[quote]SteelyD wrote:
BEST THREAD[/quote]
No…but now, WE DANCE!!
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
BEST THREAD[/quote]
No…but now, WE DANCE!![/quote]
[quote]anonym wrote:
Are you implying many “full housers” aren’t at a high enough body fat to qualify for this label? Or many of the people on this forum bulking up right now?
[/quote]
Nope. I am saying specifically once again THAT FAT ALONE DOES NOT HAVE A DIRECT AFFECT ON INSULIN RESISTANCE FROM WHAT i HAVE SEEN IN STUDIES when dealing with trained individuals who are NOT obese or heavy enough to hamper conditioning.
[quote]
So, if you can manage to keep up without relying on ONLY the obese, we can move forward, though just to be clear I am completely certain you were talking out of you ass with the “studies we’ve seen” comment.[/quote]
I surely wasn’t. We are talking about a population of trained individuals. BMI studies do not represent us well.
[quote]
Look. We already know about the biochemical and endocrine aspects of fat tissue; numerous examples have been given in this thread. We also know that most (not all) of these biochemical and endocrine aspects have negative effects on insulin sensitivity, and have defined various mechanisms by which they exert their effects. We also know that these negative biochemical and endocrine aspects are strongly correlated with adipose tissue in a positive fashion.
Are you arguing against this? If not, then what?[/quote]
I already stated what several times.
[quote]
You already agree that obesity leads to hormonal changes yet don’t want to admit that we ALSO know being overweight does,[/quote]
Uh, I see those as being nearly the same since BMI studies do not usually represent extremely muscular people
[quote]
Do you genuinely not feel that there is a sliding scale here, that this sort of thing doesn’t just crop up past a certain threshold but rather develops insidiously over years of increasing fat gain?[/quote]
The point I made was that it is a CONDITION of the human body based on may factors.
[quote]
You argue about “trained” athletes… so, OK: for any individual athlete at a given level of largely immutable daily activity and behavior, do you honestly feel that no change WHATSOEVER in his/her insulin sensitivity could be quantitatively determined if he/she went from full house to lean?[/quote]
I am sure there would be changes, just not from body fat a lone in terms of “x amount of fat gain equals x amount of insulin resistance”.
[quote]
Forget moving from clinical disorder to healthful state, because from what I remember all those big guys who leaned out and reported better results were never diseased to begin with… they just optimized their sensitivity.[/quote]
I wasn’t “diseased” when I was heavier, but getting around was harder at my heavier weight so again, the changes involves not just FAT but conditioning.
[quote]
If you DO feel that there is some specific point where it all goes to shit… then, let’s here where you think it is. [/quote]
Never said this anywhere and don’t believe it.
[quote]
If you don’t, then I really can’t see how you can argue against the benefits of dropping body fat on insulin sensitivity,[/quote]
I am not arguing against dropping body fat I am against people saying body fat decreases alone equal better insulin sensitivity.
Do you understand now?
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
BEST THREAD[/quote]
No…but now, WE DANCE!![/quote]
lol where do you find these pictures
I will respond to anything else later as I have a busy day. Hopefully my stance is clearer now.
No one is saying obesity does not affect insulin.
No one is saying that dropping fat does not affect insulin at all.
We are talking about making a statement of direct affect on insulin levels from small changes in body fat alone.
Large changes in body fat would usually imply a change in conditioning as well.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am not arguing against dropping body fat affecting insulin levels because more goes into how a person changes when they do drop fat.
[/quote]
So dropping body fat changes not just insulin sensitivity, but other stuff too. Huh.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
BEST THREAD[/quote]
No…but now, WE DANCE!![/quote]
[/quote]
Sometimes, even when things go wrong, you… just… gotta… DANCE.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
\
Once again, the scientific point was being made that NO, we dio not have proof tyhat body fat alone directly affects insulin resistance.
If you do have that proof, then show it and discuss it.
[/quote]
Third time I’ve post this for you now:
[quote] You’ll probably ignore this again, too
Figure 1.
