Edited.
I don’t want to get into this.
bump.
Bricknyce:
Although this thread didn’t get stickied, I feel like it belongs in The Best of T-Nation. Would you mind if I added it?
Yes, please add it.
Thank you.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Yeah, here we go - the DC posse might come on here and say, “Whatcha talkin’ bout? All of us DC soljas do only 1 exacize pa muscle gwoup! OG Dante said itz OK fo’ us ta do 1 exacize pa muscle gwoup!”
Good for you then! If you have success with DC, than who am I to say stop doing it or that others shouldn’t give it a shot.
Sorry about that. I get carried away sometimes because we have to watch what we write here sometimes. Some people get very offended over opinions and beliefs on training methods.
[/quote]
Haha, why u alwayz gotta pic on us DC guyz? 
Seriously though, good thread on the traditional style split.
Ever hear of reverse pyramid training? I used it a few years ago when I only typical split routines and my strength levels went up pretty fast probably due to the heavy lifting at the beginning. Each day used to last about 45 to an hour if I remember correctly. Just wondered you take on it.
First off, awesome thread- I’m always interested to read these type of things as, for the most part, it gives me an insight into experienced and knowledgeable bodybuilders’ mindsets and approaches to training, as well as helping to clear up a lot of the shit that so many myths are formed around, so thank you for posting it. Brick, I was looking at one of your replies to a different thread (Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness) and wanted to ask a question regarding it. With your experience, do you really think that dropping an exercise which the majority would label as ‘essential’ benefits an individual if they don’t get the proper feeling of the muscle working?? Like with the poster in that other thread, I too have problems with benching, and have tried and tried to re-adjust and tweak form to get the feeling from it, yet have been unsuccessful. On the machine bench, however, I feel my chest muscles working every single second of each rep, and would far favour the machine over the barbell. Do you think that, regardless of the supposed highly effective nature of a particular exercise, if it doesn’t work for you (especially if your goal is more bodybuilding than strength training,) then go with the preferred alternative? Is that part of the nature of becoming a bodybuilder, finding what works and going with it??
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Ever hear of reverse pyramid training? I used it a few years ago when I only typical split routines and my strength levels went up pretty fast probably due to the heavy lifting at the beginning. Each day used to last about 45 to an hour if I remember correctly. Just wondered you take on it.[/quote]
I’ve heard of it, and no one does it anymore. The only thing remotely similar is ramping up to 1 or 2 all-out blast sets and then doing a back-off set of high reps (15+) - what some like to call a widowmaker these days. I don’t do that sort of thing. Perhaps it works, but I don’t do it.
What did you schedule look like?
Why are you so pressed for time that you can only perform 30-minute workouts four times per week? If you’re that pressed for time, and have to do things that are either obligatory or of more importance, why not give up the thought of being so jacked, understand what you can achieve in the limited time you have, and follow a general fitness routine that consists of either a TBT or upper-lower split?
See my post regarding lifestyle and priorities. You can’t get water out of a stone! So if you can’t get the appropriate time to succeed in becoming TRULY jacked (eg, 220+# with average height) and strong, then fuck it!
I’ve admitted ad nauseum, ad infinitum that there ARE people who don’t have the time to train for the appropriate amount of time for bodybuilding (4 to 6 sessions per week, sometimes with added cardio after workouts or on off days). If that’s some of you people, face it! Give up trying to get water out of a stone and follow a routine that suits your needs!
A large part of succeeding in bodybuilding is setting up your LIFE so that you can be a bodybuilder. If you work 60+ hours per week with odd or on-call hours and shifting schedule; have kids, a wife, and a house; can’t get access to quality food whenever you desire because of your job or lifestyle; and consider stuff like socializing or just friggin’ relaxing in the the spare time you do have - if you’re someone like that, then take some (or perhaps A LOT of) goddamn pressure off yourself and quit thinking of becoming jacked!
It’s almost like a burger flipper dreaming of becoming a millionaire! They can’t! Don’t got the resources, don’t got the ability, don’t got the position.
Understand what I mean?
Watermelon: “With your experience, do you really think that dropping an exercise which the majority would label as ‘essential’ benefits an individual if they don’t get the proper feeling of the muscle working??”
