebound is practically ensured.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
I find the notion that God and Satan are locked in some epic struggle for all our souls, and that technicalities and misunderstandings over scripture can tip the scales for a man… well, childish and petty.
[/quote]
So therefore it can’t possibly be true, right? You think it’s petty so it can’t be true. I find that childish.[/quote]
Pettiness is real, no doubt about that. If however the ultimate master of all that is and ever will be is petty, jealous, and vengeful, then we should all regret being born.
Be cast into the fire, or be a sycophant boot licker to a power mad deity for eternity.
One question: If some of you believe that the stakes are really this high. That if you live your life the wrong way you might end up being punished so severely… how do you dare bring children into the world? Your child may not follow your faith. I certainly don’t follow MY parents faith.
That’s quite the roll of the dice there. But I suppose if your child ends up as a murderer, that is also God’s will. And God commanded you to multiply and be fruitful. So yeah nevermind.
Also, Forlife has a point he keeps making and it keeps getting ignored. All of you think you are right and the other guy is wrong. It stands to reason that you cannot ALL be right, and all any of you have to offer is: “this is what I believe.” All based on events that conveniently happened thousands of years ago. [/quote]
You’re quoting forlife? LOL!
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
I find the notion that God and Satan are locked in some epic struggle for all our souls, and that technicalities and misunderstandings over scripture can tip the scales for a man… well, childish and petty.
[/quote]
So therefore it can’t possibly be true, right? You think it’s petty so it can’t be true. I find that childish.[/quote]
Oh, it might be true.
I just do not care to whorship such a being.
If Lucifer rebelled against THAT, I guess hell is probably the better choice overall.
[/quote]
Well, it is your choice my friend.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It is meaningless. Ask Pat to identify even any TYPE of person that goes to hell and either everybody is inside the church or people outside the church go to heaven. Heretics, idolaters, homosexuals, complete and utter heathen, nobody. Nobody goes to hell so they must be inside the church.[/quote]
He didn’t say they (we) would go to heaven, only that Christ would be the judge rather than your sanctimonious self.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Wow this brings back memories… if I’m not careful I’ll be back to bugging people with Watchtower pamphlets on sunday mornings with my mother. lol[/quote]
Ah…I see…a bad religious experience early in life.
[quote]kamui wrote:
I understood i will burn in Hell.
but I still don’t know in which Hell i will burn.
Gehenna ? Sheol ? Hades ? Tartarus ?
Will i burn in a jewish Hell ? a “fulfiled” jewish Hell ? an hellenized jewish hell ? syncretic greco-egyptian Hell ? a proto-gnostic Hell ? a Dantesque Hell ?
God changed his Almighty Mind so often on this one that i’m lost. [/quote]
Probably in the one you least like. Seriously though all of what you quote are representations.
If any of the gods I have ever heard people describe as the one they believe in actually did exist, I would probably dedicate my life to fighting their evil.
Thankfully, they don’t, so I can dedicate my life to travelling and having sex instead.
EDIT: Seriously though, even the most mundane “everyone goes to heaven and is happily ever after” fairy-tale rendition of god/the after life gives me chills.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Listen to the link I posted above please Pat. I listened to yours from beginning to end. If God did not elect to save some then ALL would be justly damned. You just will not squeeze this by your ears my friend. Once you actually understand sin, which is impossible without also understanding what God has revealed about Himself, the question becomes NOT why would He send anybody to hell, but WHY OH WHY would He save anybody at all. People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
Since by your own admission, you were every bit as deserving of damnation as those that actually will be damned, why did god choose to predestinate and save you and not them? Why would god love you more than them?
Are you just that special?
[quote]kamui wrote:
I understood i will burn in Hell.
but I still don’t know in which Hell i will burn.
Gehenna ? Sheol ? Hades ? Tartarus ?
Will i burn in a jewish Hell ? a “fulfiled” jewish Hell ? an hellenized jewish hell ? syncretic greco-egyptian Hell ? a proto-gnostic Hell ? a Dantesque Hell ?
God changed his Almighty Mind so often on this one that i’m lost. [/quote]
Kamui! Great to see you here again!
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Listen to the link I posted above please Pat. I listened to yours from beginning to end. If God did not elect to save some then ALL would be justly damned. You just will not squeeze this by your ears my friend. Once you actually understand sin, which is impossible without also understanding what God has revealed about Himself, the question becomes NOT why would He send anybody to hell, but WHY OH WHY would He save anybody at all. People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.[/quote]
Since by your own admission, you were every bit as deserving of damnation as those that actually will be damned, why did god choose to predestinate and save you and not them? Why would god love you more than them?
Are you just that special?[/quote] I was and am every bit as deserving, in many cases much more. I have absolutely no idea why He elects who He does and not others. Not told. None of my business. I AM told that He is no respecter of persons. He does not consider the person of one individual over another. I only know what He tells me and I trust that His reasons, because they’re His, are all holy, wise, just, gracious, merciful and loving by HIS definitions. I assume every person I see is one of His and treat them as if Jesus is waiting, arms open for them to come to Him. I have no knowledge or right to do otherwise. He saves THE most, to us, unlikely abominable godless heathens imaginable and He saves the decent middle class “religious” grandma and anybody in between. I’ve met them.