[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
biblically based refutation of Calvinism.
[/quote]
I always wondered how could someone come into a Cathedral and tear down the drapes, flip over the altar, spill the wine, stomp on the Eucharist, kill the teacher, burn the missals and hymnals, break all the furniture, toss the tabernacle, break the statues and stained glass, and then pick up a single collection of books and say…this here…wait rips out seven books is where we will find truth.
Makes zero sense to me.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Don’t be afraid Tirib, the truth shall set you free…
A quality, Bible based refutation of Calvinism:
Don’t worry there is not a stitch of Catholicism…Or are Baptists elected to go to hell too? I get confused with all the hell bound folks.[/quote]No such thing as a biblically based refutation of Calvinism Pat. I’ve read and heard every serious attempt ever made. I’ll listen though. You better stay away from sermonaudio though pal. About 85% Calviniists over there. Oh yes sir. Mountains of solid reformed gospel at sermonaudio.
EDIT: What is it with Catholics and sending me dispensationalists? First Chris, then Jake and now Pat.
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Yeah there is, this guy slaughtered it. I mean destroyed it step by step, fully scripturally referenced.
I know you won’t listen to refutations and you will believe what you want despite evidence to the contrary. But that doesn’t make you right…TULIP is NOT scriptural. Salvation is for every man woman and child, and there isn’t shit you can do to change that scriptural fact.
[quote]pat wrote:<< Yeah there is, this guy slaughtered it. I mean destroyed it step by step, fully scripturally referenced. >>>[/quote]HE ID AND IT IS??? Whatsoever shall I do now!!! I’m jist playin with ya Pat. I don’t know how many dozens of times I’ve heard this. [quote]pat wrote:I know you won’t listen to refutations and you will believe what you want despite evidence to the contrary. But that doesn’t make you right…TULIP is NOT scriptural. >>>[/quote]I told you I would listen and I will. I’ll listen to it tonight while I’m working legs. A dose of Aristotle and Aquinas might get me goin =] [quote]pat wrote:<<< Salvation is for every man woman and child, >>>[/quote]Only for unitarians Pat and if even one person God wills to be in heaven winds up in hell then He is the gravest of failures. God forbid[quote]pat wrote:and there isn’t shit you can do to change that scriptural fact.[/quote]There is not one scriptural fact I would ever want nor dare to change. Here is the Baptist confession of faith of 1689 before they backslid. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm
Here’s section 10 paragraph on effectual calling:
[quote]10. Effectual Calling
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
20 years ago.[/quote]
That’s fine, because for Catholics old arguments are still true arguments.
So, why do you leave Peter because of Judas. And, where does the Bible come from?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
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You mean, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
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You mean, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?[/quote]A meaningless haiku in the hands of Rome. Everybody’s somehow inside the church anyway. Just ask Pat.
How bout “Christoriphus sufferus heartbreakingus decepticus”. Come on that’s a good one buddy.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[/quote]
You mean, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?[/quote]A meaningless haiku in the hands of Rome. Everybody’s somehow inside the church anyway. Just ask Pat.
How bout “Christoriphus sufferus heartbreakingus decepticus”. Come on that’s a good one buddy.
[/quote]
No, it’s not a meaningless haiku, it’s not even a haiku. It’s definitely not a meaningless one if it was one. It is a thrice confirmed Doctrine of the Church. You mistake an exception for the rule (but Calvinists are apt to doing that), but you ignore the mandate that goes along with such Doctrine.
And, I am not sure what Pat has said, but no not everyone is inside the Church.
It is meaningless. Ask Pat to identify even any TYPE of person that goes to hell and either everybody is inside the church or people outside the church go to heaven. Heretics, idolaters, homosexuals, complete and utter heathen, nobody. Nobody goes to hell so they must be inside the church.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
biblically based refutation of Calvinism.
[/quote]
I always wondered how could someone come into a Cathedral and tear down the drapes, flip over the altar, spill the wine, stomp on the Eucharist, kill the teacher, burn the missals and hymnals, break all the furniture, toss the tabernacle, break the statues and stained glass, and then pick up a single collection of books and say…this here…wait rips out seven books is where we will find truth.
Makes zero sense to me.[/quote]Makes perfect sense to me how a supposed church could hide that simple gospel under Cathedrals, drapes, altars, wine, the “Eucharist”, teachers (bishops), missals, hymnals, furniture, tabernacles, statues and stained glass.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
biblically based refutation of Calvinism.
[/quote]
I always wondered how could someone come into a Cathedral and tear down the drapes, flip over the altar, spill the wine, stomp on the Eucharist, kill the teacher, burn the missals and hymnals, break all the furniture, toss the tabernacle, break the statues and stained glass, and then pick up a single collection of books and say…this here…wait rips out seven books is where we will find truth.
Makes zero sense to me.[/quote]Makes perfect sense to me how a supposed church could hide that simple gospel under Cathedrals, drapes, altars, wine, the “Eucharist”, teachers (bishops), missals, hymnals, furniture, tabernacles, statues and stained glass. [/quote]
I am sure it does, you’ll come up with plenty of reasons for leaving Peter because of Judas. I am sure Israel didn’t much like listening to Moses either, heck they couldn’t even listen for one morning while Moses went to the mountain top, the way of the Protestants has rich tradition all the way back to the calf worshipers of the nomadic tribes of Israel. Nothing is new under the sun.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It is meaningless. Ask Pat to identify even any TYPE of person that goes to hell and either everybody is inside the church or people outside the church go to heaven. Heretics, idolaters, homosexuals, complete and utter heathen, nobody. Nobody goes to hell so they must be inside the church.[/quote]
I don’t have to ask anyone, I know it is not meaningless because the body of Christ, the Bride teaches it. Pat doesn’t determine if doctrine is meaningless or not so not sure why you even brought that up.