Me: Correct. Why perform an exercise for what you’re after - bigger muscles. If you want a bigger chest and flat barbell bench presses don’t produce this result, why continue doing it? People are made up differently. If you have a barrel-like chest and/or short arms, then you very well might get significant pec growth with flat benches. If you’re arms-dominant, can’t get a pump in your pecs to save your life, and have a narrow torso, you might get far more benefit from exercise and methods that engage the pecs more - pre-exhaust, machine presses, dumbbell press variations, machine and dumbbell flys, cable crossovers, and decline and incline barbell presses.
This doesn’t apply to powerlifting! You MUST compete in the bench press in that case, and feeling that particular exercise in your pecs doesn’t matter at all. Granted, one might be weak in the bottom position because of weak pecs and lack of muscle mass, but that problem is treated differently by performing dips, dumbbell bench presses, speed benches with a pause on the chest, cambered bar bench presses.
And what is essential is what’s essential for you to get to your goal, not what the herd thinks! If squats don’t give you the quads you want, then fuck 'em! Same goes for all the other “staples”. For me, the exercises I recommended in the first situation were essential for making my chest bigger.
Same goes for effective. If something (bench presses in your case) doesn’t give the desired result (bigger pecs in your case), then how can it be considered effective for YOU?
I gotta say, it’s a relief to hear that sort of thing coming from a knowledgable lifter. For the most part the experience I’ve had when stating the difficulties I’ve had with some exercises is the whole “shut up and do it” mentality, for which reason I have kept at it and tried to tweak them to my advantage but still been unsuccessful. It’s good to know that there are some out there who have a more sensible ideology in regards to such things, so I appreciate your advice
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Ever hear of reverse pyramid training? I used it a few years ago when I only typical split routines and my strength levels went up pretty fast probably due to the heavy lifting at the beginning. Each day used to last about 45 to an hour if I remember correctly. Just wondered you take on it.[/quote]
I’ve heard of it, and no one does it anymore. The only thing remotely similar is ramping up to 1 or 2 all-out blast sets and then doing a back-off set of high reps (15+) - what some like to call a widowmaker these days. I don’t do that sort of thing. Perhaps it works, but I don’t do it.
What did you schedule look like?
Why are you so pressed for time that you can only perform 30-minute workouts four times per week? If you’re that pressed for time, and have to do things that are either obligatory or of more importance, why not give up the thought of being so jacked, understand what you can achieve in the limited time you have, and follow a general fitness routine that consists of either a TBT or upper-lower split?
See my post regarding lifestyle and priorities. You can’t get water out of a stone! So if you can’t get the appropriate time to succeed in becoming TRULY jacked (eg, 220+# with average height) and strong, then fuck it!
I’ve admitted ad nauseum, ad infinitum that there ARE people who don’t have the time to train for the appropriate amount of time for bodybuilding (4 to 6 sessions per week, sometimes with added cardio after workouts or on off days). If that’s some of you people, face it! Give up trying to get water out of a stone and follow a routine that suits your needs!
A large part of succeeding in bodybuilding is setting up your LIFE so that you can be a bodybuilder. If you work 60+ hours per week with odd or on-call hours and shifting schedule; have kids, a wife, and a house; can’t get access to quality food whenever you desire because of your job or lifestyle; and consider stuff like socializing or just friggin’ relaxing in the the spare time you do have - if you’re someone like that, then take some (or perhaps A LOT of) goddamn pressure off yourself and quit thinking of becoming jacked!
It’s almost like a burger flipper dreaming of becoming a millionaire! They can’t! Don’t got the resources, don’t got the ability, don’t got the position.
Understand what I mean? [/quote]
Yeah, I understand fully. I don’t by any means think I’m gonna get in the gym 4 days a week and look like Markus Ruhl or anything. Actually, my goals are nowhere near that, but that’s besides the point. I think I could probably squeeze a little more out of my workouts if I hit the gym closest to my work instead of the one closest to my home.
Ok, so 4 days a week you would recommend an upper/lower split then? I’m also guessing from your comments earlier that you’re not a fan of DC training. I’ve never personally tried it, but have always heard someone either rave about how great it is or lament about how much is sucks. I’ve personally used HIT, and I thought it sucked.
I can’t be a fan of it because I’ve never done it. I have no fame of reference; I’m neither a fan or a hater.
If you’re into general fitness, then an upper-lower split is a good idea. If you want to look like a bodybuilder, then you need a 4- to 6-day split.
