The Christian God: How do you know he's the good guy?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< god does not <<<>>> grieve over the damnation of his creations. <<<>>> In one particularly memorable post, you even characterized god as taking pleasure in destroying evil men.
Do you deny any of this? >>>[/quote]I categorically deny those two points. At least as characterized by you here. You either misunderstood or you’re lying. I defy you to find these.
[/quote]

I already spent more time on this than I should, but here are a few examples of what I’m talking about. I didn’t find the particular post about god snickering about the damnation of evil men, but these should suffice:

Why then did He create? To display all that He is before an intelligent audience for His own glory.

This I absolutely DO know. Any view of the human will that credits to it the ability to thwart the ultimate will of God is an affront to His majesty and power. Any person He ultimately desires to save who winds up in hell is mightier than God. NO WAY!!!

The God of the bible doesn’t “force” anybody to be saved, but He saves every last one He intends to and it is untrue that “some” reject it. ALL reject it until subdued and drawn sweetly and submissively by His grace.

If there is even one particle of physical or metaphysical reality that exists for one single nanosecond in any way, circumstance or condition other than He ultimately wishes? Then He ain’t God and whatever thwarts His will IS.

It would make no sense if it were the father weeping. For the incarnate Christ? Makes perfect sense to me.

To paraphrase in a nuthshell: I, God will choose who I will love, who I will hate, who I will save, who I will condemn, who I bless and who I will curse CUZ I"M GOD AND YOU AIN’T.

Everything He is and does is absolutely for Himself as well it should be. He loves His elect for His own glory. He hates the rest for His own glory. He saves the lost for His own glory. He damns the lost for His own glory. He creates and destroys for His own glory and praise be to His incomparable name He allows me the unthinkable privilege of participating in His own glorification in whatever ways HE sees fit.

Evil IS included in God’s plan. In His sovereign might and wisdom He orders ALL things to His own purpose and glory, not the least of which is every act of unthinkable evil and depravity in history.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<<How does this do anything but strengthen my point? >>>[/quote]What IS your point. I honestly don’t think I’m following.
[/quote]

You’ve stated that the existence of the actual ability of man to determine the course of his choices, of his existence, would mean that God was little more than another being, contingent to the will of man.

I and my Catholic brethren, along with a whole lot of Protestants and apparently even most atheists, contest that man does indeed possess self-determination. As I understand it, according to my faith, my Church, my own understanding, and some pretty smart (by the grace of God :wink: early Christian church fathers, the reasoning is a bit like this:

God is both omniscient, and omnipresent, as well as eternal. That being said, (and I’ve watched this exact conversation unfold before with you at the center), God, being omnipotent as well, can choose not to know our will and can “watch” our choices as they unfold, much in the same way he “forgets” our sins when he forgives them. If this is NOT true, a whole lot of things, both contained in the Bible and logically, don’t make any sense whatsoever. And saying, well I can’t and don’t expect to know the mind of God doesn’t really cut it when you seem to know so much else about what God wants.

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[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
“We believe and worship the Lord, one God”
“No you don’t you worship many gods”
“No we don’t we worship the Lord”
“No you don’t you believe in many gods”

Pot meet kettle…
[/quote]Hear their founder please. [quote] �¢??I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. [/quote] (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 370)

“OOH OOH OOH, that’s not official doctrine though.” Please. It is a 2nd graders task to demonstrate that mormonism is polytheistic to it’s core. The other guy even said so. I asked him “how many gods are there” and he answered “who knows?”. Good for him, honest man. I know these people Pat.[/quote]

You don’t know shit. These ‘people’ have said even if ‘other gods’ exist that they still worship the Lord. But you say you know their faith better than they do. You are full of it.[/quote]

I find his categorical condemnation of every single Mormon to eternal hellfire amusing in light of his earlier statement:

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Let’s do this for clarity…
MORMONS,
Do you believe in One God the father almighty creator of heaven and earth?

If so, does your church believe this?

I believe this should put this issue to rest once and for all.

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[quote]pat wrote:
Let’s do this for clarity…
MORMONS,
Do you believe in One God the father almighty creator of heaven and earth?

If so, does your church believe this?

I believe this should put this issue to rest once and for all.[/quote]

The 13 Articles of Faith are as official as it gets:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul - We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

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[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I didn’t find the particular post about god snickering about the damnation of evil men, but these should suffice: >>>[/quote]That and taking joy in the death of unbelievers is what I demanded proof for, so you showed yourself a liar. I never said either one of those things. I never said or implied that God cackles at the damnation of sinners and I never said or implied that He takes joy in it either. YOU put those words in my mouth because YOU cannot fathom the beautiful holy and just God of the universe. Repent and you will.