Endocrine, inflammatory, and neuronal pathways link obesity to insulin resistance. (A) The obesity-associated increase in FAs can trigger insulin resistance through intracellular metabolites that activate PKC, leading to the activation of serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (B) Obesity-associated changes in secretion of adipokines that modulate insulin signaling. (C) Obesity-associated inflammatory factors. Obesity is characterized by an increase in the accumulation of ATMs, which increase the adipose tissue production of inflammatory cytokines that inhibit insulin signaling. (D) Endocrine and inflammatory mediators converging on serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (E) Obesity-associated activation of NF-κB heightens inflammatory responses that exacerbate insulin resistance. (F) SOCS family proteins, induced by adipokines, induce insulin resistance either by interfering with IRS-1 and IRS-2 tyrosine phosphorylation or by targeting IRS-1 and IRS-2 for proteosomal degradation. (G) FAs also trigger insulin resistance by direct activation of TLR4 and the innate immune response. (H) Obesity-related alteration in the central response to hormonal and nutrient signals alters peripheral insulin sensitivity. [/quote]
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Body fat plays a role, but again, when people take that and start saying “fat decreases increase insulin sensitivity” as a final statement, they are not quoting what we have actually found in studies.
[/quote]
Again.
[quote]
Figure 1.
Endocrine, inflammatory, and neuronal pathways link obesity to insulin resistance. (A) The obesity-associated increase in FAs can trigger insulin resistance through intracellular metabolites that activate PKC, leading to the activation of serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (B) Obesity-associated changes in secretion of adipokines that modulate insulin signaling. (C) Obesity-associated inflammatory factors. Obesity is characterized by an increase in the accumulation of ATMs, which increase the adipose tissue production of inflammatory cytokines that inhibit insulin signaling. (D) Endocrine and inflammatory mediators converging on serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (E) Obesity-associated activation of NF-κB heightens inflammatory responses that exacerbate insulin resistance. (F) SOCS family proteins, induced by adipokines, induce insulin resistance either by interfering with IRS-1 and IRS-2 tyrosine phosphorylation or by targeting IRS-1 and IRS-2 for proteosomal degradation. (G) FAs also trigger insulin resistance by direct activation of TLR4 and the innate immune response. (H) Obesity-related alteration in the central response to hormonal and nutrient signals alters peripheral insulin sensitivity. [/quote]
[quote]Professor X wrote:
No one said it is not a significant factor. It was said that you can not make a direct CAUSATION between fat and insulin resistance especially in a trained individual. That is because the CONDITION of being overweight involves many factors other than just body fat.
Just clearing that up for you since you seem to see words that are not written.[/quote]
ORLY?
[quote]
Figure 1.
Endocrine, inflammatory, and neuronal pathways link obesity to insulin resistance. (A) The obesity-associated increase in FAs can trigger insulin resistance through intracellular metabolites that activate PKC, leading to the activation of serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (B) Obesity-associated changes in secretion of adipokines that modulate insulin signaling. (C) Obesity-associated inflammatory factors. Obesity is characterized by an increase in the accumulation of ATMs, which increase the adipose tissue production of inflammatory cytokines that inhibit insulin signaling. (D) Endocrine and inflammatory mediators converging on serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (E) Obesity-associated activation of NF-κB heightens inflammatory responses that exacerbate insulin resistance. (F) SOCS family proteins, induced by adipokines, induce insulin resistance either by interfering with IRS-1 and IRS-2 tyrosine phosphorylation or by targeting IRS-1 and IRS-2 for proteosomal degradation. (G) FAs also trigger insulin resistance by direct activation of TLR4 and the innate immune response. (H) Obesity-related alteration in the central response to hormonal and nutrient signals alters peripheral insulin sensitivity. [/quote]
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
Are you implying many “full housers” aren’t at a high enough body fat to qualify for this label? Or many of the people on this forum bulking up right now?
[/quote]
Nope. I am saying specifically once again THAT FAT ALONE DOES NOT HAVE A DIRECT AFFECT ON INSULIN RESISTANCE FROM WHAT i HAVE SEEN IN STUDIES when dealing with trained individuals who are NOT obese or heavy enough to hamper conditioning.
