Tyler (and everyone), no one can earn salvation. It must be given to us seeing as how all of us are imperfect. It is the gift of God, and not of works, lest any man should boast. However, f you truely do love Christ you wont be rampaging in the streets like Alex in A Clockwork Orange. Quite the opposite. The closer you get to Christ (have a personal relationship with Him) the more you will do the right thing. Will you achieve perfection while still here? (I know I’ve made more than my share of mistakes and sins) No of course not. Just saying “God forgive me” is only words. He knows if a person means it in his/her heart or not. If anyone has any questions simply ask for guidance and wisdom of Him as not me or anyone else can bring you closer to Christ. Only he can do that you if want. It’s all up to any of us to make that decision. Take care 
Mr. Tolerant, you seem like a singularly humorless person. Hathor was indeed an old Egyptian God, who happens to have a large underground following to this day.
Lightandfluffy, upon review of the Board, your grade is hereby changed from a “D” to an “incomplete”, and Mr. Tolerant has taken a leave of absence to sit in a small room looking angry and outraged. Please continue.
There is more required to gain salvation than to just believe in Christ. First of all, most Christian religions today teach that Christ is God. He is not. He is the son of God as he himself said many of times.
Paul said in 1 Cor 6 Do not be misled, nor idolators, nor adulteres, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers will inherit God’s kingdom." What is God’s kingdom? Did you know that the bible says that only 144,000 will go to heaven? Did you know that the original purpose for the earth was for humans to live on it? Adam and Eve were never told they would go to heaven. The bible clearly says that God will turn the earth into a paradise and that humans would live forever upon it (Ps. 37)
You tell me that all these Christians who regularly have sex outside of marriage really believe in Christ, yet don’t live by the bible, which Christ called the word of God. Is that faith? No. Acts 15:28,29 says to abstain from blood. Yet there are blood drives at Christian churches all the time. That is blasphemy. In the time of Jesus apostles, there was one true religion. They had a governing body and they believed uniformly. They did because there is only one way to worship God. Today there are thousands of so-called Christian religions. Most don’t teach what the bible clearly teaches. They teach hellfire (everlasting torture, although that isn’t popular anymore so hellfire has been softened a little), they teach immortality of the soul (the bible says that our bodies are souls and die when we die, the soul is us not some sort of spirit), they teach that Christ is God, they allow blood transfusions, the don’t preach the good news of the kingdom, they support political governments. The list goes on. The reason why so many of the posts on this message board preach atheism or that Christ is just a good man or a figment of the imagination, is because majority of Christian religions and thier followers have no substance; no solid belief or accurate knowledge from the bible. Most Christians today are hypocrits. They talk about living good lives, but then do things that have always and will always disgust God. You are doing something that disgusts God, and you tell Him that you believe.
Gal. 6:7,8 “Do not be misled, God is not one to be mocked. For whateve a man is sowing, this he will also reap; because he who is sowing with a view to his flesh will reap corruption from his flesh, but he who is sowing with a view to the spirit will reap everlasting life from the spirit.”
Here is one. Christ told his followers to at Matthew 28:19,20 to “go therefore and makes disciples of all the earth baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” 1 John 5:3, “For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments . . .” If you aren’t living by the word of God (teachings preserved in the bible) which were explemplified by Christ, then you have not accepted him, you do not love him.
Paul said that faith without works is dead. Where is the proof of your faith? Is it in your vulgar speech? Lack of morals? Nationalism? God does have standards. We must live up to those standards as best we can. One requirement is for us to follow in Christ footsteps. Christ preached, so should we. Christ led a moral life, se should we.
OK I’m back, you can all relax, as soon I get used to this time zone I’ll be back at the forum and explain everything.
PS I just can’t believe this new dremmel thingy
if we only had Sears back then.
Yes, you pretty much said it right. However, it isn’t believing in someone you’ve never met, because when you receive Him you will meet Him. A person receives Christ by repenting from his sin of unbelief and turning to God and His provision in the person of Jesus Christ. It is trusting Christ for His forgiveness at the cross, and for His promise of new life to all who believe. Salvation is by faith. “For by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Eph 2:8,9). Salvation is crossing over from death to life. “I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” (John 5:24). God provided life through the resurrection of Jesus. Salvation is being saved from the wages of sin (death) by the gift of God (life). “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 6:23). Before life could be given, sins had to be forgiven (taken away). God became a man and died in our place. He is the final sacrifice for our sins; He took away our sins. We have been (past tense) reconciled to God. God’s part: “All this is from God, who…was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.” (2 Cor 5:18,19). Man’s part: “We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Cor 5:20,21). Because we are saved by His life, the cross was not an end in itself, but a means of accomplishing the end – that of restoring life that had been lost through sin. “Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation…”(Col 1:21,22).