While we’re at it, how many gods were there for elder life in his LDS days? Though seeing that you’re already lied right in front of everybody you’ll probably do that about this too. Where did our friend the honest mormon go? The one with th ecourage of his convictions who does hide the fact that that he believes in the existence of many gods though he only worships 3… kinda, depending on how you look at it.

You are one confused man Pat, but I do still prefer getting along to arguing with you. I will not suffer idolatry and unitarianism to do it though.

I am always in a hurry lately. Gotta go. Cotes and Chris. I wouldn’t ignore either of you.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I didn’t find the particular post about god snickering about the damnation of evil men, but these should suffice: >>>[/quote]That and taking joy in the death of unbelievers is what I demanded proof for, so you showed yourself a liar. I never said either one of those things. I never said or implied that God cackles at the damnation of sinners and I never said or implied that He takes joy in it either. YOU put those words in my mouth because YOU cannot fathom the beautiful holy and just God of the universe. Repent and you will.

While we’re at it, how many gods were there for elder life in his LDS days? Though seeing that you’re already lied right in front of everybody you’ll probably do that about this too. Where did our friend the honest mormon go? The one with th ecourage of his convictions who does hide the fact that that he believes in the existence of many gods though he only worships 3… kinda, depending on how you look at it.

You are one confused man Pat, but I do still prefer getting along to arguing with you. I will not suffer idolatry and unitarianism to do it though.

I am always in a hurry lately. Gotta go. Cotes and Chris. I wouldn’t ignore either of you.[/quote]

I’ve never questioned your integrity, and I’ll warn you now not to start questioning mine.

I specifically recall a post where you talked about god snickering, or gloating, or something along those lines because it really got my goat at the time. I called you on it in that thread. I’m not going to spend another hour on my iPad searching for it, but you did say it.

Besides, the other posts I provided make it abundantly clear that you believe god chooses who to love and who to hate, and that he does in fact hate those he chooses to condemn to hell. You also said that god the father wouldn’t weep over those condemned to damnation, and that Jesus did so only because he was incarnate at the time.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I didn’t find the particular post about god snickering about the damnation of evil men, but these should suffice: >>>[/quote]That and taking joy in the death of unbelievers is what I demanded proof for, so you showed yourself a liar. I never said either one of those things. I never said or implied that God cackles at the damnation of sinners and I never said or implied that He takes joy in it either. YOU put those words in my mouth because YOU cannot fathom the beautiful holy and just God of the universe. Repent and you will.

While we’re at it, how many gods were there for elder life in his LDS days? Though seeing that you’re already lied right in front of everybody you’ll probably do that about this too. Where did our friend the honest mormon go? The one with th ecourage of his convictions who does hide the fact that that he believes in the existence of many gods though he only worships 3… kinda, depending on how you look at it.

You are one confused man Pat, but I do still prefer getting along to arguing with you. I will not suffer idolatry and unitarianism to do it though.

I am always in a hurry lately. Gotta go. Cotes and Chris. I wouldn’t ignore either of you.[/quote]

Tirib, I am Mr. Clarity, your failure to understand is your own damn fault. As long as you make blanket condemnations on people going to hell, something you cannot possibly know, then I will call you out as I see it.
You just refuse to listen, you see it your way and that’s it. That’s not my problem. You do not know nor have the right to say anybody is going to hell. Only God himself knows that. Therefore there is only one way to know that for yourself and that is to elevate yourself to the level of God Almighty. Every time you make a proclamation that only God can know you are elevating yourself to His divine, perfect level. You can falsely accuse me of idolatry for which you have no evidence all you want but your blasphemy is here written for all to see.

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[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I didn’t find the particular post about god snickering about the damnation of evil men, but these should suffice: >>>[/quote]That and taking joy in the death of unbelievers is what I demanded proof for, so you showed yourself a liar. I never said either one of those things. I never said or implied that God cackles at the damnation of sinners and I never said or implied that He takes joy in it either. YOU put those words in my mouth because YOU cannot fathom the beautiful holy and just God of the universe. Repent and you will.

While we’re at it, how many gods were there for elder life in his LDS days? Though seeing that you’re already lied right in front of everybody you’ll probably do that about this too. Where did our friend the honest mormon go? The one with th ecourage of his convictions who does hide the fact that that he believes in the existence of many gods though he only worships 3… kinda, depending on how you look at it.

You are one confused man Pat, but I do still prefer getting along to arguing with you. I will not suffer idolatry and unitarianism to do it though.

I am always in a hurry lately. Gotta go. Cotes and Chris. I wouldn’t ignore either of you.[/quote]

I’ve never questioned your integrity, and I’ll warn you now not to start questioning mine.

I specifically recall a post where you talked about god snickering, or gloating, or something along those lines because it really got my goat at the time. I called you on it in that thread. I’m not going to spend another hour on my iPad searching for it, but you did say it.

