The Christian Agenda Continues

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I mean, is Capitalism/free markets a state religion?

Private property is certainly made up, and then enforced.[/quote]

This is a question I’ve been thinking about for some years, and if you are interested I will give you my answer. It’s a great question, and I wish I had time right now to give it my full attention, but I promise to come back to it and give you the long answer.

Suffice to say, I believe that the United States does indeed have a state religion, and it is not Christianity.

122

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]lucasa wrote:

…A fundamental aspect of science is that truth is unknowable. Moreover, even if there is a/the truth and it is knowable; the vicious, random, and ad hoc nature of evolution kinda precludes the notion that we’ve somehow evolved to know it. And the belief that we evolved to know or somehow find the truth is pretty profoundly religious in and of itself…
[/quote]

Indeed.[/quote]

I could buy some truths are unknowable , It is the truth that the sun has risen everyday in our lives and it has set every evening [/quote]

Funny that this is the example you would use, in that in actuality, the sun has never risen nor set, but has only appeared todo so because of the rotation of the earth. A scientist alerted us to this truth, and was promptly arrested and forced to recant it by a theocracy. Only one approved version of the truth, remember, and that wasn’t it.

123

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

My contention is that idolatry is not synonymous with atheism: you can reject belief in the Abrahamic God, but if you create your own god…[/quote]

I’m sorry?

[/quote]

Idolatry is the worship of gods that are fashioned by man. What part of this is unclear?[/quote]

And who, that Pat brought up, literally did this?
[/quote]

I couldn’t tell from the photo he posted the nationality of the pile of corpses he was implying were murdered by an atheist regime: they must have been either Soviet or Chinese, which is why my response referenced Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, who created a monolithic state as the replacement for God, and tjemselves as semidivine personages. My contention, for the third time, is that this is idolatry.

This was easy in both societies, because the Russians were already conditioned by the Russian Orthodox Church to regard the Tsar as a demigod, selected to rule over them by God himself. Note that the “atheist” Stalin (an Orthodox seminarian) never banned the Church, in fact kept close ties with the Church throughout his reign, even helped in appointing bishops. Stalin appealed to the Church to legitimize his rule, which it did. In Russia, if you wanted to emulate the tsar, and make yourself a godlike figure, you got the Church behind you.

Nikita Krushchev criticized Stalin for this… long after The Boss was dead, of course:

“It is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of Marxism-Leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god.”

Stalinist Russia was not an atheist state. The State was God, and Stalin was Demigod.

In Confucian China, the ancestors were revered almost as gods. They were prayed to, and shrines were built in every home to honor them. You can still see these shrines in homes throughout China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam… anywhere Confucianism had any influence. Mao inaugurated a campaign to discredit and criticize Confucian teaching that gave legitimacy to feudalism, but he capitalized (no pun intended) on the propensity of Chinese peasants to idolize (literally) their ancestors, and co-opted ancestor worship as Mao-worship.

Mao may not have literally believed himself a god (you never know, he was pretty batty) but he certainly encouraged his followers to think of him as one.

I know how hard it must be to let go of the comforting fiction that Mao and Stalin were atheists, and that their societies were atheist societies, because as soon as we let go of this fiction, we imagine that we will lose a bit of the moral high ground we have built on the bones of the dusty old syllogism “Mao and Stalin were atheists, they did atrocious things, therefore atheism promotes atrocity”, but I think a more compelling case for your particular religion can be made without resorting to patently false arguments.

The fact is, all belief systems have the potential to commit atrocity, if wielded by demagogues with armies. Even pacifist religions and egalitarian economic systems.

Especially if these demagogues corrupt these belief systems to aggrandize themselves with power and adulation that rightly belongs only to God.

124

Goodness gracious man here come Karado to cut through the mustard…The Soviet Union was evil.
There…that was easy.

Any government that murders it’s own citizens is evil, so gives a flyin’ fuck about their philosophies
or their demigods…all one need to see are RESULTS of a Government…If they live in relative peace and prosperity,
it’s a pretty good fuckin’ system…If they live in misery under communism, one doesn’t need to get all ‘eggheaded’ about it
explaining the nooks and crannies of their fucked up systems…it’s just a fucked up system, so DON’T do what THOSE
countries did and we’ll be fine.
There, that was easy.