Another point here, it is a foregone conclusion that everyone has shattered the 10 commandments. Not one person is righteous in and of himself. We just act righteous. That’s where self-righteousness comes in called religion that annihilates anybody from ever coming to grips with the good news of Jesus. We have no ability to point fingers at people or judge people. We have no right to say “that person is worse than me”. No one can claim to be righteous except the righteousness given by God. The entire world is reduced to one condition–dead and lost. The issue isn’t how bad or good you are; it’s how dead you are. We’re all born into this world dead and in need of life. God told Adam and Eve “in the day you eat of the tree you shall surely die.” They ate. They died. They lived on for a while physically, but spiritually they immediately died because the life (spirit) of God left them. We later read that Adam “had a son in his own likeness, in his own image and named him Seth”. Seth was in the image of fallen Adam. God originally created Adam “in His own image, in the image of God”. Big difference between the image of Adam (after spiritual death) and the image of God. Spiritually dead continues to procreate spiritually dead. That’s why Jesus had to be conceived of the Holy Spirit (“virgin birth”); so He wouldn’t be born spiritually dead. Jesus was the only “living” person who had a life to give for us. People are not born today in the image of God. But when we are “born again” of the Spirit we become a new creation (John 1:13, John 3:3, 2 Cor 5:17).
We are told “the wages of sin is death” (Rom 6:23). After encountering the Law (10 commandments) I discover that I am a sinner already sentenced to death (but, if I’m proud and religious I think I’m keeping it all). “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10). “No one is justified by keeping the law” (Gal 2:16). “The purpose of the Law is to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.” (Gal 3:24). The Law is like a mirror showing us that our face is dirty and needs washed. When the Law has done its work in someone’s life the end result is that person realizing that he is hopelessly inadequate, a wretched person, guilty as a lawbreaker (dead man walking). The Law is good and holy and just, but when it flows through me it kills me because the problem is with me. Keep in mind that old covenant is before the cross; new covenant is after the cross. The old covenant is Law; the new covenant is Grace. Jesus taught under the old covenant, but proclaimed the new. Jesus buried people under the law in many of His teachings in the gospels. He said “be perfect” (Matt 5:48), “if you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery”, “if you hate you are guilty of murder”, “if you don’t forgive others, neither will God forgive you”. We could go on and on. Basically, people who thought they were doing pretty good keeping the Law (religious) didn’t have much to stand on after Jesus got through. Jesus tells us God is looking at your heart, not at what you are doing and saying. Many of Jesus’ teachings are not encouraging to us. However, after seeing our desperate need for a savior, we find it in Jesus. Jesus has taken our punishment (death). Because of Jesus, God casts our sins behind His back never to see them again. We are given the perfect righteousness of Jesus. God always perfectly loves and accepts you. There is no condemnation. You are a forgiven person. The question is, are you a forgiven dead person, or a forgiven live person. “It is for freedom (from the Law) that Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1). “Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” (Rom 10:4). A Christian is not different from the world because of actions, but because of what he believes. You can train a monkey to act. We will never be able to live a life of perfect love every minute. What we believe will translate into good actions as we let God’s life be lived out through us, but we don’t do that all the time. If the truth lives in us we can ignore it, but not deny it. If we act contrary to who we are (a new creation, child of God) we won’t be comfortable doing it, but can still choose to do it. You said “I have a hard time believing that…”. Grace is understood by revelation of the Spirit; but the natural mind can understand Law. What I am talking about does not have anything to do with Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, wearing robes, eating wafers, sprinkling water, keeping rules etc. I’m talking about practical, divine logic. We are born dead “in Adam”; we need life. Jesus came to give us LIFE, not just any life, God’s very own life in us. This is the very same resurrection life that turned the religious world upside down in Christ’s time. A life that is powerful and able to transform mere human existence into a meaningful exciting adventure. Christ Himself back in the man, our only hope of glory. “So it is written: ‘The first man Adam became a living being;’ the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.” (I Cor 15:45) “For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” (I Cor 15:21-22) “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.” (John 20:31)
Am i the only one who has notice that Yo is just full of jehova witness rhetoric?