Besides, the other posts I provided make it abundantly clear that you believe god chooses who to love and who to hate, and that he does in fact hate those he chooses to condemn to hell. You also said that god the father wouldn’t weep over those condemned to damnation, and that Jesus did so only because he was incarnate at the time. [/quote]None of those is what I challenged. What I did challenge you did not and cannot demonstrate.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
“We believe and worship the Lord, one God”
“No you don’t you worship many gods”
“No we don’t we worship the Lord”
“No you don’t you believe in many gods”

Pot meet kettle…
[/quote]Hear their founder please. [quote] â??I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. [/quote] (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 370)

“OOH OOH OOH, that’s not official doctrine though.” Please. It is a 2nd graders task to demonstrate that mormonism is polytheistic to it’s core. The other guy even said so. I asked him “how many gods are there” and he answered “who knows?”. Good for him, honest man. I know these people Pat.[/quote]

Nice try, but that doesn’t change what I posted before. We believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings, thus the plurality of Gods he is referring to. However, they are one in purpose.

It is important to note that while the Prophet speaks of the members of the Godhead as plural it does not mean that Latter-day Saints worship many gods. As Barry Bickmore points out “For Latter-day Saints, it is acceptable to say both that there is one God, and that there is a plurality of Gods depending on context.” At the same time it is critical to note that we worship only one God. Bruce R. McConkie puts it this way:

In the ultimate and final sense of the word, there is only one true and living God. He is the Father, the Almighty Elohim, the Supreme Being, the Creator and Ruler of the universe. Paul said: “There is none other God but one. For though there be [others] that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge.” (1 Corinthians 8:4-7.)

Christ is God; he alone is the Savior. The Holy Ghost is God; he is one with the Father and the Son. But these two are the second and third members of the Godhead. The Father is God above all, and is, in fact, the God of the Son. Indeed, the resurrected Christ said to Mary Magdalene: “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17.) And also: “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28.) And yet again: “My Father . . . is greater than all.” (John 10:29.)

Thus Paul is saying that the Father is the one God who is supreme; that he is thus the God even of the Lord Jesus Christ, who himself also is God; that many others bear the name of Deity, including all exalted beings and even all false gods, but that none of them is our God; and that Jesus, under the Father, is Lord and Creator of all things. The Prophet Joseph Smith, in discussing the object upon which faith rests, bears this concordant witness: “God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fullness and perfection dwell; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life; and in him every good gift and every good principle dwell; and he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently; and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers for life and salvation.” (Lectures on Faith 2:2.) This includes the fact that the faith of Christ, who is God, is centered in his God, who is the Father.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I didn’t find the particular post about god snickering about the damnation of evil men, but these should suffice: >>>[/quote]That and taking joy in the death of unbelievers is what I demanded proof for, so you showed yourself a liar. I never said either one of those things. I never said or implied that God cackles at the damnation of sinners and I never said or implied that He takes joy in it either. YOU put those words in my mouth because YOU cannot fathom the beautiful holy and just God of the universe. Repent and you will.

While we’re at it, how many gods were there for elder life in his LDS days? Though seeing that you’re already lied right in front of everybody you’ll probably do that about this too. Where did our friend the honest mormon go? The one with th ecourage of his convictions who does hide the fact that that he believes in the existence of many gods though he only worships 3… kinda, depending on how you look at it.

You are one confused man Pat, but I do still prefer getting along to arguing with you. I will not suffer idolatry and unitarianism to do it though.

I am always in a hurry lately. Gotta go. Cotes and Chris. I wouldn’t ignore either of you.[/quote]

I’ve never questioned your integrity, and I’ll warn you now not to start questioning mine.

I specifically recall a post where you talked about god snickering, or gloating, or something along those lines because it really got my goat at the time. I called you on it in that thread. I’m not going to spend another hour on my iPad searching for it, but you did say it.

Besides, the other posts I provided make it abundantly clear that you believe god chooses who to love and who to hate, and that he does in fact hate those he chooses to condemn to hell. You also said that god the father wouldn’t weep over those condemned to damnation, and that Jesus did so only because he was incarnate at the time. [/quote]None of those is what I challenged. What I did challenge you did not and cannot demonstrate.
[/quote]

Please confirm then for the record:

You believe your god chooses who to save and who to damn, that he does not extend his grace to all or desire all to be saved, that he loves those he saves and hates those he damns, that he doesn’t weep over those he damns, and that all of it is solely for the purpose of his own glory?

Did I miss anything?

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[quote]forlife wrote:
Please confirm then for the record:

You believe your god chooses who to save and who to damn, that he does not extend his grace to all or desire all to be saved, that he loves those he saves and hates those he damns, that he doesn’t weep over those he damns, and that all of it is solely for the purpose of his own glory?