[quote]
So, if you can manage to keep up without relying on ONLY the obese, we can move forward, though just to be clear I am completely certain you were talking out of you ass with the “studies we’ve seen” comment.[/quote]
I surely wasn’t. We are talking about a population of trained individuals. BMI studies do not represent us well.
[quote]
Look. We already know about the biochemical and endocrine aspects of fat tissue; numerous examples have been given in this thread. We also know that most (not all) of these biochemical and endocrine aspects have negative effects on insulin sensitivity, and have defined various mechanisms by which they exert their effects. We also know that these negative biochemical and endocrine aspects are strongly correlated with adipose tissue in a positive fashion.
Are you arguing against this? If not, then what?[/quote]
I already stated what several times.
[quote]
You already agree that obesity leads to hormonal changes yet don’t want to admit that we ALSO know being overweight does,[/quote]
Uh, I see those as being nearly the same since BMI studies do not usually represent extremely muscular people
[quote]
Do you genuinely not feel that there is a sliding scale here, that this sort of thing doesn’t just crop up past a certain threshold but rather develops insidiously over years of increasing fat gain?[/quote]
The point I made was that it is a CONDITION of the human body based on may factors.
[quote]
You argue about “trained” athletes… so, OK: for any individual athlete at a given level of largely immutable daily activity and behavior, do you honestly feel that no change WHATSOEVER in his/her insulin sensitivity could be quantitatively determined if he/she went from full house to lean?[/quote]
I am sure there would be changes, just not from body fat a lone in terms of “x amount of fat gain equals x amount of insulin resistance”.
[quote]
Forget moving from clinical disorder to healthful state, because from what I remember all those big guys who leaned out and reported better results were never diseased to begin with… they just optimized their sensitivity.[/quote]
I wasn’t “diseased” when I was heavier, but getting around was harder at my heavier weight so again, the changes involves not just FAT but conditioning.
[quote]
If you DO feel that there is some specific point where it all goes to shit… then, let’s here where you think it is. [/quote]
Never said this anywhere and don’t believe it.
Again. Direct physiological mechanism.
[quote]
Figure 1.
Endocrine, inflammatory, and neuronal pathways link obesity to insulin resistance. (A) The obesity-associated increase in FAs can trigger insulin resistance through intracellular metabolites that activate PKC, leading to the activation of serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (B) Obesity-associated changes in secretion of adipokines that modulate insulin signaling. (C) Obesity-associated inflammatory factors. Obesity is characterized by an increase in the accumulation of ATMs, which increase the adipose tissue production of inflammatory cytokines that inhibit insulin signaling. (D) Endocrine and inflammatory mediators converging on serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (E) Obesity-associated activation of NF-κB heightens inflammatory responses that exacerbate insulin resistance. (F) SOCS family proteins, induced by adipokines, induce insulin resistance either by interfering with IRS-1 and IRS-2 tyrosine phosphorylation or by targeting IRS-1 and IRS-2 for proteosomal degradation. (G) FAs also trigger insulin resistance by direct activation of TLR4 and the innate immune response. (H) Obesity-related alteration in the central response to hormonal and nutrient signals alters peripheral insulin sensitivity. [/quote]
I think if you weigh under 180lbs after 5 years of training you are doing something wrong
In case you can’t see his posts.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
\
Once again, the scientific point was being made that NO, we dio not have proof tyhat body fat alone directly affects insulin resistance.
If you do have that proof, then show it and discuss it.
[/quote]
Third time I’ve post this for you now:
[quote] You’ll probably ignore this again, too
Figure 1.
Endocrine, inflammatory, and neuronal pathways link obesity to insulin resistance. (A) The obesity-associated increase in FAs can trigger insulin resistance through intracellular metabolites that activate PKC, leading to the activation of serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (B) Obesity-associated changes in secretion of adipokines that modulate insulin signaling. (C) Obesity-associated inflammatory factors. Obesity is characterized by an increase in the accumulation of ATMs, which increase the adipose tissue production of inflammatory cytokines that inhibit insulin signaling. (D) Endocrine and inflammatory mediators converging on serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (E) Obesity-associated activation of NF-�ºB heightens inflammatory responses that exacerbate insulin resistance. (F) SOCS family proteins, induced by adipokines, induce insulin resistance either by interfering with IRS-1 and IRS-2 tyrosine phosphorylation or by targeting IRS-1 and IRS-2 for proteosomal degradation. (G) FAs also trigger insulin resistance by direct activation of TLR4 and the innate immune response. (H) Obesity-related alteration in the central response to hormonal and nutrient signals alters peripheral insulin sensitivity. [/quote][/quote]
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
I agree as BW increases, lifts should increase, to a certain degree.