To Yo… first off yes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But he is part of the trinity. Three in one. He part of the trinity of God. He is the saviour. And no nothing else is needed for salvation. You mentioned that “nor idolators, nor adulteres, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers will inherit God’s kingdom”. Yes this is true, however you you truely worship Him you will not being doing such things. Nevertheless God made the Ten Commandments for a purpose. Not only as the law but to show up we could NOT keep them on our own. Who has achieved perfection? No one of course. Its proof we need a saviour. Anyone who adds that you need good works to be saved is not telling the truth. However god works is proof of your faith. It is NOT a requirement for salvation but its simple: if you love him you will obey him. You will not achieve perfection while down here but you’re heart will be in the right place. God will know whether a person is or not. And it does not say only 144,000 will be saved at all. You’re misinterpreting it. That is the 144,000 during the tribulation period not all of history. And yes Christians can be hypocrits. We ALL are. Isnt that obvious? Everyone who has ever lived is a hypocrite. Which is EXACTLY why we need a saviour. No you shouldn’t go on a sinful rampage but everyone is bound to sin; however minute. For now we’re stuck with this annoying curroptable flesh but have belief in that Jesus Christ and that he gave his life (once for alltime ot come) on the cross to wash away our sins and you SHALL be saved. Lastly, I repeat…I completely agree we should our lives the best we can as he commanded this. Even so we will still sin no matter how hard we try or how close to God we are. But no we should not be living IN sin. Because if we are its all just words. A wanted effort to do as he commands is proof, yes. Absolutely.
Cloak, regarding you statement that eveyone that every lived is a hypocrite. Would you mind explaining that?
When one preaches the gospel, one must be sensitive to the dictates of Hathor. Hathor, the celestial bovine, is the bringer of life and sustenance. Hathor feeds with her flesh and nourishes with her milk.
My friends and I celebrate various Hathor holidays. On March 10th, of each year, we celebrate the birth of Hathor. We celebrate by waving wands and covering ourselves with cow pelts. On July 30, we celebrate the first time that Hathor was milked. We celebrate by donning white togas with cows enblazoned upon them. Then we find a local farm and milk as many cows as possible. We then drink the milk and allow the milk to cleanse our souls. Finally, we celebrate the first time that Hathor was impregnated. We do this by multiple copulations followed my a mellow period of harp-playing reflection.
Ok, I did not interpret salvation. I said that 144,000 would go to heaven. I never said that only 144,000 would gain salvation.
God is not Christ. Nowhere in the bible is the word trinity found. Neither Jesus nor his apostles mentioned it.
Am I full of Jehovah’s Witness rhetoric? Let me ask you something, because my beliefs are similar to Jehovah’s Witnesses, that means I am one? I do know a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are good people who live there beliefs. Someday I might even become one. Tell you what, next time they come to your door, ask them to show you that not everyone goes to heaven. Ask them reasonably and ask good questions. Test them out and see if they make sense. They make sense to me. How come I’m not one of them? Maybe it is because I do the things that many of you do and those very things are condemned by God and by Jehovah’s Witnesses. I wouldn’t be allowed to become one.
Trinity is not found in as a word but its the CONCEPT is present in the bible. Plus making a human reference to a “trinity” is not comparable with the trinity of God. Simply because one cannot fathom this; it is beyond our comprehension. Read 1 John 5:7. (KJV) To ShitDisturber…what I am implying is that we’re all sinners in one way or another. We’ve all been hypocritical about one thing or the other at least once. We usually do not recognize it though while its happening; sometimes never. We’ve all exist with corruptable flesh but praise God he sent his Son to die for our sins and thus be “pardoned” for trespasses against Him. Take care guys
I believe Jesus is the Son of God and every word in the Bible is true. I know this, and I know I am going to heaven for trusting in Him.
To Lightandfluffy: Why did you start posting to me about the divine bovine? How does it relate to what the topic is? I realize you’re trying to be funny, I guess. Voltaire did religious Satire much better To everyone else: Want an example of Zealotry, fanaticism, and Dogmatism? Check out the court which just ruled the Pledge of Allegiance was unconstitutional due to the words “under god.” We have troops fighting a War, and these zealots want to outlaw the Pledge in schools because of two words? Does that mean they believe the constitution is unconstitutional now? "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness…” Do harmless historical traditions have to be destroyed in the name of dogmatism? This was not a case of being FORCED to say the Pledge. The father of this child wanted noone else to be able say it because of two words. I suppose those two words caused him and his daughter such grave harm…sigh. And we’re the zealots? Sorry, won’t generalize, but this is getting stupid.
Cloakmanor,
1 John 5:7 hardly proves the trinity. That verse says that there are three witness bearers. Look at verse 5, the apostle John calls Jesus the Son of God. What about at Jesus baptism? How was it that called Jesus, “my son”? Why would God make His identity so misunderstandable? Jesus is talking to Mary in John 19:17, “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God’””. Why would Jesus call himself God and refer to himself in the third person? He wouldn’t. Revelation 1:1, “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him . . .” Why is it that at the beginning of nearly every book of the New Testament, the author refers to both God and Christ as seperate people? Ephesians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . .” If you do some research, historical research on the Trinity, you can see that it is a pagan teaching that goes back before Christ ever walked on the earth. You will also see that it wasn’t a church teaching until a couple of hundred years after Christ. Research the reasons why Emperor Constantine pushed so hard for that teaching to be adopted by the church. On a reasonable examination of both the scriptures and history, it is clear to see that the Trinity does not exist. One more point. As Christians you and I rely on Christ’s shed blood right? His blood covers your sins and my sins. He had to die in order for this to be true. Christ did die and was dead for three days. He was then resurrected. By who? Himself? He didn’t really die then and you and I are fools. Don’t say that this is some sort of divine mystery and we can’t comprehend it. That is just a way to avoid the issue. The concept of the Trinity is not found in the bible. Nowhere is God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit clearly said to be three in one.