Get Eric Cressey’s book Maximal Strength. It has great examples of upper-lower body routines for overall fitness. You can get pretty damn big too from them, considering they follow the Westside format of training (speed work, max effort training, assistance work).
What form of HIT did you use, and why do you think it sucks?
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I can’t be a fan of it because I’ve never done it. I have no fame of reference; I’m neither a fan or a hater.
If you’re into general fitness, then an upper-lower split is a good idea. If you want to look like a bodybuilder, then you need a 4- to 6-day split.
Get Eric Cressey’s book Maximal Strength. It has great examples of upper-lower body routines for overall fitness. You can get pretty damn big too from them, considering they follow the Westside format of training (speed work, max effort training, assistance work).
What form of HIT did you use, and why do you think it sucks? [/quote]
First off, let me say I’m the first guy to admit when I was totally wrong about something and that has been me in the last 6-12 months. After I hit 240 about a year and half ago I felt way too big and focused primarily on diet and weight loss. This is a big reason my gains dropped dramatically. I lost my focus of just lifting heavy, progressing, and eating big. I weighed in last evening at a dismal 195! Sure I had some injuries, but ultimately I’m the one to blame.
Second, reading through your posts really gave me a smack in the face as to what I was doing. I was stuck in the cycle of blaming every program because I failed to make gains. It’s funny, I’ve never heard of the ramping, other than in powerlifting stuff, but it seems to have been around forever. Seems to make perfect sense though.
Finally, I want to thank you for taking time out to answer my questions about how to seriously train. Sorry if I came off as an ass initially. I’ll probably stick to either an upper/lower split or maybe something like a push-pull-legs split. Oh, and I was using the Arthur Jones style of HIT training 3 fullbody routines with 8-12 exercises. I felt that trying to do 12 exercises to all out failure was not doing justice to any single lift.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Did you read what I wrote? I wrote that a fat intake should be split into 1/3 poly, 1/3 mon, and 1/3 saturated.
I don’t think you’re challenging me, but I know ENOUGH on nutriton being that I’m an RD, have completed a dietetic internship, and have a BS and pending MS in nutrition.[/quote]
Well then you really should not lump all fats that have more than one double bond into one category, treating them all the same, as if for example it would be desirable to have 33% of fat intake be linoleic acid or principally linoleic acid, or as if this would be equivalent to other diets also with 33% polyunsaturated fats but in quite different proportions.
I appreciate that there are all sorts of dietitians who don’t know any better and indeed lump fats together this way, but it has no merit with regard to how the human body metabolizes or responds to fats, and simply should not be done.
Additionally, the entire “ratio” principle is adding a complication that actually has no basis. Even if dealing with fats individually rather than invalidly lumping them into categories, what, because you consumed more oleic acid today, that means you need more GLA so as to maintain your ratio? Because you consumed more lauric acid therefore you need more DHA? No.
Besides, the only way to maintain the ratios would be with a calculator, which just isn’t needed. Putting it that way is also an overcomplication.
Also, as the general theme of the thread is the admirable one of trying to list what successful bb’ers in general have done, I just really don’t think it’s the case that most successful bb’ers have followed the 33/33/33 mono/poly/saturated fat rule, nor is ditching that suggested rule really going to set anyone back in being successful.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I can’t be a fan of it because I’ve never done it. I have no fame of reference; I’m neither a fan or a hater.
If you’re into general fitness, then an upper-lower split is a good idea. If you want to look like a bodybuilder, then you need a 4- to 6-day split.
[/quote]
I agree with almost everything you’ve said but how can you possible state that you “NEED” a 4-6 day split? Tell that to Dante, Dusty Hanshaw and a ton of other guys at IM.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I can’t be a fan of it because I’ve never done it. I have no fame of reference; I’m neither a fan or a hater.
If you’re into general fitness, then an upper-lower split is a good idea. If you want to look like a bodybuilder, then you need a 4- to 6-day split.
[/quote]
I agree with almost everything you’ve said but how can you possible state that you “NEED” a 4-6 day split? Tell that to Dante, Dusty Hanshaw and a ton of other guys at IM.com[/quote]
I don’t discuss DC because I’m not familiar with it. For this whole thread, I’ve gone over what the most successful bodybuilders done AS A WHOLE. I understand that most “DCers” lift three times per week.