Don’t make me come back here and cut through the mustard again, I need to put some more
BBQ Ribs on my Traeger smoker.

125

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

I couldn’t tell from the photo he posted the nationality of the pile of corpses he was implying were murdered by an atheist regime: they must have been either Soviet or Chinese, which is why my response referenced Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, who created a monolithic state as the replacement for God, and tjemselves as semidivine personages. My contention, for the third time, is that this is idolatry.

This was easy in both societies, because the Russians were already conditioned by the Russian Orthodox Church to regard the Tsar as a demigod, selected to rule over them by God himself. Note that the “atheist” Stalin (an Orthodox seminarian) never banned the Church, in fact kept close ties with the Church throughout his reign, even helped in appointing bishops. Stalin appealed to the Church to legitimize his rule, which it did. In Russia, if you wanted to emulate the tsar, and make yourself a godlike figure, you got the Church behind you.

Nikita Krushchev criticized Stalin for this… long after The Boss was dead, of course:

“It is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of Marxism-Leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god.”

Stalinist Russia was not an atheist state. The State was God, and Stalin was Demigod.

In Confucian China, the ancestors were revered almost as gods. They were prayed to, and shrines were built in every home to honor them. You can still see these shrines in homes throughout China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam… anywhere Confucianism had any influence. Mao inaugurated a campaign to discredit and criticize Confucian teaching that gave legitimacy to feudalism, but he capitalized (no pun intended) on the propensity of Chinese peasants to idolize (literally) their ancestors, and co-opted ancestor worship as Mao-worship.

Mao may not have literally believed himself a god (you never know, he was pretty batty) but he certainly encouraged his followers to think of him as one.

I know how hard it must be to let go of the comforting fiction that Mao and Stalin were atheists, and that their societies were atheist societies, because as soon as we let go of this fiction, we imagine that we will lose a bit of the moral high ground we have built on the bones of the dusty old syllogism “Mao and Stalin were atheists, they did atrocious things, therefore atheism promotes atrocity”, but I think a more compelling case for your particular religion can be made without resorting to patently false arguments.

The fact is, all belief systems have the potential to commit atrocity, if wielded by demagogues with armies. Even pacifist religions and egalitarian economic systems.

Especially if these demagogues corrupt these belief systems to aggrandize themselves with power and adulation that rightly belongs only to God. [/quote]

Stalin literally declared himself a god? The State? What was the supernatural aspect?

126

Once again, Karado, you lead me to believe that you are the anti-Voltaire: “I don’t understand what you say, but I will defend to the death my right to disapprove of it!”

Tend to your barbecue sauce, my friend. Flailing wildly in the vicinity of the mustard is not exactly the same as cutting it.

127

I mean, the League of Militant Atheists?

128

As for the Orthodox, am I mistaken that easing up on them was a practical move in the face of WWII? I mean, before that it was no picnic.

129

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

This is a question I’ve been thinking about for some years, and if you are interested I will give you my answer. It’s a great question, and I wish I had time right now to give it my full attention, but I promise to come back to it and give you the long answer.

Suffice to say, I believe that the United States does indeed have a state religion, and it is not Christianity. [/quote]

Yeah, take your time. If you have a short summary I’d treat it us such. That is, I won’t jump on it as if you were presenting a fully fleshed out position. I understand if you want to take the time to do it justice, so to speak. Still, I’m curious.

130

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Stalin literally declared himself a god? The State? What was the supernatural aspect?
[/quote]

I don’t know why this is so difficult for you.

Anything worshipped, that is given the same kind of religious reverence and adoration due to God, is, for all practical purposes, the god of those who worship it, whether it is lightning, the moon, a hunk of carved rock, money, a charismatic figure, or even an idea or a political entity built on an idea.

A Christian would, of course, identify these as “false gods”. I have chosen to use the word “idols”.

An idol does not need to have actual supernatural powers if the people who worship it believe that it does.

The tsar of Russia was considered a demigod by his illiterate peasant followers, because this was the view encouraged by the Russian Orthodox Church.

Stalin’s cozy relationship with the church made it possible for him to slip easily into the mantle of Communist Tsar, with the same semidivine status as Tsar Nicolas.