Just wanted to present something on understanding the concept of the trinity. But first let me say that I’m not sure of the trinity concept, as I’ve seen good arguements on both sides. To my mind, however, it really doesn’t matter. At Jesus’ baptism, God said “This is my son, listen to him.” And Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” That’s good enough for me. Now onto the concept of trinity. I heard this explanation a couple years ago, and it stuck. It was first written by a monk explaining geometry to students. Imagine you live in a two-dimensional world. If some one in a three dimensional world were to put three fingers into that two-dimensional world, you’d see three distinct lines where those three fingers contacted your two-dimensional world, but you would have absolutely NO frame of reference to comprehend the fact that these lines were only manifestations of three fingers from a single hand. Some theological scholars have determined that God exists as something like a 10-dimensional being (don’t ask me to explain this, as it’s just a reference I heard, have no understanding of how they arrived at that number). If that is true, it would stand to reason that we have no frame of reference to comprehend God.
Never really understood the whole blood transfusion thing with Jehovah’s Witnesses. If their only objection to it is some quote in the Bible, then why are they not practicing the eye for an eye thing too? It says that specifically in the Bible. When somebody slams the door in their face, they should come back and go postal on their asses for it, right? I’m not attacking the Bible at all here, but there are parts to not be taken literally if we’re to live in civilized society. Selective interpretation is a complete mystery to me. Somebody please try to explain it to me.
DocT,
The blood issue goes way beyond a single scripture. Yes you are right, not everything should be taken literally. Remember the eye for an eye thing is not in the New Testament. That wasn't meant for you and me to live by. That was a punishment in the O.T. If you purposely blind me, then you would be blinded. If you murder, you would be killed. It is more of a principle.
As far as the blood issue, you would have to ask one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I probably would explain it incorrectly. Here is a link to their website that explains it. If you really want to know, take the time to read it. http://www.watchtower.org/ follow the link on blood. Here is the short version. The blood of Christ covers all sins. His blood replaced the system of worship found in the O.T. The Jews would sacrifice an animal. That animals blood would cover their sins. To take a blood transfusion would be to deny or belittle the value of Christ’s shed blood. Without his sacrifice, there would be no hope of heaven or of being forgiven our sins. Read the link I gave you. It makes more sense than I can.
One thing I would like to say is that sometimes a group of people look like fanatics. Oftentimes when we let them explain themselves we realize that they are not fanatics, but live their beliefs. Of course a good percentage of the time, they are fanatics. Take Jehovah’s Witnesses for example, they all go door to door, don’t celebrate birthdays or holidays, they don’t take blood, but they also don’t form militias or fly planes into buildings and they are not terrorists. I’m not meaning to be on my soap box, but one thing I’ve learned from people I work with, from school and college, is that we all get worked up over issues that are dear to us, that doesn’t make us fanatics. I think that we just need to be a little bit more reasonable.
brider,
I agree with you completely. I have no frame of reference to understand God. I had a math teacher in college that was describing forumulas that involved many different dimensions. He said we could only understand 3, mayber four. Those dimesions exist, but we can’t understand them. I think it is the same with God. We can’t really understand Him. That is why in the bible whenever he has had descriptions written about Himself, they always remind us of something we can understand. The bible describes His qualities, and the physical descriptions include His eyes or hands, even His nose. If I remember right, there is a scripture that describes His reaction when His servants are mistreated. I think is is Malachi that says that when someone mistreats His servants, it is like poking Him in the eye.
This doesn’t change the fact that He wants us to understand Him correctly. It does make a difference if we think of Him as a Trinity or as Jehovah or as Lord or as Christ. God has always had a way of worship that is acceptable. If we don’t worship Him correctly, then our worship is unacceptable.
www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm
I am curious as to your opinion of this article.
Think about it, do you, in a real practical, everyday sense, even want to live forever inside the pearly gates? C’mon! Do you realize what that means? Most people are bored with life after 70 years. What would you do when you are 70,341? I want to live now, be happy and never hurt anyone intentionally. After that, as far as my concern, the rest is crap. The juice from a sweet orange dripping down your chin. Sitting in the shade as butterflies dance nearby. Letting cool water from a stream run through your fingers. When your child says, Hi, Daddy, I Love You. That’s the real deal.
No. No. No. I really want everlasting life. I crave it. Can you imagine the afterlife without my input? That would be a drab and distressing place. I plan to have a family in the afterlife. Best of luck getting in.