Dorian Yates trained 3 times per week for his first year and half of bodybuilding. But again. I’m going over what MOST or NEARLY ALL of the best bodybuilders have done.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Did you read what I wrote? I wrote that a fat intake should be split into 1/3 poly, 1/3 mon, and 1/3 saturated.
I don’t think you’re challenging me, but I know ENOUGH on nutriton being that I’m an RD, have completed a dietetic internship, and have a BS and pending MS in nutrition.[/quote]
Well then you really should not lump all fats that have more than one double bond into one category, treating them all the same, as if for example it would be desirable to have 33% of fat intake be linoleic acid or principally linoleic acid, or as if this would be equivalent to other diets also with 33% polyunsaturated fats but in quite different proportions.
I appreciate that there are all sorts of dietitians who don’t know any better and indeed lump fats together this way, but it has no merit with regard to how the human body metabolizes or responds to fats, and simply should not be done.
Additionally, the entire “ratio” principle is adding a complication that actually has no basis. Even if dealing with fats individually rather than invalidly lumping them into categories, what, because you consumed more oleic acid today, that means you need more GLA so as to maintain your ratio? Because you consumed more lauric acid therefore you need more DHA? No.
Besides, the only way to maintain the ratios would be with a calculator, which just isn’t needed. Putting it that way is also an overcomplication.
Also, as the general theme of the thread is the admirable one of trying to list what successful bb’ers in general have done, I just really don’t think it’s the case that most successful bb’ers have followed the 33/33/33 mono/poly/saturated fat rule, nor is ditching that suggested rule really going to set anyone back in being successful.[/quote]
Bill:
I understand EXACTLY what you’re saying. Our education does include nutritional biochemistry and courses in nutrition metabolism. But you’re right, the only dietitians who stay on top of this sort of thing are those in food science and education and research, not those in clinical settings.
I didn’t mean that as an exact rule. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word “should be”. I meant as a general rule, there MIGHT be health benefits to varying fat sources. It’s what a few nutritionists and RDs recommend, including some on here in their written work - John Berardi, Lonnie Lowery, Will Brink, and son .
I don’t think it needs to be calculated. Perhaps a better way to put it would simply be “vary your fat sources”. And no, success in bodybuilding is not going to be hampered by not following this recommendation. Most bodybuilders just eat a lot from a handful of food choices - steak or chicken, rice and/or potatoes, protein powder, flax and olive oil. That’s it really.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I can’t be a fan of it because I’ve never done it. I have no fame of reference; I’m neither a fan or a hater.
If you’re into general fitness, then an upper-lower split is a good idea. If you want to look like a bodybuilder, then you need a 4- to 6-day split.
[/quote]
I agree with almost everything you’ve said but how can you possible state that you “NEED” a 4-6 day split? Tell that to Dante, Dusty Hanshaw and a ton of other guys at IM.[/quote]
I enjoy speaking with you this entire time too. But are you really going to nitpick on my word choices too? Should I go back and edit by replacing the word “need” with “you might or mostly will benefit from” (a four to six day split).
I’m not discussing DC training. I’m discussing traditional split routine training.
I guess it just bothers me whenever people use absolutes, especially in the face of clearly opposing evidence. I do get what you mean though and you’re right, this is about traditional splits. I do know plenty of big ass lifters who train 3x a week (even without DC) but most bodybuilders on a traditional split do go 4+x/week
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I don’t think it needs to be calculated. Perhaps a better way to put it would simply be “vary your fat sources”. And no, success in bodybuilding is not going to be hampered by not following this recommendation. Most bodybuilders just eat a lot from a handful of food choices - steak or chicken, rice and/or potatoes, protein powder, flax and olive oil. That’s it really. [/quote]
Agreed.
I think it’s a nice added factor to take care of DHA, EPA, GLA (if older), and lauric acid but paying particular attention to these is not necessary to being successful in bb’ing and won’t really add pounds. It’s more a quality of life and general health thing, though if the DHA/EPA helps a given individual with inflammation issues that could well aid results, and lauric acid – for which coconut oil is a rich source – can aid with fat loss but is hardly mandatory for it.
But to be clear, your above description will get the job done in general and most who are getting good results in bb’ing are doing no more than that with regard to fats.