If you read the gospels, you will find that Jesus never literally declared himself a god either (and “he who has seen me has seen the Father” doesnt count), but that doesn’t prevent two billion people from worshipping him all the same.

Oh, and in anticipation of the inevitable flame-laden question (not necessarily from you, Sloth), “are yew insinuatin’ that Jeeesus wuz the same as STALIN?!?!?!?”, my answer is no.

Jesus was a better communist than Stalin ever was.

131

In Stalin’s own words:

“Comrades! I want to propose a toast to our patriarch, life and sun, liberator of nations, architect of socialism, Coryphaeus of Science, father of nations, brilliant genius of humanity, great Architect of Communism, gardener of human happiness…Josef Vissarionovich Stalin, and I hope this is the first and last speech made to that genius this evening!”

So no, perhaps he never literally said “I am a god”, but sheesh, even Jesus never sang his own praises so loudly.

132

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
super gay apocalypse[/quote]

I, for one, look forward to seeing how the end of the world can be made fabulous.

133

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And every demagogue, from Darius to Caesar to Hirohito to Mao, has demanded to be worshipped, in some cases literally, as a god. Deities don’t have to be supernatural: animists worship deities that are entirely natural, and a pagan may worship personifications of natural forces and celestial bodies. As has been said ad nauseam, a monotheist is simply an atheist who is willing to make one exception. [/quote]

I’m sorry, it sounds too much like apologetics for atheism.

Again, atheism is a disbelief in dieties.

Funny enough, in away, you’re attempting to excommunicate atheists from the fold, though they still hold to that defining tenet. Are there dogmas and tenets to atheism besides what defines it? Could you share those? Is there a council or pope-like figure to defend them?[/quote]

Inasmuch as I am not an atheist, I would not presume to speak for them. If you are interested in the dogmas and tenets of atheism, I refer you to the writings of the Four Horsemen of Bigflamer’s avatar: Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Dan Dennet and Sam Harris. They can explain what they believe and more importantly what they don’t, far better than I could.

My contention is that idolatry is not synonymous with atheism: you can reject belief in the Abrahamic God, but if you create your own god from clay, metal, wood, or economic/political philosophy, and worship it as the only acceptible source of truth, then you are no atheist. If you establish a state based on the worship of this god, then you have a theocracy. [/quote]

Atheist worship an Idol…Science.

134

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Oh, come on. A little theocracy never hurt anybody. [/quote]

Yeah! Atheist states are far kinder…[/quote]

Where is that, Russia? China? Two societies that definitely forced the religion of Communism down their citizens throats. The very essence of theocracy. [/quote]

Check your facts. Atheism was in fact state policy of the Soviet Union. It saw religion as a threat to the state and was to be eliminated in as much as it could be.
Communism is much less a religion than atheism. It’s simple a failed political philosophy. [/quote]
[/quote]

Facts are stubborn things. They often don’t fit the propaganda you read.

135

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Oh, come on. A little theocracy never hurt anybody. [/quote]

Yeah! Atheist states are far kinder…[/quote]

Where is that, Russia? China? Two societies that definitely forced the religion of Communism down their citizens throats. The very essence of theocracy. [/quote]

Check your facts. Atheism was in fact state policy of the Soviet Union. It saw religion as a threat to the state and was to be eliminated in as much as it could be.
Communism is much less a religion than atheism. It’s simple a failed political philosophy. [/quote]

Pat, all true theocracies attempt to hold a monopoly on the Truth, view any other other belief system as a threat to the authority of the state, and attempt to repress practioners of any other religion by branding them infidels and heretics. The Soviet version of the Muslim shahada would be “there is no god but the State, and Lenin is its Prophet”.

Communism as enumerated by Marx and Engels was an economic/political philosophy, but in the hands of demagogues like Lenin and Stalin and Mao became an unquestionable dogma. These demagogues were the infallible Apostles of the State: question their ex cathedra pronouncements and you are a heretic. Reject the first commandment of the State (“thou shalt not have no other economic/political philosophy before me”) and you are an infidel. In either case, you would be marginalized and eradicated.

Lenin’s corpse was worshipped by throngs of True Believers with no less ardor than an idol of Baal or image of Christ on the Cross, and the Red Army’s war’s of conquest were carried out with no less religious fervor than any jihad or Crusade.