Moreover, those that die in mortal sin go to hell. So, do the unbaptized and those outside the body of Christ. I am trying to think of anymore, I can’t so if I remember any else I’ll post them up.
I’m in between sets Pat. Had to stop n tell ya. This sermon is absolutely patheitc. I have mumbled full biblical r3futations to everything this guy is saying by accident in my sleep. More later.
Calvinist Witnessing.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< vainglorious Protestant who relies on his own logic and private interpretation of my Church’s Canonical Scriptures. >>>[/quote]See now here’s where you go like really drastically wrong Chris. You take the magesturium’s word that Peter (2nd Peter 1:16 and following) is there contrasting themselves, the body of bishops, with everybody else as to who has authority to interpret scripture. If you simply let him speak he’s not actually talking about interpretation in the sense of getting at the meaning of scripture at all. He’s talking about how scripture came to be in the first place. However the infallible bible butchers have spoken so it’s too late to turn back now.
Here’s a free general lesson on how we interpret scripture and how they (and by extension you) interpret scripture.
Romans 10:13-14 Now follow closely, this is tough stuff here.
Stay with me. Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. By utterly unavoidable concrete implication, those who do NOT call on the name of the Lord will NOT be saved. With me so far? They cannot call on someone on whom they have never believed as a consequence of never having heard of Him. Therefore those who have never heard “the name of the Lord” will NOT be saved. Hence Jesus’s own commandment to go into all the world and make disciples. Hence the apostles being willing to endure horrific hardship, persecution and death to bring this Jesus to those who have never heard. Simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ which will probably have even the pagans nodding their heads.
[/quote]You should take your own lesson in interpreting scripture.
What you implied from this verse is neither “utterly unavoidable” nor “concrete”? It doesn’t say anything about the state of those who do not call on the name of the Lord. This statement alone only establishes that “calling on the name of the Lord” is a sufficient condition to salvation. It doesn’t establish that it is a necessary condition to salvation. There may be other statements in the Bible that establish that calling on the Lord is necessary - but this one doesn’t.
It also contradicts your precious TULIP. It says: “For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” It does not mention an exception for those who were not pre-destined. It says “Everyone”. You ask Chris to let the Bible speak for itself - I agree - and you should listen as well.
Alright Patrick ye ol Leprechaun you, enough of this blarney. On to what the God breathed Christian scriptures actually DO say about the depravity of man from a black kid hailing from the ghettos of L.A. now raised to anointed preacher of the infallible Word of almighty God. Dr. Voddie Bachum gives us the mind of the Lord concerning the depravity and inability of fallen corrupted sinful man. Seriously dude. I listened to every word. This other chap is a fine Christian and great guy I’m sure, but wholly unqualified to handle these meaty truths unlike Voddie who is eminently qualified on every level.
Even the unbelievers will see the difference between the two if they listen. When he said that Calvinists believe their children are automatically elect and saved I almost dropped my bar. Like I say. Great guy and sincere believer, but totally ill equipped for this task.
[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:<<< What you implied from this verse is neither “utterly unavoidable” nor “concrete”? It doesn’t say anything about the state of those who do not call on the name of the Lord. >>>[/quote]Disease with 100% mortality rate sweeps entire nation. Those who get the cure will live. What about the rest?
You and SS have literally no clue what I believe. That’s understandable because you clearly have very little exposure to biblical teaching which is also understandable because you are LDS. Just take my word for it for now please. You have no earthly comprehension of what TULIP Calvinism is at all. Just like this guy whose sermon Pat posted. I am absolutely not insulting you. If you want to converse on this subject do some reading. I can recommend some. Until then you are slayers of straw men,
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<<<Everybody’s somehow inside the church anyway. Just ask Pat.>>>
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Not sure I ever said that. However, Every person who has ever lived, had a shot at salvation, every person who lives now has a shot at salvation, every person who will ever live has a shot at salvation…God condemns NO ONE by his own will but by the WILL of each individual person.
Jn 3:17
“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”
Romans 5:18
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<<>>[/quote]
And what’s wrong with Unitarians? So far you have condemned Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, poor destitute uneducated starving kids in Africa,Mormons, and (well I don’t know you’ve gone as far as condemned them, but definitely admonished them for not thinking like you) Baptists.
So anyway, what you are presenting is that God has created and condemned billions of people, not by their will, but because God decided they must burn in eternal suffering and Hell fire, why exactly? Does a loving God create to condemn?? This is an important question.
Listen to the link I posted above please Pat. I listened to yours from beginning to end. If God did not elect to save some then ALL would be justly damned. You just will not squeeze this by your ears my friend. Once you actually understand sin, which is impossible without also understanding what God has revealed about Himself, the question becomes NOT why would He send anybody to hell, but WHY OH WHY would He save anybody at all. People just plainly and simply do not grasp the blinding holiness of God almighty and how unthinkably evil even a single act of sin is (a bite from a piece of fruit). Please, keep your word and listen to Dr. Voddie above.