Did I miss anything?[/quote]Absolutely and unequivocally true and Biblical. Very good elder forlife, still NOT what I was challenging. I want to see cackling and glee over the general death of the wicked. THAT is what you said and THAT is what I challenged. You lied about my saying those things OR you projected what YOU wanted to see in what I was saying. I never said either. The cackling thing is a deliberate misrepresentation. You know it is.

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[quote]super saiyan wrote:<<< We believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings, thus the plurality of Gods he is referring to. >>>[/quote]Thank you. I actually mean that with all sincerity. I already knew anyway.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Please confirm then for the record:

You believe your god chooses who to save and who to damn, that he does not extend his grace to all or desire all to be saved, that he loves those he saves and hates those he damns, that he doesn’t weep over those he damns, and that all of it is solely for the purpose of his own glory?

Did I miss anything?[/quote]Absolutely and unequivocally true and Biblical. Very good elder forlife, still NOT what I was challenging. I want to see cackling and glee over the general death of the wicked. THAT is what you said and THAT is what I challenged. You lied about my saying those things OR you projected what YOU wanted to see in what I was saying. I never said either. The cackling thing is a deliberate misrepresentation. You know it is.
[/quote]

You may agree with this horseshit, but it’s NOT biblical.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Please confirm then for the record:

You believe your god chooses who to save and who to damn, that he does not extend his grace to all or desire all to be saved, that he loves those he saves and hates those he damns, that he doesn’t weep over those he damns, and that all of it is solely for the purpose of his own glory?

Did I miss anything?[/quote]Absolutely and unequivocally true and Biblical. Very good elder forlife, still NOT what I was challenging. I want to see cackling and glee over the general death of the wicked. THAT is what you said and THAT is what I challenged. You lied about my saying those things OR you projected what YOU wanted to see in what I was saying. I never said either. The cackling thing is a deliberate misrepresentation. You know it is.
[/quote]

Wow. I’m glad you at least admit to what I posted above.

And yes, you never said the word “cackling”, nor did I claim it was a direct quote. I was talking about your belief that god actually desires to damn people to eternal suffering, that he doesn’t mourn it, and that his reason for doing so is to glorify himself.

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[quote]Elder forlife wrote:<<< Wow. I’m glad you at least admit to what I posted above. >>>[/quote]You really are sumthin. Admit? I have proclaimed all those things with boldness for a year here and now you are attempting to spin that into my being pinned into finally “admitting” them? [quote]Elder forlife wrote:And yes, you never said the word “cackling”, nor did I claim it was a direct quote. I was talking about your belief that god actually desires to damn people to eternal suffering, that he doesn’t mourn it, and that his reason for doing so is to glorify himself.[/quote]The latter in no way implies the former. God does not “cackle” like a demented witch watching His creatures burn. YOU put that characterization on the holy, just and righteous true and living God. Don’t try and now say “well I didn’t really mean it that way”. You deliberately attributed to me a blasphemous attitude toward the God I love that was not remotely contained in any statement I made. I’ll be honest. I didn’t think you would do that to me. Capped maybe, but not you.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Elder forlife wrote:<<< Wow. I’m glad you at least admit to what I posted above. >>>[/quote]You really are sumthin. Admit? I have proclaimed all those things with boldness for a year here and now you are attempting to spin that into my being pinned into finally “admitting” them? [quote]Elder forlife wrote:And yes, you never said the word “cackling”, nor did I claim it was a direct quote. I was talking about your belief that god actually desires to damn people to eternal suffering, that he doesn’t mourn it, and that his reason for doing so is to glorify himself.[/quote]The latter in no way implies the former. God does not “cackle” like a demented witch watching His creatures burn. YOU put that characterization on the holy, just and righteous true and living God. Don’t try and now say “well I didn’t really mean it that way”. You deliberately attributed to me a blasphemous attitude toward the God I love that was not remotely contained in any statement I made. I’ll be honest. I didn’t think you would do that to me. Capped maybe, but not you.
[/quote]

Yikes!! Creating someone with the intent to torture them eternally? That sounds evil to me.

If that’s your God, then you were correct when you said you worship a different Jesus than Mormons do (and I’ll bet BC and Pat would disavow your Jesus as well). The Jesus we worship is loving and kind, entreating all to come unto him. Not someone who is capable of the atrocity that you accuse him of.

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[quote]TallBaldDave wrote:
…Yikes!! Creating someone with the intent to torture them eternally? That sounds evil to me.

If that’s your God, then you were correct when you said you worship a different Jesus than Mormons do (and I’ll bet BC and Pat would disavow your Jesus as well). The Jesus we worship is loving and kind, entreating all to come unto him. Not someone who is capable of the atrocity that you accuse him of…[/quote]

You Hippie Herectic, you!

Mufasa

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LOL! It’s a good thing you guys weren’t around for the first constitutional convention LOL! Guys like me were all over the place. Which explains everything we see today.