The State was god. Russia and China were theocracies. Period.

[/quote]

You’re really trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. I find it comical that new atheists try to distance themselves from the violence of the mindset in the past by calling it something else. It is what it is. For whatever violence may have been done by people in the name of religion, the horrific toll of militant atheism was more, way more.
You can accept the facts or deny them, but they are still the facts and there is nothing you can do about it.

136

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[/quote]

I actually made that face when I saw Pat’s post. [/quote]

Oh, so it’s cool for atheists to repeat the same shit over and over again, but theists constantly have to come up with new and different facts to dispute them? What bullshit. You repeat the same crap, I will use the same counter claims. I don’t have to change the facts, they are on my side.

137

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And every demagogue, from Darius to Caesar to Hirohito to Mao, has demanded to be worshipped, in some cases literally, as a god. Deities don’t have to be supernatural: animists worship deities that are entirely natural, and a pagan may worship personifications of natural forces and celestial bodies. As has been said ad nauseam, a monotheist is simply an atheist who is willing to make one exception. [/quote]

I’m sorry, it sounds too much like apologetics for atheism.

Again, atheism is a disbelief in dieties.

Funny enough, in away, you’re attempting to excommunicate atheists from the fold, though they still hold to that defining tenet. Are there dogmas and tenets to atheism besides what defines it? Could you share those? Is there a council or pope-like figure to defend them?[/quote]

Inasmuch as I am not an atheist, I would not presume to speak for them. If you are interested in the dogmas and tenets of atheism, I refer you to the writings of the Four Horsemen of Bigflamer’s avatar: Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Dan Dennet and Sam Harris. They can explain what they believe and more importantly what they don’t, far better than I could.

My contention is that idolatry is not synonymous with atheism: you can reject belief in the Abrahamic God, but if you create your own god from clay, metal, wood, or economic/political philosophy, and worship it as the only acceptible source of truth, then you are no atheist. If you establish a state based on the worship of this god, then you have a theocracy. [/quote]

I cannot look up to intelectual half-wits. Seems pointless to me.

138

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

The fact is, all belief systems have the potential to commit atrocity, if wielded by demagogues with armies. Even pacifist religions and egalitarian economic systems.

[/quote]

Then why did you bring it up?

140

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Oh, come on. A little theocracy never hurt anybody. [/quote]

Yeah! Atheist states are far kinder…[/quote]

Where is that, Russia? China? Two societies that definitely forced the religion of Communism down their citizens throats. The very essence of theocracy. [/quote]

Check your facts. Atheism was in fact state policy of the Soviet Union. It saw religion as a threat to the state and was to be eliminated in as much as it could be.
Communism is much less a religion than atheism. It’s simple a failed political philosophy. [/quote]
[/quote]

Facts are stubborn things. They often don’t fit the propaganda you read.[/quote]

Your “facts” in these discussions, are nothing more than biased correlations, and not “facts” at all. It’s telling of your religious bias in that you do not attribute these atrocities to statism, socialism, communism, etc.; rather you and all of your apologist christian friends choose to tack it onto the face of atheism instead. Why? well, as I’ve already said, you NEED these to be atheist atrocities in order to water down the the horrific atrocities that have been carried out since forever in the name of some god or another. Well, guess what,patty cakes, blind faith in an ideology (and the head of that ideology) is what kills, not the secular/atheistic ideals of free inquiry, skepticism, and the pursuit if ideas for their own sake.

If your argument held any water at all, then the most atheistic countries of Scandinavia wouldn’t have the highest standard of living in the world, highest equality, literacy, longevity, low crime, female political participation, etc. If you were right, then Norway and Sweden should be invading countries and occupying them with the regularity of the Olympic games, with troops and basses around the globe and drones killing innocent women and children.

No,…wait. that’s the United States. My bad.

You could end this argument RIGHT NOW, if only you would point out which regime has ever said “There is no God, therefore do this”. Oh, and here’s a protip; don’t try to include Hitler, as the Nazi Party retained strong ties with the Roman Catholic church (there were plenty of crosses about with swastikas on them) and Hitler even saw Jesus as a role model for recognizing the Jews as enemies.