[/quote]
Thus the point of this thread.
if lifts are increasing, it is safe to say some muscle is being gained.[/quote]
Nope. Many have said powerlifters increase fat mass for the sole purpose of increasing lifts.[/quote]
Uh…then you agree with me.
Then why think that body mass gain alone does NOT aid in gaining muscle mass at all if it helps in strength gains?[/quote]
The fact that you think it’s “safe to say muscle is being gained if lifts are increasing” is absurd. Maybe your professors skipped over the central nervous system in the entirety of your academic career?
Also, according to you, increasing fat will improve leverages, thus improve strength levels. So if someone were to gain 20lbs of PURE FAT (PURE FAT, NOT MUSCLE. PURE FAT), their leverages would improve and thus they’d get stronger. So what you’re saying, really, is that it is possible to get stronger without gaining ANY muscle.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
\
Once again, the scientific point was being made that NO, we dio not have proof tyhat body fat alone directly affects insulin resistance.
If you do have that proof, then show it and discuss it.
[/quote]
Third time I’ve post this for you now:
[quote] You’ll probably ignore this again, too
Figure 1.
Endocrine, inflammatory, and neuronal pathways link obesity to insulin resistance. (A) The obesity-associated increase in FAs can trigger insulin resistance through intracellular metabolites that activate PKC, leading to the activation of serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (B) Obesity-associated changes in secretion of adipokines that modulate insulin signaling. (C) Obesity-associated inflammatory factors. Obesity is characterized by an increase in the accumulation of ATMs, which increase the adipose tissue production of inflammatory cytokines that inhibit insulin signaling. (D) Endocrine and inflammatory mediators converging on serine/threonine kinases that inhibit insulin signaling. (E) Obesity-associated activation of NF-�ºB heightens inflammatory responses that exacerbate insulin resistance. (F) SOCS family proteins, induced by adipokines, induce insulin resistance either by interfering with IRS-1 and IRS-2 tyrosine phosphorylation or by targeting IRS-1 and IRS-2 for proteosomal degradation. (G) FAs also trigger insulin resistance by direct activation of TLR4 and the innate immune response. (H) Obesity-related alteration in the central response to hormonal and nutrient signals alters peripheral insulin sensitivity. [/quote][/quote]
Ignorus maximus this shall be.
what I’ve learned from this thread:
-if I get my bodyweight up to 300 lbs, I too can someday sumo deadlift 300 lbs
-gaining fat won’t mess with my insulin sensitivity as long as I work out
-fat gain leads to higher levels of fatty acids in interstitial fluid, which will of course stretch fascia
-there is a such thing a sarcoplasmic sheath, and humans with marbled quads
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
You truly are the new Rogue Vampire.[/quote]
He’s gone over the top in his trolling.[/quote]
Agreed.
It’s worrying because he either genuinely believes his points are sane and correct or his life is that empty he wishes to just troll people with some genuine insight on matters.
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
what I’ve learned from this thread:
-if I get my bodyweight up to 300 lbs, I too can someday sumo deadlift 300 lbs
-gaining fat won’t mess with my insulin sensitivity as long as I work out
-fat gain leads to higher levels of fatty acids in interstitial fluid, which will of course stretch fascia
-there is a such thing a sarcoplasmic sheath, and humans with marbled quads
[/quote]
You had me at bodyweight sumo deadlift. lol
[quote]Professor X wrote:
But, I would expect to see similar even if significant body fat was NOT lost assuming the person wasn’t very fat to start with.
[/quote]
Again, what leads you to believe this? what study did you see? There is nothing to insinuate fat only effects insulin sensitivity once you get obese. In fact, the studies show it to be linear for the amount of fat. But I’ve asked for your reasons for believing this already and got nothing.
Fat kills.